General Diesel or Petrol

[globalgregors]

drilling that hole

Interesting approach, I note this wouldn’t have solved the symptom we had with the Disco. I reckon I’d do a physical imspection of the sensor circuit before drilling holes…

 

[AdiThorny]

Interesting approach, I note this wouldn’t have solved the symptom we had with the Disco. I reckon I’d do a physical imspection of the sensor circuit before drilling holes…

ha ha - shows how rubbish I am at mechanical stuff.

 

[IG Pop]

One of my main reasons for ordering a Grenadier is to go overland in Africa. (East, Central, Southern Africa). Part of getting a new vehicle is I am really not great at motor mechanics.

There is definitely inconsistent quality of diesel in these countries. What I haven't got a clear answer from reading above is what actually happens when you end up with High Sulphur Diesel driving around? Will we end up with a vehicle that can't move / go slow / need new PDF?

Apologies is real basic question but is a key question for me.

Doesn’t a clogged DPF potentially backfire in the turbo and in the worst case results in heavy engine damage?

 

[DCPU]

Jury's still out on whether the engine will have the BMW standard service function “Diesel particulate filter regeneration”?

In the case of the Bx7 engines,the regeneration requested via the service function can be performed while stationary.

Thus there might not be a specific button, but the functionality may exist via the service menu?

 

[globalgregors]

Doesn’t a clogged DPF potentially backfire in the turbo and in the worst case results in heavy engine damage?

Not sure how other systems work but in the Disco the ECU is constantly comparing pressure upstream and downstream of the filter element, and triggers a regen and ultimately limp mode accordingly. All of this occurs long before a critical backpressure event (is this what you mean by ‘backfire’?) could happen, although may result in carbonisation/accelerated wear of turbo components if, for instance, Euro 4+ vehicles are operated with high sulfur (1500ppm+) fuels for an extended period. Such is my understanding from chitchat with Land Rover folks in Russia.

 

[painter]

I take my hat off to you for your empirical approach to this. Africa sort of seems OK but still it all scares me... I would just be stuck and drilling that hole in the DPF. Hoping to hear other thoughts...

You might want to find a BMW diesel forum and ask how the BMW ECU might react to high sulfur fuel or a plugged dpf.

My story... we had excessive regen problems with our 2010 Ford light truck, drove ok but got so bad it was almost always in regen = high fuel consumption, runs hot, dilutes oil, must cool down before shutting off. Thought it might stop running.

Dealer could not clean it enough with manual regen so a new DPF was recommended. The part alone was ~2,300 euro plus a 4 day wait. This was in Canada. Truck had <120,000km. Almost all driving had been highway, mountains, at GVWR, little idling, correct fuel, correct oil etc. In other words the truck worked hard and the DPF "shouldn't" have had such a short service life - but sometimes things just go wrong.

Have you considered the petrol version for your trip ?

 

[DaveB]

Check this out at 3:55 he is seriously worried his DPF regen is going to kick in while he is driving through very flammable grass.

 

[cheswick]

In short, the vehicle will go into a (software induced) limp mode when the ECU reports persistent clogging of the DPF. What we found with our LR was that this was caused not by actual clogging of the DPF but rather by blockage of the sensor tubes/circuit by little flakes of sulfurous crust.

The same symptoms in markets with low sulfur fuel typically leads to replacement of the DPF. It‘s not clear to me whether DPFs are simply changed out more than necessary or whether our issue was idiosyncratic to the Disco Sport.

The other issue in high-sulfur regions is that general diesel quality and handling is often also poor. This can lead to particulate or water contamination of the fuel. I understand Grenadiers sold in Australia will ship with a secondary filter against the risk of sketchy outback fuel services.

For operation at high altitude and in cold regions, heated filters may also be desirable as an alternative to fuel additives (these prevent the loss of diesel viscosity at low temps).

Australia is not a high sulphur diesel country at all. Our diesel standards are some of the best in the world. It’s our petrol (gas or whatever you guys up there call it) that is third world.

Our fuel contamination issues come from shonky operations that don’t maintain their tanks. If you just stick with the major suppliers you shouldn’t have an issue. I’ve used Ampol (formerly Caltex) my whole life and have never once had my water sensor pick up anything from them. I doubt this is some unique thing to a particular country, I am willing to bet Europe and North America have their share of shonky operators too

 

[globalgregors]

Yes, correct. That sentence really needed a return when the topic turned from diesel attributes to fuel handling and storage. Thanks for clarifying!

In my experience the issue in Oz is usually with fuel storage on stations, mines or in remote communities, not petrol stations as such - so more a matter for commercial/NGO operators than tourers.

Internationally the areas I’ve seen most issues is in the more cash strapped former Soviet republics and the Middle East/Magreb, where the fuels supply chain has been run down somewhat over the years and petrol stations or lack thereof are/is the problem.

 

[AdiThorny]

You might want to find a BMW diesel forum and ask how the BMW ECU might react to high sulfur fuel or a plugged dpf.

My story... we had excessive regen problems with our 2010 Ford light truck, drove ok but got so bad it was almost always in regen = high fuel consumption, runs hot, dilutes oil, must cool down before shutting off. Thought it might stop running.

