Front drive shaft broken

Zimm · Sep 15, 2024

Logsplitter said:
Why do all this whilst it’s under warranty and risk voiding the warranty. For me with world travel as the main reason I purchased the Grenadier, my mantra is keep it simple and as close to stock as possible. Sourcing parts that match aftermarket upgrades when half way around the world would be problematic

The obvious reason, is your being a 1%er when it comes down to it. Notice all the “what tires are those?” And “what wheels are those?” Comments? Here it’s 95% looks, 5% Moab.

Guardian · Sep 15, 2024

Angstorms, thanks for all your help.

angstorms · Sep 15, 2024

Guardian said:
Angstorms, thanks for all your help.

No problem, really want to help out where I can. At least we now know this piece is shared with Jeep community same CV that on JL jeep. Make sense due to Magna involved in both projects, I am assume was primary designer of the CV joint.

Now if you lift your truck Jump over and read the forums for Jeep owner they also run into the same issue of boot wear on this CV. Most people who lift there jeeps end up with double cardan drive shafts, for us how stack stock this is now just another part we need to watch for wear like you do on Jeep and service.

Maybe will we get to point where Tom Woods custom drive shafts or many of the other vendors like Adams and have off the shelf drive line people just order to upgrad their drive shafts if they going to lift the truck.

Here is a quote from Tom's drive shafts page when they see issue on the Jeeps. Tom Woods Address in Ogden, UT

"Jeep JL front drive shaft noise. . . it is a common problem and is inevitable on nearly all lifted Jeep JL Wranglers. It comes down to the design. The stock drive shafts use Rzeppa CV joints that were designed to work in stock Jeeps. Two or three inches of lift is enough to cause these CV joints to fail (watch video below). JL drive shaft rebuild kits just don't cut it. That is why almost all JL drive shaft replacements are upgraded to a double cardan design (a double cardan is also commonly called a cv). This shaft will handle the angles that your stock drive shaft can not. The double cardan drive shaft is a time tested design that has proven itself in thousands of other Jeeps."

Just remember have fun, this is a great truck, it is not road queen it built to get dirty,

Braydo · Sep 16, 2024

angstorms said:
No problem, really want to help out where I can. At least we now know this piece is shared with Jeep community same CV that on JL jeep. Make sense due to Magna involved in both projects, I am assume was primary designer of the CV joint.

Now if you lift your truck Jump over and read the forums for Jeep owner they also run into the same issue of boot wear on this CV. Most people who lift there jeeps end up with double cardan drive shafts, for us how stack stock this is now just another part we need to watch for wear like you do on Jeep and service.

Maybe will we get to point where Tom Woods custom drive shafts or many of the other vendors like Adams and have off the shelf drive line people just order to upgrad their drive shafts if they going to lift the truck.

Here is a quote from Tom's drive shafts page when they see issue on the Jeeps. Tom Woods Address in Ogden, UT

"Jeep JL front drive shaft noise. . . it is a common problem and is inevitable on nearly all lifted Jeep JL Wranglers. It comes down to the design. The stock drive shafts use Rzeppa CV joints that were designed to work in stock Jeeps. Two or three inches of lift is enough to cause these CV joints to fail (watch video below). JL drive shaft rebuild kits just don't cut it. That is why almost all JL drive shaft replacements are upgraded to a double cardan design (a double cardan is also commonly called a cv). This shaft will handle the angles that your stock drive shaft can not. The double cardan drive shaft is a time tested design that has proven itself in thousands of other Jeeps."

Just remember have fun, this is a great truck, it is not road queen it built to get dirty,

The team that did my suspension here in Aus are Jeep specialists, and they said exactly this - the CV appears to be the same as the Jeep's, and the modifications to that joint should also work on the Grenadier. They had only excellent things to say about the Grenadier after doing mine, and indicated they should soon be able to provide options for the driveshaft to support larger lifts based on what they do for the Jeep. At this stage they recommended only the 35mm lift and 34 inch tyres, but it could easily take more once they addressed the driveshaft CV angle. With the 35mm Eibach springs and Fox shocks they gained extra downward travel of 30mm front and 50mm rear (limited by the driveshaft angles - the same setup is capable of more on the front axle once the driveshaft angles are improved).

