Front drive shaft broken

[Outlander]

Modifying the vehicle in ways that increase the CV angle—like adding a lift or adjusting the caster angle—significantly raises the risk of damaging the factory front drive shafts' CV joint. At the moment, the only solution is to replace the drive shaft. Fortunately, several companies are working on fixes, and with any luck, 2025 will bring reliable aftermarket options.

Also as an update I've done about 35k on the replacement drive shaft with no problems.

 

[C-Mack]

Ha! I was just about to ask if the "No Lifters" were also the guys telling girls they didn't need implants because they are perfect just as they are...

I have to admit, I'm beginning to wonder if I'm on borrowed time. Which will cost more, labor to go back to stock springs or changing the CV every 6K like its a dirty filter. I already know your answer, what if the CV takes out the T case.

With the money I'm going to have to spend, I could have gotten a deserving "nursing" student / dancer, enlargements in Mexico.. well, at least one, she can get the other for Valentines day.

Before I get a warning, I return you to your family friendly board.

I appreciate the humor I really do!

Messing around with Grenadier’s is sort of like playing with LEGOS. Some folks like to be wild and use all the colors in the box while others want to be very serious and use a just a few colors in an ordered fashion. Both end up with interesting LEGO constructions and neither is better than the other.

The point being, at least we all got to play legos together and have some fun at least until we step on the damn little sharp pieces left behind in the dark.

 

[Bodhi’s Grenadier]

I can't see much resolution to the problem until this "dealer installed" question is answered - at least not for current owners. You wouldn't think 35mm/<1.5" of lift (excluding installation errors like @Tazzieman mentioned) would jeopardize the running gear on a vehicle the size of the Grenadier but it is Ineos' call.

As for future production there will likely be issues addressed like a little more positive caster on the front knuckles/swivels or other steering related changes. Conversely, I doubt there's any room to lift the rear of the transfer case. The engine - with insulation cover installed - is very tight under the hood and Ineos won't delete that because of the heat retention properties it affords.

Even if Carraro allows a little more leeway in pinion angle, most of the problems on lifted vehicles are at the front output of the transfer box. The double cardan front driveshaft solution (@Bodhi’s Grenadier I think) seems workable at low speeds but, man, that's a lot of rotating weight to throw around at highway speeds with a full-time 4WD. Will the t-case output shaft's bearing hold? Will the front pinion bearings hold?

I don’t think it seems that much heavier than the factory shaft, I should’ve weighed it prior to install. However, though it has an additional “joint” to it versus a traditional single double cardan, it’s all perfectly dynamically balanced, so it’s not “throwing” weight around as it’s all in line.

More built in caster would be great as well as a more optimally positioned pinion. But any kind of lift is going to alter things, so proper adjustable links would still be needed. This stuff has been done for decades on wranglers now, not really much different of a problem.

 

[MrMike]

Bad news. The dealer just called and said this issue isn’t covered under warranty because of the aftermarket lift. Even though they installed the lift kit, they claim I didn’t provide a drop kit to lower the driveshaft or axle—though I’m not entirely sure what they mean.
I explained that Eibach doesn’t offer a drop kit and that this issue has happened in other cases, so mine isn’t the first. They said they’ll contact INEOS and get back to me.

View attachment 7881870View attachment 7881871

That is crap!, there is no drop kit available. Not sure what your consumer laws are in CAN but I'd be having a word

 

[MrMike]

I think it's safe to assume that if the car is lifted and the drive shaft breaks that there is little warranty.

We in AU get dealer fitted kits, 40mm so full warranty applies

 

[Walter]

That is crap!, there is no drop kit available. Not sure what your consumer laws are in CAN but I'd be having a word

Exactly... the dealership making excuses isn’t a good sign. I told them to contact INEOS before making a final decision, but I haven’t heard back yet. It’ll probably be after Christmas—or maybe even after New Year.

 

[parb]

I can't speak to the Australian market but in the US I doubt it matters who installs the kit. The US resellers are separate entities from Ineos and can't make contractual modifications on their behalf without approval. Until Ineos corporate says they will extend warranty to modified vehicles as long as the modification is performed by an Ineos reseller then I think it's safest to assume they won't.

Having said that, I think your dealer is on the hook for the repair unless they wrote something into the sales contract stating that that don't provide any warranties beyond the added parts themselves. Its what eibach state with their lift kits.

If Ineos endorses any particular lift kit including their own, which is what it sounds like they are doing in Australia? Then I think it will be hard for them to deny warranty when other kits are installed. But afaik they haven't done that except possibly in Australia.

I get the point that agency theory in common law applies but that is why i would scrutinize the contract to make sure it's not explicitly called out as not applying to this modification.

 

[MrMike]

I can't speak to the Australian market but in the US I doubt it matters who installs the kit. The US resellers are separate entities from Ineos and can't make contractual modifications on their behalf without approval. Until Ineos corporate says they will extend warranty to modified vehicles as long as the modification is performed by an Ineos reseller then I think it's safest to assume they won't.

Having said that, I think your dealer is on the hook for the repair unless they wrote something into the sales contract stating that that don't provide any warranties beyond the added parts themselves. Its what eibach state with their lift kits.

If Ineos endorses any particular lift kit including their own, which is what it sounds like they are doing in Australia? Then I think it will be hard for them to deny warranty when other kits are installed. But afaik they haven't done that except possibly in Australia.

I get the point that agency theory in common law applies but that is why i would scrutinize the contract to make sure it's not explicitly called out as not applying to this modification.

To go ahead and fit the lift without any caveat is wrong, they should know what they are doing and the effect it has on related components.

 

[Walter]

To go ahead and fit the lift without any caveat is wrong, they should know what they are doing and the effect it has on related components.

