General Diesel or Petrol

[vazquezigor]

Does anyone know if the B58 engine is the upgraded engine in 2018 to the B58TU?

 

[Ferrugenfish]

[QUOTE username=vazquezigor userid=8989055 postid=1332802800]Does anyone know if the B58 engine is the upgraded engine in 2018 to the B58TU?[/QUOTE]

I forget where, but the engine code I read was not the upgraded "TU" version.... but rather the "MO" version... I think that was the original.  Not helpful for me to say where I read that, but I'm pretty sure I did.  Hopefully it's old news and they've since changed to the TU version... 

 

[Disco Dave]

Differences between B58 and B58TU - from what I can gather.

The B58TU has the exhaust manifold inside the cylinder head. So you can only see 2 exhaust pipes feeding the turbo charger. This is what I have seen on Grenadier prototype videos. Video 06:25

The B58TU has the coolant temp probe in the upper forward crankcase, exhaust side. The B58 has coolant temp probe in the forward facing part of cylinder head. Prototype seems to have a B58 temp probe. Video 06:50

The B58TU has a slightly flattened (narrower sideways, wider vertically) air charge pipe. The B58 charge pipe is round. The prototypes appear to have the B58TU charge pipe.

The 58TU comes with a petrol particulate filter, the B58 does not.

https://youtu.be/zY0ZrSjrgWshttps://youtu.be/zY0ZrSjrgWs

 

[Ferrugenfish]

[QUOTE username=Disco Dave userid=8900239 postid=1332868903]Differences between B58 and B58TU - from what I can gather.

The B58TU has the exhaust manifold inside the cylinder head. So you can only see 2 exhaust pipes feeding the turbo charger. This is what I have seen on Grenadier prototype videos. Video 06:25

The B58TU has the coolant temp probe in the upper forward crankcase, exhaust side. The B58 has coolant temp probe in the forward facing part of cylinder head. Prototype seems to have a B58 temp probe. Video 06:50

The B58TU has a slightly flattened (narrower sideways, wider vertically) air charge pipe. The B58 charge pipe is round. The prototypes appear to have the B58TU charge pipe.

The 58TU comes with a petrol particulate filter, the B58 does not.

[/QUOTE]

Thank you Disco Dave.  I've seen that video, it's very informative.  I really hope you're right - and it sounds like you are - because the TU does seem to have relatively important updates.  It would make sense if it was the TU version since the video says it was, in part, updated to meet newer emissions standards in both the UK and U.S. It has almost identical horsepower and torque as my Nissan van (2013 Nissan NV 2500 HD), but with 0.6 less liters, which speaks to it's efficiency, I guess.  My Nissan gets HORRIBLE gas mileage. 

However my Nissan van also weighs less than the IG, and I certainly wouldn't consider my van to be very strong/responsive... I find it sufficient, but leaves me wanting, particularly if I were to tow more than in-vehicle cargo, let alone elevation and incline.  That said, I only have 5 gears in the van vs. IG's 8.... and my van's transmission kinda sucks if you ask me, so maybe more perceived power can help the IG when it comes to towing it's rated capacity up hill at elevation. There are roads up to 11,000 feet in the U.S. where 7,000 feet is not uncommon where I live.

One more thing that can help the IG is it's engine's known capacity to be tuned to a decent degree without major changes.  This would probably technically void the warrantee, but it's generally good to know it can be done safely, if done moderately, after warrantee is up.  If I'm just driving this for groceries and general duties, there is no need.... could even tune it down to gain fuel efficiency.  But when it comes to the conditions I mentioned above... it does seem to leave me wanting if I compare the weight and power to my current van.  Hopefully we can say "she's heavy but she carries it well!"

 

[Cavaleiro]

[QUOTE username=emax userid=8900646 postid=1332788186]Haven't had a test drive yet.

Diesel vs. petrol: difficult decision. But with Euro 6d, diesel should still be accepted in "green" zones for a while.

[/QUOTE]

That was one of the hardest decisions and I was convinced for a long time that it would be a diesel. As the Grenadier is to replace the Defender in 3-5 years as a motorhome, so long distances across Europe are on the agenda, the diesel would be the better choice. Thanks to our politics, the half-life of a diesel makes me a little worried - in any case, they punish us today already at the gas pump unduly more and will want to force us in the future about money even more to make other purchase decisions.

I remember the test driver in Cologne with whom I think you also drove and he was convinced of the gasoline, especially because of trips to North Africa, where they sometimes sell adulterated diesel, etc..

Range is important to me, therefore the hope of additional tanks in the aftermarket - actually, I should then also take the diesel because of the range to not stand every 600km at the gas pump.

