Harry’s Farm and Garage. Why does Harry Metcalfe hate the Grenadier?

[RavenVoice]

What is it with this Forum? Why always trying to discredit JLR products, horses for courses and it's also getting very tedious.

Umm, I don’t see anybody trying to discredit JLR on here. The fact is that the JLR faithful are continually trying to unjustly discredit the Grenadier by using the Defender as the measuring stick. Grenadier owners responding to these arguments with uncomfortable truths for modern Land Rover owners does not equal us trying to discredit JLR.

 

[longwhiteline98]

Umm, I don’t see anybody trying to discredit JLR on here. The fact is that the JLR faithful are continually trying to unjustly discredit the Grenadier by using the Defender as the measuring stick. Grenadier owners responding to these arguments with uncomfortable truths for modern Land Rover owners does not equal us trying to discredit JLR.

I wouldn’t call myself a JLR faithful. I think the key distinction I’m making is that many on this forum see it as in inherent attack that the Grenadier can be compared to the L663. My argument is that they are more similar than not, and that is not an attack but a criticism in context of the IG’s design ethos. I’m not discrediting the IG by any stretch, only pointing out that the reality of the final product isn’t what many here seemingly want to see it as. As I said before, this is an exercise in cognitive dissonance. But, after all this time in development and years of marketing jargon, I can’t really blame everyone.

 

[pioneerofthenile]

he makes some good points. as a potential owner the rear visibility and bad blind spots is a concern for me. the heft and weight of this tank might make for a cumbersome ride as well. the steering seems like it could be a problem, but many are saying it's easy to get use to.

but it is what it is.

he said that a pro of the IG is that it exists. which is true. (I personally wish ineos did a 90 series homage instead of the 110)

any new owners have a problem free car yet?

I'm hanging on but I will say that if the new LC is anything like the vintage 70 series seems like a solid alternative at an even lower price and known solid reliability and construction

 

[RavenVoice]

I wouldn’t call myself a JLR faithful. I think the key distinction I’m making is that many on this forum see it as in inherent attack that the Grenadier can be compared to the L663. My argument is that they are more similar than not, and that is not an attack but a criticism in context of the IG’s design ethos. I’m not discrediting the IG by any stretch, only pointing out that the reality of the final product isn’t what many here seemingly want to see it as. As I said before, this is an exercise in cognitive dissonance. But, after all this time in development and years of marketing jargon, I can’t really blame everyone.

I wasn’t talking about you buddy I was talking about the person whom is the actual topic of this thread (Mr Harry Metcalfe) & others of his ilk.

Again though, while I do respect your opinion, I disagree with your conclusions. I actually own a Grenadier, it is exactly what I want it to be, my opinion is not based on what I “want it to be”, nor is it based upon the opinions of social media influencers with alterior motives. Again, different strokes for different folks, buy what is closest to what you’re looking for & hopefully it makes you happy.

 

[Tazzieman]

As I said before, this is an exercise in cognitive dissonance.

We need to steer into Harry's field and pull out the picnic table.
Assonance recasts dissonance - with most of its stresses removed, to steer belief and reality into resonance that’s experienced as consonance.

 

[RavenVoice]

he makes some good points. as a potential owner the rear visibility and bad blind spots is a concern for me. the heft and weight of this tank might make for a cumbersome ride as well. the steering seems like it could be. problem, but many are saying it's easy to get use to. but it is what it is. (I personally wish ineos did a 90 series homage instead) he said that a pro of the IG is that it exists. which is true. any new owners have a problem free car yet?

I'm hanging on but I will say that if the new LC is anything like the vintage 70 series seems like a solid alternative at an even lower price and known solid reliability and construction

There is no blind spot & the footrest is a non-issue if you position the seat correctly (high & close like you’re driving a 4x4; not low & far like you’re driving a sports car). Steering is what you would expect of a 4x4, not what you would expect of an SUV (this is an advantage for what 4x4s are actually intended for but a disadvantage for a more road focused vehicle like an SUV).

It’s these sorts of things being raised as an issue in reviews that highlights the fact that these two cars are designed with a different primary focus (although there is some overlap of course) & that comparison between them in non-sensical. People whom raise these things as a problem are more SUV types that would likely be happier with the Defender, people who are more true 4x4 types will likely prefer the Grenadier. Again: different vehicles, designed for different purposes & different people.

 

[RoyalWulff]

Grenadier isn’t for everybody and nor should it be. For me, the uniqueness of it, combined with back story were a compelling reason to own one. Have driven mine for nearly five weeks, it’s the heft of the thing, its capability, the engine noise (diesel of course) the subtle drive line whine, the power transfer you feel going on underneath gives it character.. every time I get in it, it makes me feel i’m really “going somewhere” as you have to engage with it. That’s missing from most vehicles nowadays..

Yes it has some niggles, it likes a drink but there’s literally nothing like it on the market.
In breeding terms it is a cross between a BMW 5 series and a Unimog - the axles are literally from a tractor… Reviews be damned….
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Man this is so spot on!! I’m glad you share this perspective vs the negative nellies who want to compare it to a Ford or Toyota … mass production, plastic wake me up when those guys launch something that takes risk or builds on their heritage. This stands alone in my eyes.

