Harry’s Farm and Garage. Why does Harry Metcalfe hate the Grenadier?

[DaveB]

Some of us just prefer the quieter, smoother and more powerful petrol option.

It's good we have both options

 

[DCPU]

lf it's anything like the old Defender, the front lock stops can be adjusted to reduce the turning circle. They are set conservatively as standard to account for various wheels that could be fitted by owners.

Where are you getting that from?

 

[Ever Pragmatic]

I also watched the review and recalled Harry's Defender comments... I thought his opinion of the Grenadier seemed uninformed. Like he had a very cursory read of a brochure, and that was it.
I watched Harry's Bentley Bentayga review. My existing VW Touareg R V8 has maybe 90% of the Bentayga's fluffy bits ... The VW, at a fraction of the money, was a great capable drive when new but .... now, after 90K, the "clever bits" are failing.... they are not kinda Bosch generic, and is that not what we all want? Simple basic stuff that we can tinker with?

Harry's was, to my mind, a one-eyed opinion. OUR choice of a Grenadier is that it is not meant to be up there as the Bentley Bentayga with a growl, the fruits and excess of a $350K vehicle - We are here on this forum as many of us are sick of the BS of computers and button brakes. An old bloke like me cannot wait to get my Grenadier with HANDBRAKE!

Funny you mentioned the hand brake as i has taken me a while to get in the habit of using it.. it‘s very satisfying in operation, even more so knowing that the cable run is visable under the back seats.. proper old school.

 

[longwhiteline98]

I also watched the review and recalled Harry's Defender comments... I thought his opinion of the Grenadier seemed uninformed. Like he had a very cursory read of a brochure, and that was it.
I watched Harry's Bentley Bentayga review. My existing VW Touareg R V8 has maybe 90% of the Bentayga's fluffy bits ... The VW, at a fraction of the money, was a great capable drive when new but .... now, after 90K, the "clever bits" are failing.... they are not kinda Bosch generic, and is that not what we all want? Simple basic stuff that we can tinker with?

Harry's was, to my mind, a one-eyed opinion. OUR choice of a Grenadier is that it is not meant to be up there as the Bentley Bentayga with a growl, the fruits and excess of a $350K vehicle - We are here on this forum as many of us are sick of the BS of computers and button brakes. An old bloke like me cannot wait to get my Grenadier with HANDBRAKE!

I think the main hang-up I have with the Grenadier is that it does have the same electric functions these other vehicles share, and is reportedly already suffering problems with them. I would’ve held on to my reservation for dear life if it was what it was initially advertised to be: a no-nonsense off-roader. Yet here we are, with a digital center speedo, infotainment, heated leather seats, etc at $72k starting price in the US. I want this vehicle at its initially advertised price without the aforementioned junk.

I see posters on here disillusioned into thinking that this is somehow different from other modern vehicles in this respect. It is a cosplay of the image portrayed by the old Defender. I think Harry’s review reflects merely his opinion; that the Grenadier could be improved if Ineos bought into the possibilities of todays tech. And, in that respect, I disagree with him. The entire initial premise of this vehicle was an offering free of the nonsense, and it appears to be anything-but. I’ve said it on here before, it seems apparent to me that Ineos was to scared too go in either direction - so here we are, with what I see as a lukewarm result/reception.

But, in retrospect, im not sure that’s even possible to produce for the mass market in 2023’s world of regulations.

 

[emax]

VW Touareg R V8 has maybe 90% of the Bentayga's fluffy bits

But it isn't a Bentley.

 

[bemax]

I

Where are you getting that from?

Don’t know where he got it from but I did let adjust the steering lock as well after mounting new rims. It didn’t helped much but something.

 

[longwhiteline98]

But it isn't a Bentley.

Assuredly a VW Toureg is 90% a Bentley. You can’t make this up.

 

[DaveB]

I think the main hang-up I have with the Grenadier is that it does have the same electric functions these other vehicles share, and is reportedly already suffering problems with them. I would’ve held on to my reservation for dear life if it was what it was initially advertised to be: a no-nonsense off-roader. Yet here we are, with a digital center speedo, infotainment, heated leather seats, etc at $72k starting price in the US. I want this vehicle at its initially advertised price without the aforementioned junk.