AFdude412 · Sep 16, 2024

LeeroyJ said:
For those people that have had the drive shaft failure and have a lift, has Ineos denied warranty coverage? If so, was it in the US or some other country?

Mine is being covered by warranty at the dealer in Houston. But they’ve had it 3 weeks now and still waiting on parts.

Clark Kent · Sep 16, 2024

Braydo said:
The team that did my suspension here in Aus are Jeep specialists, and they said exactly this - the CV appears to be the same as the Jeep's, and the modifications to that joint should also work on the Grenadier. They had only excellent things to say about the Grenadier after doing mine, and indicated they should soon be able to provide options for the driveshaft to support larger lifts based on what they do for the Jeep. At this stage they recommended only the 35mm lift and 34 inch tyres, but it could easily take more once they addressed the driveshaft CV angle. With the 35mm Eibach springs and Fox shocks they gained extra downward travel of 30mm front and 50mm rear (limited by the driveshaft angles - the same setup is capable of more on the front axle once the driveshaft angles are improved).

Teraflex say this on their website for their replacement Rzeppa CV PN 1745000 that @angstorms shared earlier. Bold added by me for emphasis:

The TeraFlex JL/JT: Factory Replacement Rzeppa CV Joint Kit replaces a worn or damaged factory Rzeppa CV joint without resorting to an expensive aftermarket U-joint conversion while still allowing angles of up to 15 degrees. The flared CV housing reduces boot failure associated with 3” or more lift.
My standard height Grenadier has a front driveshaft angle of 6 degrees below horizontal. 15 degrees would be a substantial lift.
You guys that want to run spring lifts might need to swap out the rear or both CVs on the front driveshaft as part of the upgrade.

https://teraflex.com/jl-jt-factory-replacement-cv-joint-kit-high-angle-rzeppa.html#

PNW_IG · Sep 17, 2024

I know I will need a long term solution, but here are pictures of my front driveshaft boots after Eibach Pro 2.5 lift and 1000 on road miles. During the lift install, the driveshafts were disconnected on one end and ziptied in place to keep from pinching or over extending the boot.

ORSO · Sep 17, 2024

What is the tightening torque of the T45 flange screws?

Logsplitter · Sep 17, 2024

PNW_IG said:
I know I will need a long term solution, but here are pictures of my front driveshaft boots after Eibach Pro 2.5 lift and 1000 on road miles. During the lift install, the driveshafts were disconnected on one end and ziptied in place to keep from pinching or over extending the boot.

View attachment 7870448
View attachment 7870449

Not much tolerance there. That clip that holds the CV boot on is real close to the flange.

PNW_IG · Sep 17, 2024

Logsplitter said:
Not much tolerance there. That clip that holds the CV boot on is real close to the flange.

Agreed - waiting to hear double double cardan driveshaft updates before I go that route.

PNW_IG · Sep 17, 2024

ORSO said:
What is the tightening torque of the T45 flange screws?

This is from the Teraflex 1745000 (Jeep) install instructions. I do not know if this is correct so use at your own risk.

Jean Mercier · Sep 17, 2024

Logsplitter said:
Why do all this whilst it’s under warranty and risk voiding the warranty. For me with world travel as the main reason I purchased the Grenadier, my mantra is keep it simple and as close to stock as possible. Sourcing parts that match aftermarket upgrades when half way around the world would be problematic

I do agree with @Logsplitter on this.
I think the engineers who designed the car made the "right calculations" and anything like "lifting", "other springs", "other steering dampers", etc. would mean recalculate a lot of other related or affected components with influence on safety or reliability.

Therefore I also stay as close as possible to the mechanical original design.
But I use a lot the electrical extension possibilities, as provided by Ineos (but poorly documented!)

And I don't pretend that the Grenadier is a perfect car, neither that the design engineers didn't make mistakes.