• There have been driveshaft failures on unlifted Grenadiers with the OEM setup
• Lift kits are sourced from Eibach, the official spring manufacturer.
• INEOS should already be fully aware of this product and the issues that have occurred, yet no caveat or warning has been provided to customers.
• The Grenadier is designed and marketed as a hardcore 4x4, priced as a reliable heavy-duty off-roader. Lifts, upgrades, and modifications are expected in this segment.

While a lift may increase the chances of driveshaft failure, it is not the only or primary cause. INEOS needs to address these concerns comprehensively. Customers are paying for the quality and reliability of the product, not for excuses or disclaimers.

 

[Jiman01]

I thought if a dealer installed an aftermarket part, if a warranty issue arose, you were covered because they installed it?

If there’s no warranty difference between me or some other 3rd party installer modifying the truck vs an INEOS Dealer that would certainly be good information to know.

 

[Walter]

UPDATE: Just heard back from the service manager "I believe I can get this covered under warranty! It's on back order right now with expected delivery sometime in January."
Merry Christmas.

 

[parb]

UPDATE: Just heard back from the service manager "I believe I can get this covered under warranty! It's on back order right now with expected delivery sometime in January."
Merry Christmas.

very nice. It would be pretty good if ineos made a blanket statement about warranty for driveshafts on (mildly) lifted grenadiers.

 

[Walter]

very nice. It would be pretty good if ineos made a blanket statement about warranty for driveshafts on (mildly) lifted grenadiers.

That would be ideal, but it would also mean INEOS admitting that the driveshaft design is a factory defect, which could potentially lead to a recall? At least most, if not all, of the driveshaft failures I’m aware of have been covered under warranty so far.
I’m not sure... I’m starting to think about reverting to the OEM springs now.

 

[Commodore]

That would be ideal, but it would also mean INEOS admitting that the driveshaft design is a factory defect, which could potentially lead to a recall? At least most, if not all, of the driveshaft failures I’m aware of have been covered under warranty so far.
I’m not sure... I’m starting to think about reverting to the OEM springs now.

I would be shocked if Ineos regularly covers driveshaft failures of lifted vehicles. They will say that it is outside of the design parameters. This likely got covered by the dealer because they installed the springs or the dealer isn't telling Ineos that the truck it lifted. I would like to put a leveling spacer on the front springs but no way am I going to risk that until a reliable work around is sorted out.

 

[C-Mack]

The only real fix would be a revised front axle design to lift the pinion and rotate the steering knuckles aft to add more caster at the same time (assuming front axle lubrication is not a limitation). This would have to happen in conjunction with a lowering of the entire engine/transmission/transfer case assembly in the chassis to further decrease angles across the drivetrain. This of course, would present a whole host of packaging, clearance and component changes. Just lowering the tail end of the drivetrain assembly by dropping the transfer case cross member would pivot the drivetrain back which would actually increase the angle at the front transfer case output flange slightly.

These would be wholesale design changes to the vehicles current layout and would only happen if IA encountered a relatively high number of failures (on stock vehicles) or heaven forbid, fatalities or injures, as a result of failures at speed and was forced to issue a recall. The design is what it is for the time being and the aftermarket should be able to produce some solutions which might help but at best they would be classified “Experimental” fixes and would not be covered by IA and could be used as an excuse to avoid repairs.

Sounds like IA is covering a few driveshaft failures for now and one reason could be because warranty claims are not mentioning the vehicles in question have suspension lifts. However, I doubt IA is that naive and may be taking care of customers as they continue to monitor the situation and figure out a path forward. It will be interesting to see if any changes start showing up on newer models. If they do introduce changes that would be admitting they got the design wrong initially but let’s see how it plays out.

 

[MrMike]

The only real fix would be a revised front axle design to lift the pinion and rotate the steering knuckles aft to add more caster at the same time (assuming front axle lubrication is not a limitation). This would have to happen in conjunction with a lowering of the entire engine/transmission/transfer case assembly in the chassis to further decrease angles across the drivetrain. This of course, would present a whole host of packaging, clearance and component changes. Just lowering the tail end of the drivetrain assembly by dropping the transfer case cross member would pivot the drivetrain back which would actually increase the angle at the front transfer case output flange slightly.

These would be wholesale design changes to the vehicles current layout and would only happen if IA encountered a relatively high number of failures (on stock vehicles) or heaven forbid, fatalities or injures, as a result of failures at speed and was forced to issue a recall. The design is what it is for the time being and the aftermarket should be able to produce some solutions which might help but at best they would be classified “Experimental” fixes and would not be covered by IA and could be used as an excuse to avoid repairs.

Sounds like IA is covering a few driveshaft failures for now and one reason could be because warranty claims are not mentioning the vehicles in question have suspension lifts. However, I doubt IA is that naive and may be taking care of customers as they continue to monitor the situation and figure out a path forward. It will be interesting to see if any changes start showing up on newer models. If they do introduce changes that would be admitting they got the design wrong initially but let’s see how it plays out.

IA are really good at warranty i have found, in AU they replaced transfer cases without (in some instances) notifying the owner when their Grenadiers went in for service. Others were emailed and told it was happening. Ford could take a leaf out of their book.
There has to be a reasonable number for it to be a recall, no doubt AI are watching closely.

 

[TCMColorado]

Without going back and reading all 496 posts has anyone kept track of how many reported front drive shaft failures have occurred in unmodified vehicles?

If I understand correctly Outlander and Logsplitter had the front shaft fail because the circlip did not retain the shaft in the Rzeppa joint at the transfer case. Are there others for which the boot failure happened while running the OEM suspension?