Let's see if my gasoline decision still changes and whether INEOS even leaves the possibilities for such changes.

 

[Christian]

My wife and I are planning a trip around the world (Freiburg in Germany, China, Japan, Australia, USA, South America) with a MOSER Offroad Caravan.

The INEOS Grenadier is intended as the towing vehicle.We are currently dealing with the question of which motor it should be.  Everything speaks in favor of the diesel for towing a trailer on a trip around the world (consumption, range, torque).  However, the sometimes poor diesel quality in Southeast Asia, North America and Africa, planned driving bans and Adblue speak against it.
At the Adventure & Allrad 2022 off-road trade fair, both the test driver and the salespeople at the stand advised me to use a petrol engine based on the points mentioned above.  An Ed6 diesel engine would eventually run into problems with poor diesel quality and lead to major repairs. 

What are your engine experiences/recommendations for trips outside of Europe?

 

[DaveB]

In many outback locations around Australia there is no petrol available, only diesel. All diesel in Australia is good quality for 99% of the time. I think the IG diesel has a water separator already. 
Due to petrol sniffing problems in some indigenous communities years ago all petrol and petrol vehicles were banned.

 

[globalgregors]

[QUOTE username=Chris userid=8955781 postid=1332914432]My wife and I are planning a trip around the world (Freiburg in Germany, China, Japan, Australia, USA, South America) with a MOSER Offroad Caravan.

The INEOS Grenadier is intended as the towing vehicle.We are currently dealing with the question of which motor it should be.  Everything speaks in favor of the diesel for towing a trailer on a trip around the world (consumption, range, torque).  However, the sometimes poor diesel quality in Southeast Asia, North America and Africa, planned driving bans and Adblue speak against it.
At the Adventure & Allrad 2022 off-road trade fair, both the test driver and the salespeople at the stand advised me to use a petrol engine based on the points mentioned above.  An Ed6 diesel engine would eventually run into problems with poor diesel quality and lead to major repairs. 

What are your engine experiences/recommendations for trips outside of Europe?[/QUOTE]

Hi Chris,
Could be I’m your huckleberry having completed a circumnavigation Vladivostok to San Francisco before COVID delayed play.  

‘Poor diesel quality’ refers to five issues: particulate contamination; water contamination; bacterial flora; high sulfur content and variable volatility.

The first three can be found in any area with high min-max temperature ranges - these cause condensation and eventually corrosion in storage tanks. Contaminated diesel can cause fouling of the fuel rail/injectors and is best mitigated with a secondary filter or alternatively ‘manual’ filtration at the point of fueling (eg Mr Funnel) and periodic use of injector cleaner (don’t overdo it though).

The latter couple are associated with less refined or inconsistently sourced diesel, such as one finds across Russia, Central Asia, China and South America. High sulfur fuels cause problems with Diesel Particulate Filters as the sulfur deposits accumulate and obstruct/lead to error codes in the input/output sensors in the DPF. If you take it to garages in markets with eco-diesel predominating they will propose to replace the DPF however this is usually not actually required once one understands the fault. 

The other consideration is the EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirculation) circuit, which can lead to loss of power in turbo-diesels when operating at high altitude. Long story short, EGR amplifies the loss of oxygen density in the input charge and reduces power/torque per rev.

My personal view is that the fuel range, torque, wide availability in remote areas (you can buy it off a passing truck driver), and typically lower engine stress makes diesel the better choice.  It’s also obviously a better choice for towing.

That said, based on the concerns you raised to the Ineos reps, their response is spot on.  If you’re operating on poor fuels, the correct choice is petrol due to how emissions systems are required to work (limp mode when DPF returns an error).  What they were perhaps not prepared to push back on was whether that was the right concern to be indexing on. I think no but will read other views with some interest.

Might be worth noting our Disco Sport is modified for expedition use particularly due to the high altitude issue. I expect this won’t be necessary with the Grenadier due to it’s greater displacement/reduced reliance on forced induction (at altitude, there is no substitute for cubic inches).

 

[emax]

Good points, thank you!

I'd like to add:

• As you will likely drive distances more than 50 Km per leg, the engine will almost always get to their operation temperature. This will make the particle filter and the EGR system work as designed. So the EGR- and the particle filter self-cleaning concept will come into effect and thus be fine for a long time to come.
• Bacterial flora is often a problem of e.g. ships not being operated for months over the winter.  If you don't have a diesel tank "sleeping" for months, such problems are extremely unlikely to arise. And this is usually the case for overlanders. The frequency of refueling is simply to high to let bacteria evolve above any relevant level.

So your Grenadier is (and any Diesel would be) used in the best possible field-conditions I can imagine so that the above mentioned problems won't be a threat for your kind of utilization. Towing is a typical Diesel strength, and the entire characteristics of the Diesel in IMHO unbeatable for your profile.