Dealer could not clean it enough with manual regen so a new DPF was recommended. The part alone was ~2,300 euro plus a 4 day wait. This was in Canada. Truck had <120,000km. Almost all driving had been highway, mountains, at GVWR, little idling, correct fuel, correct oil etc. In other words the truck worked hard and the DPF "shouldn't" have had such a short service life - but sometimes things just go wrong.

Have you considered the petrol version for your trip ?

I have a petrol on order. All these discussions confirmed that is the right decision for me, for which I am very grateful..

 

[DCPU]

Interesting fact from Oz orders, attributed to Justin Hocevar:

"Around 80 per cent of orders have been for the BMW-supplied 3.0-litre turbo-diesel engine, rather than the inline-six petrol."

Ineos Grenadier wait times detailed for Australia

Anyone who places an order for a new Grenadier now likely won't get their vehicle for 12 months. Demand locally has been strong.

www.carexpert.com.au

 

[DaveB]

Interesting fact from Oz orders, attributed to Justin Hocevar:

"Around 80 per cent of orders have been for the BMW-supplied 3.0-litre turbo-diesel engine, rather than the inline-six petrol."

Ineos Grenadier wait times detailed for Australia

Anyone who places an order for a new Grenadier now likely won't get their vehicle for 12 months. Demand locally has been strong.

www.carexpert.com.au

I would have expected more than that and I think they were too.

 

[Tazzieman]

I would have expected more than that and I think they were too.

City buyers puff the petrol versions up, the long rangers out there are waiting for the diesel dual cab I imagine.
But only time will tell.

 

[DaveB]

City buyers puff the petrol versions up, the long rangers out there are waiting for the diesel dual cab I imagine.
But only time will tell.

I bet the dual cab Diesel cab/chassis version will be a winner in Australia. extra 300mm in the chassis, all in front of the rear axle, will allow heaps of room for an extra tank probably replace the existing one with a new 160-180 litre unit. That will give the Landcruiser 70 series a bit of competition.

 

[amglounge]

That is what the petrol engine sounds like:

Grenadier

Shared with Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

 

[Tazzieman]

Meeting global noise regulations by the sound of it.
What does it sound like at 6000rpm?

 

[Logsplitter]

We’re buying a two seat commercial, petrol Grenadier as an Overlander Having travelled through West Africa in a defender with a euro 5 engine , I can vouch for the fact that very high sulphur diesel will eventually ruin the emissions equipment. We had green sludge dripping out of the exhaust, which meant more dpf regenerations. EGR had been deleted via re-map. I did oil changes every 4000-5000miles and didn’t have any problems. But I think long term if I kept putting in high sulphur diesel there would be problems with the particulate filter and injectors.Re-maps and equipment deletes wouldn’t be an option on a new vehicle. Having spoken to Ineos representatives on various occasions via email, phone and in person at open days,I’ve been convinced by them ,that a petrol Grenadier is the way forward for overlanding travel around the world. According to Ineos broshure the diesel used should be a maximum of 50ppm. You can put a couple of noughts on that in some countries including Mauritania, parts of Senegal and Guinea. Some South American countries have notoriously high sulphur levels in diesel.
There are people out there overlanding in euro 5 spec vehicles , but every mechanic I’ve spoken to says eventually there will be problems with emissions equipment.
just my take on it. Hope that helps.

 

[MRO]

Diesel is more energy efficient, in real world driving the diesel is likely to feel more powerful due to the torque, is more economical and is safer. I can’t see any argument in favour of petrol. I have a (petrol obviously) Audi S8 and performance cars are great with petrol as are small cars where the emissions equipment on petrol is cheaper so they can be more affordable. Everything in between is better diesel (or battery if you like spending as much time planning your trip as driving and enjoy elevated stress and having your car at the wrong temperature when you are driving, and like long stops when you are on a long journey).

 

[cheswick]

We’re buying a two seat commercial, petrol Grenadier as an Overlander Having travelled through West Africa in a defender with a euro 5 engine , I can vouch for the fact that very high sulphur diesel will eventually ruin the emissions equipment. We had green sludge dripping out of the exhaust, which meant more dpf regenerations. EGR had been deleted via re-map. I did oil changes every 4000-5000miles and didn’t have any problems. But I think long term if I kept putting in high sulphur diesel there would be problems with the particulate filter and injectors.Re-maps and equipment deletes wouldn’t be an option on a new vehicle. Having spoken to Ineos representatives on various occasions via email, phone and in person at open days,I’ve been convinced by them ,that a petrol Grenadier is the way forward for overlanding travel around the world. According to Ineos broshure the diesel used should be a maximum of 50ppm. You can put a couple of noughts on that in some countries including Mauritania, parts of Senegal and Guinea. Some South American countries have notoriously high sulphur levels in diesel.
There are people out there overlanding in euro 5 spec vehicles , but every mechanic I’ve spoken to says eventually there will be problems with emissions equipment.
just my take on it. Hope that helps.

We're the polar opposite in Australia - our diesel standards are quite good but our petrol is third world (I think around 80th in the world). Given that and all of the other benefits (fuel efficiency, safety, etc) I'll be sticking with diesel. Not to mention that the diesel model gets a much stronger transmission on the Grenadier.

 

[Red pepper]

The rise (and current fall) of diesel

Unsealed4X4 contributor Paul Todd takes a close look at what made the diesel engine so popular, and why it's going the way of the dodo bird

unsealed4x4.com.au