Steering and Poor Stability

Zimm · Mar 22, 2024

Javasipper said:
yes, just slightly

Hmmm... did you do this at the same time as adding the dampener? You did not test separately?

edit: disregard, you corrected.

evomind · Mar 22, 2024

dreamalaska said:
I believe your are correct. In a previous post I posted a PDF that explains the process for a manufacturer to minimize the slop in a power steering gearbox. Long story short, it’s an iterative process that’s labor intensive. But that’s not how things are built on an assembly line. All parts are built with an acceptable tolerance within a bell curve. After assembly Quality Control verifies that the minimum tolerances are met. So some gear boxes have more slop than others, but are still within tolerance.

Right.
I believe some are outside that range of tolerances within the bell curve, like the guy a few posts up who knows what he's talking about.
I dont have a lot of confidence that Ineos catches as much as they should in QC at this point.
I think they're getting them out the door and worry about niggles later.

CORE Ineos · Mar 22, 2024

CORE Ineos said:
I hear people saying that this wandering is normal for a solid front axle vehicle.
As an owner of at least 30 solid front axle vehicles, from mostly high end Unimog builds Dodge trucks,Suzuki Samurais, Jeeps new and old, old Land cruisers etc. , the highway wandering of my Grenadier, nicknamed Pong after the video game describing how it wanderes, is the worst if ever experienced!

There has got to be something we can do for this. I'm going to experiment and add a couple more degrees of caster to this by probably taking maybe 15mm out of the upper links . I think this will be a little easier and safer than molesting the lowers .

If it helps, we'll look at making some adjustable lowers in the future and returning the uppers back to stock?

Any other suggestions?

FYI , I own a higher end overland vehicle fab shop and have been messing with link suspensions for over 30 years so please don't scold me too much on how dangerous this is. I'm definitely aware.

Update.
Just measuring the caster as my IG sits empty I'm roughly at 1.5 degrees of caster. Measuring several other solid axle rigs I'm Getting between 5.4 and almost 7 degrees of caster . This is just finding the flatest machined surface perpendicular to the lower king pin so definitely not exact, but looks close.
The IFS rigs with rack and pinions come in around 2.6 degrees.
I think this can work ,but this won't help the pinion cv angle especially when lifted a bit. This can probably be mitigated with a u joint and double cardon cv shaft if necessary.
I do like the factory cv shafts, but I have broken a rear at the necked down portion on a diesel Gladiator before. The u joint units are definitely stronger when done correctly.

Any other ideas

Tom109 · Mar 22, 2024

dreamalaska said:
I believe your are correct. In a previous post I posted a PDF that explains the process for a manufacturer to minimize the slop in a power steering gearbox. Long story short, it’s an iterative process that’s labor intensive. But that’s not how things are built on an assembly line. All parts are built with an acceptable tolerance within a bell curve. After assembly Quality Control verifies that the minimum tolerances are met. So some gear boxes have more slop than others, but are still within tolerance.

If there is any truth to this, I got a tight one!

angstorms · Mar 27, 2024

I saw a Grenadier with a Fox 2.0 Factory Race Series ATS stabilizer - model # FOX983-02-158. which is for RAM 2500/3500 2014+ they also needed tie road bracket Model number FOX803-02-039.

Fox Product info

So with this stablilzer you can dial in the amount of damping. So you could dial in feel for onroad, then before you go offroad dial in that feel as well

What

[ Adam ] · Mar 27, 2024

dreamalaska said:
I believe your are correct. In a previous post I posted a PDF that explains the process for a manufacturer to minimize the slop in a power steering gearbox. Long story short, it’s an iterative process that’s labor intensive. But that’s not how things are built on an assembly line. All parts are built with an acceptable tolerance within a bell curve. After assembly Quality Control verifies that the minimum tolerances are met. So some gear boxes have more slop than others, but are still within tolerance.

I would chance a guess that Ineos is not manufacturing the steering boxes in house and is sourcing them as complete units from a 3rd party supplier.

dreamalaska · Mar 29, 2024

[ Adam ] said:
I would chance a guess that Ineos is not manufacturing the steering boxes in house and is sourcing them as complete units from a 3rd party supplier.

Correct - the Grenadier’s I inspected all had Bosch steering gear boxes in them - ergo my reference that even the venerated Bosch brand isnt perfect.

Tazzieman · Mar 29, 2024

[ Adam ] said:
I would chance a guess that Ineos is not manufacturing the steering boxes in house and is sourcing them as complete units from a 3rd party supplier.

Here is your guide as to who makes what for steering for Ineos

HENGLONG USA
CORPORATION
Steering Pump and Reservoir

THYSSENKRUPP BILSTEIN
Steering Damper

NAMYANG NEXMO
Steering System

SHANGHAI JTR AUTOMOTIVE
ELECTRONICS
Steering Column Module

DenisM · Mar 30, 2024

View: https://youtube.com/watch?v=OiQ7E7a8Gds&si=hjgaSskdMrt-4KLk

Grenadier owner discussing caster adjustment. Most informative.
I'll see if I can obtain the torque setting for the adjustment bolts from the local dealer next week.

