Steering and Poor Stability

[RobP]

Has anyone tried Fox Stabilizer, they one for Ineos at Agile Offroad now, https://agileoffroad.com/product/ineos-grenadier-fox-steering-stabilizer-by-agile-offroad/. Looks like it based on this one https://www.ridefox.com/product.php?m=truck&partnumber=985-02-127

I called them yesterday and they said the Fox stabilizer makes the steering a little lighter but still doesn't fully return to center, although more than the the stock damper. I'm now looking for more information about the OME and Roadmaster dampers that are supposed to return to center.

 

[AWo]

The stabilzer returns nothing. It damps vibrations. It is a piston running in oil with more or less resistance. This resistance works against the returning force which only comes from the caster and the toe setting. Less resistance supports the returning but also a reduces the damping of vibrations and unbalances. More resistance better suppresses vibrations und unbalances, but also eats up more of the returning force.

AWo

 

[ZemTyrion]

Hello, I'm new this and I only picked up my Grenadier last week. I'm thinking about getting of it already solely because of steering at high speed. I just came back from visiting the dealer because I assumed it needed an alignment, but they said it's good. They drove it and said it was normal, so I'm already browsing everything from a 4Runner to a Macan. I have owned a significantly lifted 4Runner with larger, wider tires, so that's not it, but I admit I have not driven anything with this steering or a solid front axle. My most recent vehicle was an F150 Tremor, so not exactly a paragon of handling.

In short, if the road is flat and there isn't wind, then it tracks straight. When there are ruts from construction, pot holes, or wind, it is terrifying over 70mph, and that's 80% of Colorado driving. Let's say there's a small rut where they have scraped off old lane markers in a construction zone. If that pulls be to the right, I would steer a little left... and nothing happens. I steer more, and once I'm about to hit a concrete barrier, it jerks me far the other way. Driving around a long curve is just alternating between too much input and not enough. I want a car I can drive across the country to go offroading someplace new, and I felt like the 90 minute drive to the dealership was all I could take. Over 70mph is definitely two-handed driving.

Toe is .02/.03, camber is 0/0, and caster is 2.02/2.01.

So I'm going to check the pressures as suggested by others in here. I would love to hear more about this OME damper since I can't imagine my loss trading in a car after a few weeks, so any reasonable efforts are worth it.

 

[anand]

Hello, I'm new this and I only picked up my Grenadier last week. I'm thinking about getting of it already solely because of steering at high speed. I just came back from visiting the dealer because I assumed it needed an alignment, but they said it's good. They drove it and said it was normal, so I'm already browsing everything from a 4Runner to a Macan. I have owned a significantly lifted 4Runner with larger, wider tires, so that's not it, but I admit I have not driven anything with this steering or a solid front axle. My most recent vehicle was an F150 Tremor, so not exactly a paragon of handling.

In short, if the road is flat and there isn't wind, then it tracks straight. When there are ruts from construction, pot holes, or wind, it is terrifying over 70mph, and that's 80% of Colorado driving. Let's say there's a small rut where they have scraped off old lane markers in a construction zone. If that pulls be to the right, I would steer a little left... and nothing happens. I steer more, and once I'm about to hit a concrete barrier, it jerks me far the other way. Driving around a long curve is just alternating between too much input and not enough. I want a car I can drive across the country to go offroading someplace new, and I felt like the 90 minute drive to the dealership was all I could take. Over 70mph is definitely two-handed driving.

Toe is .02/.03, camber is 0/0, and caster is 2.02/2.01.

So I'm going to check the pressures as suggested by others in here. I would love to hear more about this OME damper since I can't imagine my loss trading in a car after a few weeks, so any reasonable efforts are worth it.

Tire pressures would be the first thing to check, unladen you're probably good around 37F/R

 

[Tom109]

Hello, I'm new this and I only picked up my Grenadier last week. I'm thinking about getting of it already solely because of steering at high speed. I just came back from visiting the dealer because I assumed it needed an alignment, but they said it's good. They drove it and said it was normal, so I'm already browsing everything from a 4Runner to a Macan. I have owned a significantly lifted 4Runner with larger, wider tires, so that's not it, but I admit I have not driven anything with this steering or a solid front axle. My most recent vehicle was an F150 Tremor, so not exactly a paragon of handling.

In short, if the road is flat and there isn't wind, then it tracks straight. When there are ruts from construction, pot holes, or wind, it is terrifying over 70mph, and that's 80% of Colorado driving. Let's say there's a small rut where they have scraped off old lane markers in a construction zone. If that pulls be to the right, I would steer a little left... and nothing happens. I steer more, and once I'm about to hit a concrete barrier, it jerks me far the other way. Driving around a long curve is just alternating between too much input and not enough. I want a car I can drive across the country to go offroading someplace new, and I felt like the 90 minute drive to the dealership was all I could take. Over 70mph is definitely two-handed driving.