I see posters on here disillusioned into thinking that this is somehow different from other modern vehicles in this respect. It is a cosplay of the image portrayed by the old Defender. I think Harry’s review reflects merely his opinion; that the Grenadier could be improved if Ineos bought into the possibilities of todays tech. And, in that respect, I disagree with him. The entire initial premise of this vehicle was an offering free of the nonsense, and it appears to be anything-but. I’ve said it on here before, it seems apparent to me that Ineos was to scared too go in either direction - so here we are, with what I see as a lukewarm result/reception.

But, in retrospect, im not sure that’s even possible to produce for the mass market in 2023’s world of regulations.

Sir Jim commented well over a year ago that he was also disappointed that some of the electronics had to be included, against his wishes, to pass global vehicle laws so it could be sold and registered on the road.
For instance in Australia you must have
ESC
ABS
Reversing camera
Airbags

I am not aware of any vehicle that has an analogue speedo/tacho anymore.
Some have digital ones made to look like them.

At least we have a proper handbrake and transfer case lever.
Shame the diff locks weren't just rocker switches.

 

[longwhiteline98]

Sir Jim commented well over a year ago that he was also disappointed that some of the electronics had to be included, against his wishes, to pass global vehicle laws so it could be sold and registered on the road.
For instance in Australia you must have
ESC
ABS
Reversing camera
Airbags

I am not aware of any vehicle that has an analogue speedo/tacho anymore.
Some have digital ones made to look like them.

At least we have a proper handbrake and transfer case lever.
Shame the diff locks weren't just rocker switches.

I am by no means opposed to added safety tech, of which I feel the vehicle is still lacking. I am opposed to all the bloated luxury components that were added/available as options. There were certainly no shortage of questionable design decisions made if the true end-goal of this product was to be a utility-focused vehicle. There are plenty of modern vehicles offering analog dials, even the new Defender has them as an option. But that’s beside the point.

Perhaps the product may have come to market cheaper and more successfully if Ineos were able to streamline production to one core model w/ dealer installed add-ons. Why is there even an option for heated leather seats? In what way does this fit the ethos of the IG to begin with? Do we really need 3 vaguely differentiated trims?

I am of the opinion that Ineos shifted away from the utilitarian ideal they originally proposed and instead went upmarket. I stand by my comment that the Grenadier, while equally capable, is not all that dissimilar from the new Defender in the end.

 

[lightning]

Where are you getting that from?

l have owned five old Defenders and l adjusted the lock stops on two of them. On the 110 it made quite a difference.

Obviously you can only adjust it a certain amount or the wheels touch the steering arm on full lock

 

[Tu Sugars]

But it isn't a Bentley.

I have a mate with a Bentayga - If she allowed I might be allowed to buy one ... but we both reckon the Bentley is only another Volkswagen with a nice clock.

 

[Tazzieman]

the Bentley is only another Volkswagen with a nice clock.

Sounds like the Touareg vs Cayenne brotherhood

 

[Tu Sugars]

It sounds like the Touareg vs Cayenne Brotherhood

Pretty much... I have owned 17 VWs... and the best was a 1962 Beetle ... no rust, straight as a die ... the best engine was a 1997 POLO 1600...
The sweetest-looking was the earliest squarish Sirocco, a 4-cylinder AUDI engine four-speed box!! But a Porsche ... yeah - Nah!
Everybody looks at a Porsche, and my neighbourhood is filled with plenty. Let them draw all the attention.
I prefer my vehicles in a kinda "vanilla"... I can potter around and be neutral ... My IG is ordered in WHITE with WHITE. Quiet Vanilla!

 

[Tazzieman]

Pretty much... I have owned 17 VWs... and the best was a 1962 Beetle ... no rust, straight as a die ... the best engine was a 1997 POLO 1600...
The sweetest-looking was the earliest squarish Sirocco, a 4-cylinder AUDI engine four-speed box!! But a Porsche ... yeah - Nah!
Everybody looks at a Porsche, and my neighbourhood is filled with plenty. Let them draw all the attention.
I prefer my vehicles in a kinda "vanilla"... I can potter around and be neutral ... My IG is ordered in WHITE with WHITE. Quiet Vanilla!