As for the Adblue question, I remember a statement telling that the Grenadier can be operated without it as well. May be you have to configure or prepare it in some way to do so, but I would in any case open a ticket at Ineos and ask them for a binding answer.

 

[Max]

Not forgetting the feng Shui emax.

 

[globalgregors]

[QUOTE username=emax userid=8900646 postid=1332915759]Good points, thank you!

• Bacterial flora is often a problem of e.g. ships not being operated for months over the winter.  If you don't have a diesel tank "sleeping" for months, such problems are extremely unlikely to arise. And this is usually the case for overlanders. The frequency of refueling is simply to high to let bacteria evolve above any relevant level.

[/QUOTE]

Oh yes that's correct, what I was referring to was diesel coming from bacterially contaminated storage, rather than the problem occurring within the vehicle.  
The variable volatility of compromised diesel will still run the engine, it'll just be rough or down on power.  It's the 2 micron filter on a common rail diesel that's the issue, low pressure fuel systems will run poor fuel with no worries.
Typical practice here (ie outback Oz) is to run a 30 micron in-line pre-filter. Mr Funnel (an adequate substitute) runs about 50 microns, but with the added satisfaction of letting you see all the gunk that you would have otherwise dumped into your tank.
Regardless I think we're both voting diesel on this one!

 

[globalgregors]

[QUOTE username=ECrider userid=8975784 postid=1332558151]I'm 75/25 for diesel over petrol on my build [/QUOTE]

Brought this to mind:



Who in their right mind is not at least 75/25 on "healthy, tasty" German technology?

 

[DaveB]

I think if I was buying a lifestyle vehicle for around the city and short trips away I would go with the petrol. 
There is just too much limitation with it in Australia in rural and remote locations. 
77% of all freight in Australia is delivered by diesel trucks and a large proportion of those use adblue
Even though we have had issue with adblue supply there is still easy availability all around Australia.

I also think the diesel just suits the type of vehicle. A bit of a rattle and shake reminds you that you are not driving a fake SUV

 

[ECrider]

[QUOTE username=Jonathon & Hannah  globalgregors userid=8986856 postid=1332920065]

Brought this to mind:



Who in their right mind is not at least 75/25 on "healthy, tasty" German technology?[/QUOTE]

haha, great spot. Not even a hint of bacterial contamination!!!!

 

[emax]

[QUOTE username=Jonathon & Hannah  globalgregors userid=8986856 postid=1332920053]
Oh yes that's correct, what I was referring to was diesel coming from bacterially contaminated storage
[/QUOTE]
Yes, was not a criticism My comment was by no means addressed towards you, but to Chris. The "Dieselpest" issue is a matter we often discuss in the Diesel-motorbike forum, and I just wanted to make clear that this matter only applies for whatI had described. But you are of course right with bacterial flora coming from stored cans.
[QUOTE username=Jonathon & Hannah globalgregors userid=8986856 postid=1332920053]
Regardless I think we're both voting diesel on this one![/QUOTE]
Agreed. ?

 

[globalgregors]

Ah, just watching the interview with Justin Hocevar.
Dual filters for petrol and diesel vehicles sold in Australia (~9’01”). Nice one!

 

[Christian]

Thank you for your feedback. It's still hard for me to switch from diesel to gasoline (but maybe not)

  
Political dimension:
Due to the diesel scandal, diesel unfortunately has a bad reputation in Europe and diesel driving bans are increasingly being imposed in city centres. However, this may not affect the E6d diesel. However, when I'm out and about in the world, I don't care what happens in Europe anyway. According to @DaveB, it seems to have a bad reputation in Australia, not diesel, but gasoline. For example, there are driving bans in cities for gasoline.Crazy world

Technically, the gasoline engine appears to be more robust against fuel contaminants and errors. That's why I thought about how many kilometers we're likely to drive on our trip around the world (with moderate or poor diesel quality) to assess the risks of engine problems. Perhaps this will put the worries in a better perspective. By poor diesel quality, I mean in particular diesel with a sulfur content >10ppm. Some experts say that by using diesel > 10ppm in an E6d diesel engine, the injectors etc. will probably need to be changed at about 120,000 km.