Toe is .02/.03, camber is 0/0, and caster is 2.02/2.01.

So I'm going to check the pressures as suggested by others in here. I would love to hear more about this OME damper since I can't imagine my loss trading in a car after a few weeks, so any reasonable efforts are worth it.

This is not my experience at all. I suggest you return to the dealer and reassess. Let them drive your Grenadier while you test drive one or two others.

 

[DaBull]

Hello, I'm new this and I only picked up my Grenadier last week. I'm thinking about getting of it already solely because of steering at high speed. I just came back from visiting the dealer because I assumed it needed an alignment, but they said it's good. They drove it and said it was normal, so I'm already browsing everything from a 4Runner to a Macan. I have owned a significantly lifted 4Runner with larger, wider tires, so that's not it, but I admit I have not driven anything with this steering or a solid front axle. My most recent vehicle was an F150 Tremor, so not exactly a paragon of handling.

In short, if the road is flat and there isn't wind, then it tracks straight. When there are ruts from construction, pot holes, or wind, it is terrifying over 70mph, and that's 80% of Colorado driving. Let's say there's a small rut where they have scraped off old lane markers in a construction zone. If that pulls be to the right, I would steer a little left... and nothing happens. I steer more, and once I'm about to hit a concrete barrier, it jerks me far the other way. Driving around a long curve is just alternating between too much input and not enough. I want a car I can drive across the country to go offroading someplace new, and I felt like the 90 minute drive to the dealership was all I could take. Over 70mph is definitely two-handed driving.

Toe is .02/.03, camber is 0/0, and caster is 2.02/2.01.

So I'm going to check the pressures as suggested by others in here. I would love to hear more about this OME damper since I can't imagine my loss trading in a car after a few weeks, so any reasonable efforts are worth it.

I am running my tires at 37psi front and rear. See if that helps. Keep in mind this is a truck. I own a 2020 New Defender and this vehicle is a night and day difference.
Road Master is going to support the Grenadier and they have a patented return to exact center stabilizer. The first Grenadier owner who takes their vehicle to them to check out will get a free one. They are in Vancouver Washington. DaBull

 

[Krabby]

Hello, I'm new this and I only picked up my Grenadier last week. I'm thinking about getting of it already solely because of steering at high speed. I just came back from visiting the dealer because I assumed it needed an alignment, but they said it's good. They drove it and said it was normal, so I'm already browsing everything from a 4Runner to a Macan. I have owned a significantly lifted 4Runner with larger, wider tires, so that's not it, but I admit I have not driven anything with this steering or a solid front axle. My most recent vehicle was an F150 Tremor, so not exactly a paragon of handling.

In short, if the road is flat and there isn't wind, then it tracks straight. When there are ruts from construction, pot holes, or wind, it is terrifying over 70mph, and that's 80% of Colorado driving. Let's say there's a small rut where they have scraped off old lane markers in a construction zone. If that pulls be to the right, I would steer a little left... and nothing happens. I steer more, and once I'm about to hit a concrete barrier, it jerks me far the other way. Driving around a long curve is just alternating between too much input and not enough. I want a car I can drive across the country to go offroading someplace new, and I felt like the 90 minute drive to the dealership was all I could take. Over 70mph is definitely two-handed driving.

Toe is .02/.03, camber is 0/0, and caster is 2.02/2.01.

So I'm going to check the pressures as suggested by others in here. I would love to hear more about this OME damper since I can't imagine my loss trading in a car after a few weeks, so any reasonable efforts are worth it.

Others have already chimed in but I'll also add that tire pressures seriously matter. I've run 38 since I picked her up and it's great all around - lowering yours will certainly help and it's an easy thing to try first.

 

[[ Adam ]]

Hello, I'm new this and I only picked up my Grenadier last week. I'm thinking about getting of it already solely because of steering at high speed. I just came back from visiting the dealer because I assumed it needed an alignment, but they said it's good. They drove it and said it was normal, so I'm already browsing everything from a 4Runner to a Macan. I have owned a significantly lifted 4Runner with larger, wider tires, so that's not it, but I admit I have not driven anything with this steering or a solid front axle. My most recent vehicle was an F150 Tremor, so not exactly a paragon of handling.

In short, if the road is flat and there isn't wind, then it tracks straight. When there are ruts from construction, pot holes, or wind, it is terrifying over 70mph, and that's 80% of Colorado driving. Let's say there's a small rut where they have scraped off old lane markers in a construction zone. If that pulls be to the right, I would steer a little left... and nothing happens. I steer more, and once I'm about to hit a concrete barrier, it jerks me far the other way. Driving around a long curve is just alternating between too much input and not enough. I want a car I can drive across the country to go offroading someplace new, and I felt like the 90 minute drive to the dealership was all I could take. Over 70mph is definitely two-handed driving.