I've accumulated 3 old Porsches but I don't really have a neighbourhood!
I wanted them for their simplicity, lack of corrosion (all galvanised), engineering quality and 4,6,8 cylinder choice. Not for the cachet.

 

[DCPU]

I am by no means opposed to added safety tech, of which I feel the vehicle is still lacking.

What's it missing?

I am opposed to all the bloated luxury components that were added/available as options.

Ambient lighting is the only one that sticks out for me, what else had you considered?

There were certainly no shortage of questionable design decisions made if the true end-goal of this product was to be a utility-focused vehicle. There are plenty of modern vehicles offering analog dials, even the new Defender has them as an option.

I think a number of vehicles spec'd with the more expensive digital dash were actually delivered with analogue dashes and no adjustment to price.

Perhaps the product may have come to market cheaper and more successfully if Ineos were able to streamline production to one core model w/ dealer installed add-ons. Why is there even an option for heated leather seats?

Heated seats can work well in cold weather. Leather seats seems to be something some people feel strongly about; and it's only a different seat cover after all.

I stand by my comment that the Grenadier, while equally capable, is not all that dissimilar from the new Defender in the end.

In what context? Not in terms of the majority of core elements.

 

[Tu Sugars]

I've accumulated 3 old Porsches but I don't really have a neighbourhood!
I wanted them for their simplicity, lack of corrosion (all galvanised), engineering quality and 4,6,8 cylinder choice. Not for the cachet.

In my neighbourhood, our locals - many are the nouveau rich - so few of them recognise the Porsche for what is stunning design and panache... They see them as trendy, maybe with a little entitlement. New job, new car, all a bit much for my age.
I did once ponder a 924 but got married instead! If the 924 was my choice then it may have changed my life... The wife did not last that long! ...
When the IG finally arrives I will quietly get it dirty and attempt to blend in. The great unwashed truck out on the lawn.

 

[longwhiteline98]

What's it missing?


Ambient lighting is the only one that sticks out for me, what else had you considered?


I think a number of vehicles spec'd with the more expensive digital dash were actually delivered with analogue dashes and no adjustment to price.


Heated seats can work well in cold weather. Leather seats seems to be something some people feel strongly about; and it's only a different seat cover after all.


In what context? Not in terms of the majority of core elements.

I think you’re missing my point. I’m not providing commentary on the new Defender, nor am I singling out any features as comparison. I’m suggesting that as a package (I.e. all of the above combined), the Grenadier makes no sense. If you are going to deal with the added complication of heated seats, a digital speedo, digitally controlled lockers, etc why not also have advanced safety features such as lane keep assist, autonomous emergency breaking, and blind spot monitoring? As I think about it, it sounds like I’ve perhaps talked myself into agreeing (in some ways) with Mr. Metcalfe’s take.

This vehicle was originally touted to be free of all the above nonsense at a fraction of the cost. You don’t buy a Grenadier because you want those luxury/comfort features, you buy it because you want a dead-nuts reliable vehicle without gizmos at $50k USD. As it stands, we have a vehicle that’s halfway 2023 and halfway 1995 - and not in a good way. It’s missing a hell of a lot of features at $72k entry USD. Perhaps it’s a better value proposition overseas.

 

[RavenVoice]

I think you’re missing my point. I’m not providing commentary on the new Defender, nor am I singling out any features as comparison. I’m suggesting that as a package (I.e. all of the above combined), the Grenadier makes no sense. If you are going to deal with the added complication of heated seats, a digital speedo, digitally controlled lockers, etc why not also have advanced safety features such as lane keep assist, autonomous emergency breaking, and blind spot monitoring? As I think about it, it sounds like I’ve perhaps talked myself into agreeing (in some ways) with Mr. Metcalfe’s take.