NoMoTaco · Mar 30, 2024

DenisM said:
View: https://youtube.com/watch?v=OiQ7E7a8Gds&si=hjgaSskdMrt-4KLk

Grenadier owner discussing caster adjustment. Most informative.
I'll see if I can obtain the torque setting for the adjustment bolts from the local dealer next week.

Should be able to find those specs in these documents

Tom109 · Mar 30, 2024

Next time I go to the dealer I’ll ask if they would be interested to document all the alignment numbers from my Grenadier. I have zero steering or stability issues.

Gren tracks straight
No corrections needed at any speed
Casually drive one handed
Often let the wheel slide through my hand, pulling away from a stop into a left or right turn

I would genuinely like to know if it’s my vehicle, your vehicle, or if it’s me?!

[ Adam ] · Mar 30, 2024

Tom109 said:
Next time I go to the dealer I’ll ask if they would be interested to document all the alignment numbers from my Grenadier. I have zero steering or stability issues.

Gren tracks straight

No corrections needed at any speed

Casually drive one handed

Often let the wheel slide through my hand, pulling away from a stop into a left or right turn

I would genuinely like to know if it’s my vehicle, your vehicle, or if it’s me?!

Whatever it is, I must suffer the same ailment.

anand · Mar 30, 2024

[ Adam ] said:
Whatever it is, I must suffer the same ailment.

I think the vast majority do...

pmatusov · Apr 1, 2024

CORE Ineos said:
Just measuring the caster as my IG sits empty I'm roughly at 1.5 degrees of caster. Measuring several other solid axle rigs I'm Getting between 5.4 and almost 7 degrees of caster .

I don't have a huge sample of caster angles - but full-size Jeeps (62-91 Wagoneer, 74-83 Cherokee, J-trucks) and Range Rover Classics and Discovery 1 had 3 degrees of caster by design.
Large caster angle means bad understeering, and very fast front tire wear.
When I first got my Grenadier, my feeling was that it was worse than a stock straight-axle Land Rover but better than 2.5" lifted one, which put the caster to about 1.5 degrees.
7000 miles later, I don't even feel it.

DenisM · Apr 1, 2024

In post #190 above by @NoMoTaco there is reference in one of the Ineos documents to "rear caster"! which I interpreted as what's called "thrust angle" elsewhere relating to solid rear axles.
@CORE Ineos are you able to measure the rear axle alignment of your Grenadier and determine whether this is significant in terms of the reported "wandering" issues?

pmatusov · Apr 2, 2024

Tom109 said:
Next time I go to the dealer I’ll ask if they would be interested to document all the alignment numbers from my Grenadier. I have zero steering or stability issues.

Gren tracks straight

No corrections needed at any speed

Casually drive one handed

Often let the wheel slide through my hand, pulling away from a stop into a left or right turn

I would genuinely like to know if it’s my vehicle, your vehicle, or if it’s me?!

100% the same with me.

CORE Ineos · Apr 4, 2024

DenisM said:
In post #190 above by @NoMoTaco there is reference in one of the Ineos documents to "rear caster"! which I interpreted as what's called "thrust angle" elsewhere relating to solid rear axles.
@CORE Ineos are you able to measure the rear axle alignment of your Grenadier and determine whether this is significant in terms of the reported "wandering" issues?

The dealer shows pretty much 0 or straight on the rears.

If I can figure out how to get photos up here I'll show you how beefy the FULL FLOATER! Rae axle shafts are!

I just figured it out. Duh...

NQ94 · Apr 4, 2024

CORE Ineos said:
The dealer shows pretty much 0 or straight on the rears.

If I can figure out how to get photos up here I'll show you how beefy the FULL FLOATER! Rae axle shafts are!

I just figured it out. Duh...

Very impressed that it is a full floating axle they use different flange design then we usually see with Dana or Toyota. A couple of questions, are there any photos of the full axle with the drive flanges and hub attachment? Are the wheel bearings sealed and set with a torque like a lot of newer truck & trailer axles?

DenisM · Apr 4, 2024

NQ94 said:
Very impressed that it is a full floating axle they use different flange design then we usually see with Dana or Toyota. A couple of questions, are there any photos of the full axle with the drive flanges and hub attachment? Are the wheel bearings sealed and set with a torque like a lot of newer truck & trailer axles?

Rear bearings are sealed and require a torque of 600Nm according to the engineer at the Tech Talk in Brisbane several weeks ago...

AWo · Apr 4, 2024

CORE Ineos said:
The dealer shows pretty much 0 or straight on the rears.

If I can figure out how to get photos up here I'll show you how beefy the FULL FLOATER! Rae axle shafts are!

I just figured it out. Duh...

Isn't 0 not quite normal at solid rear? Otherwise the drive shafts and the flange will be tilt (correct term? I mean not in line).

AWo

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