Zimm · Sep 17, 2024

1) If all the calculations worked, they wouldn’t need to do testing 2) when they were calculating, what exactly were they trying to achieve? Their end goal may not be the buyers end goal, but tweeking it may get it close to being so.

That being said, I like to watch others be the first to cross a new bridge.

Zimm · Sep 17, 2024

As to why others change the vehicle and risk warranty denial? That’s a cost benefit analysis. Maybe they look at few thousand for a transfer case as a pittance compared to wasting 90g and 5 years of their life waiting for a warranty to expire, prior to making the truck what they wanted in the first place. Who wants their stone to read “He died not having what he wanted, because he expired before the warranty”

Logsplitter · Sep 17, 2024

Zimm said:
As to why others change the vehicle and risk warranty denial? That’s a cost benefit analysis. Maybe they look at few thousand for a transfer case as a pittance compared to wasting 90g and 5 years of their life waiting for a warranty to expire, prior to making the truck what they wanted in the first place. Who wand their stone to read “He does not having what he wanted, because he expired before the warranty”

That’s fair enough if you’re prepared to take the financial risk. But I just don’t get it myself.

C-Mack · Sep 18, 2024

Jean Mercier said:
I do agree with @Logsplitter on this.
I think the engineers who designed the car made the "right calculations" and anything like "lifting", "other springs", "other steering dampers", etc. would mean recalculate a lot of other related or affected components with influence on safety or reliability.

Therefore I also stay as close as possible to the mechanical original design.
But I use a lot the electrical extension possibilities, as provided by Ineos (but poorly documented!)

And I don't pretend that the Grenadier is a perfect car, neither that the design engineers didn't make mistakes.

There is no free lunch when it comes to engineering and complex mechanical systems. Change one aspect, component or design detail and it impacts the entire system. Install bigger springs, suspension angles change, load parameters and stress points move around the system and some parts see greater or lesser loads depending.

Can it all be managed and balanced? Sure, but there will always be a trade-off or compromise in performance and reliability. The entire design of the vehicle is an engineering compromise from the start based on the choices the engineers made so even in stock form parts are stressed and excessive modifications will quickly reveal the next weakest link in the chain.

The rush to inject the Grenadier with steroid sized modifications such as 35”+ tires and huge lift kits does seem a bit overkill to me but who am I to object or criticize. For perspective though, old series land rovers, defenders, discos, land cruisers and various other brands of vehicles for decades have damn near visited every imaginable place on earth in basic mechanical configurations with slightly knobbier tires and lived to tell the tale. How much of the vehicle steroid modification industry is driven by ego, vanity and money is the bigger question.

CrazyOldMan · Sep 18, 2024

So question - presuming one DOESN’T do any lift, what size tires will fit without rubbing? And have we seen drive shaft failures when ONLY larger diameter tires were fitted, without a lift (other than the couple of stock failures)?

Tazzieman · Sep 18, 2024

C-Mack said:
How much of the vehicle steroid modification industry is driven by ego, vanity and money is the bigger question.

If you lived alone on the typical volcanic/desert island , you probably wouldn't get carried away.
Probably wouldn't even polish it!

parb · Sep 18, 2024

CrazyOldMan said:
So question - presuming one DOESN’T do any lift, what size tires will fit without rubbing? And have we seen drive shaft failures when ONLY larger diameter tires were fitted, without a lift (other than the couple of stock failures)?

i have 33.5" tires on mine. i know several others who have that size tires on (1.5" larger than stock) without a problem, several who are much more hardcore offroader than i am.

GN4HIR · Sep 18, 2024

Tazzieman said:
If you lived alone on the typical volcanic/desert island , you probably wouldn't get carried away.
Probably wouldn't even polish it!

I agree with you Tazzieman and I respect those that take a conservative approach to their IG. Personally, I've enjoyed modifying my IG but I accept the risk without whining. Plus, I live 20 minutes from a dealer and Amazon can deliver a Teraflex CV to me in two days.

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