Here are two interesting German articles (maybe you can use a translator):

https://www.goneforadrive.com/dieselqualitaet-seidenstrasse/
https://matsch-und-piste.de/der-diesel-als-fernreisemotor-probleme-und-losungen/

We are planning a tour similar to this one (with grenadier + caravan):

Stage 1: Freiburg – Tokyo ~18,000km (of which 3,500km Europe with good diesel quality, rest moderate to bad)
Stage 2: Australia ~15,000km (mostly good diesel quality)
Stage 3: Canada – USA – Costa Rica ~15,000km (good to acceptable diesel quality)
Stage 4: South America ~20,000km (moderate diesel quality)
Stage 5 (optional): Cape-Town, Marrakech, Spain, Germany ~15,000km (of which 3,500km Europe with good diesel quality, rest moderate to bad)

Stage 1-5 A total of ~83,000km, of which ~50,000km = ~7,500 liters of poor diesel quality.

  GlobalSulphurStatus_Progress2006-2022.pdf (airqualityandmobility.org)
But if I look at the new map above, I come to the conclusion that with appropriate care (from Bosch) in between and better diesel quality in (maybe 10 years) the 80,000km around the world with the IO E6d diesel engine should be feasible.

That's all for today...

 

[globalgregors]

[QUOTE username=Christian  Chris userid=8955781 postid=1332921858]Wir planen eine Tour ähnlich dieser (mit Grenadier + Wohnwagen)


Etappe 1: Freiburg – Tokio ~18.000km (davon 3.500km Europa mit guter Dieselqualität, Rest mäßig bis schlecht)
Etappe 2: Australien ~15.000km ( meist guter Diesel Qualität)
Etappe 3: Kanada – USA – Costa Rica ~15.000km (gute bis akzeptable Dieselqualität) Etappe 4: Südamerika ~20.000km (moderate Dieselqualität)
) Stufe 5 (optional): Kapstadt, Marrakesch, Spanien, Deutschland ~15.000km (davon 3.500km Europa mit guter Dieselqualität , Rest moderat bis schlecht)


Etappe 1-5 Insgesamt ~83.000km, davon ~50.000km = ~7.500 Liter schlechte Dieselqualität.
[/QUOTE]

Awesome, what fun. I reckon security considerations will be a bigger issue than diesel quality on that itinerary, but that’s a whole other conversation.  Maybe we see you in the Americas… ?

 

[DaveB]

[QUOTE username=Christian  Chris userid=8955781 postid=1332921858]Thank you for your feedback. It's still hard for me to switch from diesel to gasoline (but maybe not)

  
Political dimension:
Due to the diesel scandal, diesel unfortunately has a bad reputation in Europe and diesel driving bans are increasingly being imposed in city centres. However, this may not affect the E6d diesel. However, when I'm out and about in the world, I don't care what happens in Europe anyway. According to @DaveB, it seems to have a bad reputation in Australia, not diesel, but gasoline. For example, there are driving bans in cities for gasoline.Crazy world

Technically, the gasoline engine appears to be more robust against fuel contaminants and errors. That's why I thought about how many kilometers we're likely to drive on our trip around the world (with moderate or poor diesel quality) to assess the risks of engine problems. Perhaps this will put the worries in a better perspective. By poor diesel quality, I mean in particular diesel with a sulfur content >10ppm. Some experts say that by using diesel > 10ppm in an E6d diesel engine, the injectors etc. will probably need to be changed at about 120,000 km.

Here are two interesting German articles (maybe you can use a translator):

https://www.goneforadrive.com/dieselqualitaet-seidenstrasse/
https://matsch-und-piste.de/der-diesel-als-fernreisemotor-probleme-und-losungen/

We are planning a tour similar to this one (with grenadier + caravan):

Stage 1: Freiburg – Tokyo ~18,000km (of which 3,500km Europe with good diesel quality, rest moderate to bad)
Stage 2: Australia ~15,000km (mostly good diesel quality)
Stage 3: Canada – USA – Costa Rica ~15,000km (good to acceptable diesel quality)
Stage 4: South America ~20,000km (moderate diesel quality)
Stage 5 (optional): Cape-Town, Marrakech, Spain, Germany ~15,000km (of which 3,500km Europe with good diesel quality, rest moderate to bad)

Stage 1-5 A total of ~83,000km, of which ~50,000km = ~7,500 liters of poor diesel quality.

  GlobalSulphurStatus_Progress2006-2022.pdf (airqualityandmobility.org)
But if I look at the new map above, I come to the conclusion that with appropriate care (from Bosch) in between and better diesel quality in (maybe 10 years) the 80,000km around the world with the IO E6d diesel engine should be feasible.

That's all for today...

[/QUOTE]
Petrol is banned only in some remote communities due to the problem of young people sniffing it to get high. Now they do Ice instead. 

 

[Christian]

[QUOTE username=DaveB userid=8923052 postid=1332922258]
Petrol is banned only in some remote communities due to the problem of young people sniffing it to get high. Now they do Ice instead.  [/QUOTE]

Ok, I've got it.  Now I know what you mean with "sniffing problem "