 

[mikemike39]

There is no blind spot & the footrest is a non-issue if you position the seat correctly (high & close like you’re driving a 4x4; not low & far like you’re driving a sports car). Steering is what you would expect of a 4x4, not what you would expect of an SUV (this is an advantage for what 4x4s are actually intended for but a disadvantage for a more road focused vehicle like an SUV).

It’s these sorts of things being raised as an issue in reviews that highlights the fact that these two cars are designed with a different primary focus (although there is some overlap of course) & that comparison between them in non-sensical. People whom raise these things as a problem are more SUV types that would likely be happier with the Defender, people who are more true 4x4 types will likely prefer the Grenadier. Again: different vehicles, designed for different purposes & different people.

Exactly my experience with the vehicle. I find all these "issues" complete non issues with the Grenadier.

If you want an SUV optimised for long motorway journeys get an Audi Q7, Mercedes GLE, new Defender even - or as I have an L405 Range Rover. It's great. But I want and have a Grenadier as well!

 

[Fidei Defensor]

I think you’re missing my point. I’m not providing commentary on the new Defender, nor am I singling out any features as comparison. I’m suggesting that as a package (I.e. all of the above combined), the Grenadier makes no sense. If you are going to deal with the added complication of heated seats, a digital speedo, digitally controlled lockers, etc why not also have advanced safety features such as lane keep assist, autonomous emergency breaking, and blind spot monitoring? As I think about it, it sounds like I’ve perhaps talked myself into agreeing (in some ways) with Mr. Metcalfe’s take.

This vehicle was originally touted to be free of all the above nonsense at a fraction of the cost. You don’t buy a Grenadier because you want those luxury/comfort features, you buy it because you want a dead-nuts reliable vehicle without gizmos at $50k USD. As it stands, we have a vehicle that’s halfway 2023 and halfway 1995 - and not in a good way. It’s missing a hell of a lot of features at $72k entry USD. Perhaps it’s a better value proposition overseas.

You seem to be hung up on a few minor electronic elements of the Grenadier and totally forgetting the basic design and components that have not changed from the original concept. A simple, coil sprung solid axle, properly located and built from heavy-duty components (from premium manufacturers) that should give long, reliable service. And "Harry" totally ignored this. He "poo-pooed" the idea of a proper had-brake (preferring the electronically controlled brake in the Defender!). And the fact that he is a consultant for JLR should perhaps explain his evident bias.
All the forum members that have been around for a long time have bemoaned certain compromises that Ineos had to make in order to get Sit Jim's vision to production reality. But the compromises are liveable and do not detract from the "bones" of the project.
Which is why many of us are putting our money down on one.....

 

[lightning]

Yes the load space in my 90 Commercial is quite small. Although it's good enough for me.
lt's about the same size as the rear of an old Defender 90.
The 110 is better of course but l didn't need the space, although it would have been useful to be able to sleep in the back on occasions, something l wouldn't fancy doing in my 90.

The Grenadier looks better in this respect but it will be, as it's effectively a 110. l still want one.

 

[Tanters]

l didn't feel the negative vibes in the review as much as many people have.

He had the Defender on loan for 12 months.
l think if he kept the Grenadier it would almost certainly have grown on him. A week is not enough, particularly to get to grips with a vehicle like a Grenadier.

I too would like a loan of a car for 12 months ….. how does one go about doing that then? I don’t know anything about Harry and only came across his reviews because of the IG angle ….. algorithms doing their thang
‘LR head doesn’t like NKOTB’ fair enough. Slowly but surely the positive views are outweighing the not positive ones. Time to prove itself will be the solution her

 

[Fidei Defensor]

I wouldn’t call myself a JLR faithful. I think the key distinction I’m making is that many on this forum see it as in inherent attack that the Grenadier can be compared to the L663. My argument is that they are more similar than not, and that is not an attack but a criticism in context of the IG’s design ethos. I’m not discrediting the IG by any stretch, only pointing out that the reality of the final product isn’t what many here seemingly want to see it as. As I said before, this is an exercise in cognitive dissonance. But, after all this time in development and years of marketing jargon, I can’t really blame everyone.

When you have to disparage people who try and explain why they like the Grenadier and dislike the LR Defender by floating the term "cognative dissonance", you lose me..... And your argument that they (IG and New Defender) are more similar than not perhaps is the true example of cognative dissonance.......

 

[longwhiteline98]

When you have to disparage people who try and explain why they like the Grenadier and dislike the LR Defender by floating the term "cognative dissonance", you lose me..... And your argument that they (IG and New Defender) are more similar than not perhaps is the true example of cognative dissonance.......

I’m not attempting to disparage anyone’s likes or opinions. I see many on here acting as if by buying a Grenadier they are setting themselves apart from those who own other 4x4s. That the others are somehow “pretenders” and this product, which has barely even begun to ship, nevermind seen real use, is different. That, in and of itself, is disparaging.