This vehicle was originally touted to be free of all the above nonsense at a fraction of the cost. You don’t buy a Grenadier because you want those luxury/comfort features, you buy it because you want a dead-nuts reliable vehicle without gizmos at $50k USD. As it stands, we have a vehicle that’s halfway 2023 and halfway 1995 - and not in a good way. It’s missing a hell of a lot of features at $72k entry USD. Perhaps it’s a better value proposition overseas.

Because you can’t really compare the two (anyone who has seen a Grenadier in the flesh & had the pleasure of driving one will know this). The Grenadier is in a whole other league in terms of build quality than anything that has ever bourne the Land Rover badge (the only thing that could possibly come close is an old G-Class but, as an owner with real experience of the car, that’s even beat by the Gren in my opinion).

On top of this the new Defender is an SUV with some electronically controlled off-road features/gimmicks (a posers vehicle & nothing more if we’re being totally honest); the Grenadier is a true old-skool 4x4 & software issues do not inhibit it’s performance when it comes to driving. I can live with a few overly sensitive warning messages flashing on the screen from time-to-time - I cannot live with a car that will have a hissy-fit, switch into limp mode, prevent me from driving properly & cost me a fortune in continual repair bills that don’t ever really fix anything.

Those who want an SUV for the school & shopping mall runs that they can kit out with useless street-cred accessories (like big plastic side boxes that look like Beats headphones), put their seat in sports-car position & race around the roads breaking the speed-limit will most certainly want the Defender & will despise the Grenadier. Those who want a reliable, take anywhere, last years, built-like-a-tank, true off-roader will be smitten with the Grenadier & never even consider the Defender regardless of what rubbish corporate shills like Harry Metcalfe try to push on people. They’re totally different cars which are built for totally different purposes & for totally different types of people; it’s moronic to compare the two if you ask me. Would you compare a Tesla Model S to a Dodge Charger SRT (tried to make my comparison make sense to those of you on the other side of the pond there ).

I also don’t see why you take issue with the option of adding heating seats etc? For many of us this car is (or will be) a daily driver & a few creature comforts make it a nicer experience without inhibiting the performance of the vehicle in any way; plus, if you don’t want them then simply don’t option them!?

 

[lightning]

l didn't buy my Defender as a "posers vehicle" although the blinged up ones are probably more so.
Mines a base spec 90 HT
You could probably "pose" better in a Grenadier tbh because of its rarity and great looks.

The Defender is flippin' awesome off road. The off road features aren't gimmicks if you actually go off road in the vehicle, although a purist would probably turn off the HDC and traction control.

l l've never seen one racing round the streets breaking the speed limits! ln fact it doesn't encourage that kind of driving. lt certainly feels well built too, l've had no issues with mine.

Having said that, if l wanted an expedition vehicle l would choose the Grenadier. Not that l don't think my Defender would make it, but the Grenadier just looks more fit for purpose.

lf l change my Defender for a Grenadier it will be mainly for the looks of it, and the perceived lifespan. Also the option of a five seat Commercial.

These are both great vehicles and it's good to have a choice.

 

[DaveB]

I think you’re missing my point. I’m not providing commentary on the new Defender, nor am I singling out any features as comparison. I’m suggesting that as a package (I.e. all of the above combined), the Grenadier makes no sense. If you are going to deal with the added complication of heated seats, a digital speedo, digitally controlled lockers, etc why not also have advanced safety features such as lane keep assist, autonomous emergency breaking, and blind spot monitoring? As I think about it, it sounds like I’ve perhaps talked myself into agreeing (in some ways) with Mr. Metcalfe’s take.

This vehicle was originally touted to be free of all the above nonsense at a fraction of the cost. You don’t buy a Grenadier because you want those luxury/comfort features, you buy it because you want a dead-nuts reliable vehicle without gizmos at $50k USD. As it stands, we have a vehicle that’s halfway 2023 and halfway 1995 - and not in a good way. It’s missing a hell of a lot of features at $72k entry USD. Perhaps it’s a better value proposition overseas.

Here you go
One of the most popular 4WD's in Australia and really sounds like what you want from the Grenadier
So popular that Toyota have stopped taking orders.
Only problem is you have to spend at least another $50,000 to make them livable.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMp8tJL7zGs&t=849s

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