This is a forum, we can discuss these things in good faith. At its root, I am only highlighting that there is a slight bit of hypocrisy in the underlying premise behind the marketing of this vehicle. Time will tell if I’m right, but as someone who’s actually driven (and at one time was prepared to purchase) both - these are my opinions.

 

[lightning]

l am told that Harry's Garage actually leased their Defender and weren't given it on long term loan.

 

[RavenVoice]

I’m not attempting to disparage anyone’s likes or opinions. I see many on here acting as if by buying a Grenadier they are setting themselves apart from those who own other 4x4s. That the others are somehow “pretenders” and this product, which has barely even begun to ship, nevermind seen real use, is different. That, in and of itself, is disparaging.

This is nonsense (especially on this specific thread); the people whom you are accusing here (myself included) are simply responding to people criticising our vehicles with invalid & irrelevant points because of either ulterior motives or basic misunderstanding of the product; furthermore, the only reason we’re bothering to respond in the first place is because it’s extremely misleading for people whom are genuinely interested in the vehicle (of which I counted you one which is why I responded to you in the first place) & we’re trying to be helpful. Pointing out that the comparisons being made are nonsensical & from a biased perspective, as well as pointing out that there’s a fundamental difference between a true 4x4 & an SUV & that one’s expectations need to be appropriate for the vehicle type, is not ‘setting ourselves apart’ or calling others ‘pretenders’.

I’ll say it again: it’s about knowing what makes sense for your own needs & making your choice accordingly. There’s nothing wrong with an SUV if that fits your needs, but for the love of god stop criticising a purpose built true 4x4 because it’s not a perfect SUV (it’s not supposed to be)!

 

[Tazzieman]

Roses are red , violets are blue , depending upon their velocity relative to you
- Fred Doppler

 

[lightning]

l've got a customer who has a new Defender 110 and a Grenadier.
So he probably argues with himself all day and night about the relative merits of each vehicle

 

[DaveB]

I mean, if we’re narrowing the goalposts on what “build quality” is, should we first pay recognition to both the L663 and IG having BMW engines? Both sharing the same ZF 8 speed transmission? Both using largely aluminum body construction?

I would also impart that it isn’t an “attack” on the IG to compare it to the L663. Ineos made many decisions in respect to the vehicles’ design which ultimately aligns it with the new Defender. People will cross shop between the two - regardless of live axles or IFS. My criticism of the IG is that it IS similar to my L663, I really wanted it to be different.

I will add that the Disco Sport is perhaps the most unreliable model LR ever made, but that doesn’t discredit your experience. I would never buy a Disco Sport, lol.

I looked at and test drove the New Defender, among many others vehicles, before deciding on the Grenadier.
Great vehicle but in order to get close to my Grenadier specification the price was ridiculous and way over my budget.
Delivery was also over a year, but up to 2 years, and price and specification wasn't guaranteed.
so that leaves the second hand market.
My Grenadier is AUD$121K on road
Here is a similar spec 2021 model Defender for AUD$150K plus onroad costs.
It can probably go everywhere on and off road that my Grenadier can but no roo bar is a major problem and as far as I know none is available.
It is an attractive looking vehicle but to me it is very much like a woman who always wears lots of makeup and looks beautiful.
I much prefer a woman who may not be as beautiful but is naturally attractive without all the bling.

 

[PanoramaJJ]

When I want a Grenadier then I don´t think I will get a perfect car. I´ve never driven a perfect car yet.
Every vehicle has it owns positives and negatives - and you have to think about what is your right choice.
The old Defender has never been a perfect car. Even my old Land Cruiser is not perfect - the suspension, the noise, the steering, many things are awful - but I LOVE IT. Many people love Caterhams, love Lotus Super Seven, drive CAN AM buggys. They all are crazy cars, so the drivers have to be a little bit crazy, too.
But they don´t have to be AGAINST ANY OTHER CARS. Why should they? I think we don´t need a discussion about these themes.
We are friends, we have the same spleen.
SEE YOU!

 

[acwiltshire]

Grenadier isn’t for everybody and nor should it be. For me, the uniqueness of it, combined with back story were a compelling reason to own one. Have driven mine for nearly five weeks, it’s the heft of the thing, its capability, the engine noise (diesel of course) the subtle drive line whine, the power transfer you feel going on underneath gives it character.. every time I get in it, it makes me feel i’m really “going somewhere” as you have to engage with it. That’s missing from most vehicles nowadays..

Yes it has some niggles, it likes a drink but there’s literally nothing like it on the market.
In breeding terms it is a cross between a BMW 5 series and a Unimog - the axles are literally from a tractor… Reviews be damned….
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You've nailed the spirit . You've explained the sounds and the feeling that transmits through the wheel , the seat and the shell of the beast.
Only had mine since 10th May and pitifully managed 250 miles due to a holiday. However everyone waiting for theirs should know to expect these amazing vibes. Slam the bank vault door and it says we're safe, what do you want from this drive .........