Toe is .02/.03, camber is 0/0, and caster is 2.02/2.01.

So I'm going to check the pressures as suggested by others in here. I would love to hear more about this OME damper since I can't imagine my loss trading in a car after a few weeks, so any reasonable efforts are worth it.

I drove mine from Moab to Denver in a single day and had no issues. Check your tire pressures.

 

[Korg]

Hello, I'm new this and I only picked up my Grenadier last week. I'm thinking about getting of it already solely because of steering at high speed. I just came back from visiting the dealer because I assumed it needed an alignment, but they said it's good. They drove it and said it was normal, so I'm already browsing everything from a 4Runner to a Macan. I have owned a significantly lifted 4Runner with larger, wider tires, so that's not it, but I admit I have not driven anything with this steering or a solid front axle. My most recent vehicle was an F150 Tremor, so not exactly a paragon of handling.

In short, if the road is flat and there isn't wind, then it tracks straight. When there are ruts from construction, pot holes, or wind, it is terrifying over 70mph, and that's 80% of Colorado driving. Let's say there's a small rut where they have scraped off old lane markers in a construction zone. If that pulls be to the right, I would steer a little left... and nothing happens. I steer more, and once I'm about to hit a concrete barrier, it jerks me far the other way. Driving around a long curve is just alternating between too much input and not enough. I want a car I can drive across the country to go offroading someplace new, and I felt like the 90 minute drive to the dealership was all I could take. Over 70mph is definitely two-handed driving.

Toe is .02/.03, camber is 0/0, and caster is 2.02/2.01.

So I'm going to check the pressures as suggested by others in here. I would love to hear more about this OME damper since I can't imagine my loss trading in a car after a few weeks, so any reasonable efforts are worth it.

I experienced as you did what seemed to be poor steering and could not stand it while driving home from the dealer. After a wheel alignment and reducing tyre pressure to 36 PSI and 1,200km later the steering is improving.

 

[Tomdoc]

Hello, I'm new this and I only picked up my Grenadier last week. I'm thinking about getting of it already solely because of steering at high speed. I just came back from visiting the dealer because I assumed it needed an alignment, but they said it's good. They drove it and said it was normal, so I'm already browsing everything from a 4Runner to a Macan. I have owned a significantly lifted 4Runner with larger, wider tires, so that's not it, but I admit I have not driven anything with this steering or a solid front axle. My most recent vehicle was an F150 Tremor, so not exactly a paragon of handling.

In short, if the road is flat and there isn't wind, then it tracks straight. When there are ruts from construction, pot holes, or wind, it is terrifying over 70mph, and that's 80% of Colorado driving. Let's say there's a small rut where they have scraped off old lane markers in a construction zone. If that pulls be to the right, I would steer a little left... and nothing happens. I steer more, and once I'm about to hit a concrete barrier, it jerks me far the other way. Driving around a long curve is just alternating between too much input and not enough. I want a car I can drive across the country to go offroading someplace new, and I felt like the 90 minute drive to the dealership was all I could take. Over 70mph is definitely two-handed driving.

Toe is .02/.03, camber is 0/0, and caster is 2.02/2.01.

So I'm going to check the pressures as suggested by others in here. I would love to hear more about this OME damper since I can't imagine my loss trading in a car after a few weeks, so any reasonable efforts are worth it.

This is really rather strange to hear about. Genuinely my IG is the most planted, solid and stable car of its weight I have ever driven - including at speeds of up to 80mph on motorways. Something has to be drastically wrong if this is not your experience - unstable is just not how I would describe mine at any speed.

 

[Tom109]

This is really rather strange to hear about. Genuinely my IG is the most planted, solid and stable car of its weight I have ever driven - including at speeds of up to 80mph on motorways. Something has to drastically wrong if this is not your experience - unstable is just not how I would describe mine at any speed.

Same for me. My Gren was delivered 41psi/front and 46psi/rear. It handled great, even on crowned country roads with broken/dirt shoulders and uneven surface, fast or slow. I have since lowered it to 36psi/front and 40psi/rear. The ride is softer but no handling change.

 

[ZemTyrion]

My pressures from the dealer were 45 front and 49 rear. Last night I lowered them to 38/40. I might go lower, but I haven't had a chance to test it. It's been snowing since last night, and we're expecting a foot today so I don't think I'll be going much over 60mph on the roads right now.

Hopefully that will do it, but I also ordered the Fox steering damper. It looks like we can't get OME in the US (not that I found anyway). I am optimistic that at least one of those will do something. Thanks!

 

[CountyV8]

I have had a Trialmaster since last April I run 40 front and rear with no load and it performs solidly feels planted at any speed . I have also driven at least 5 other Grenadiers of various types (diesel and petrol for more than a week ) and found then to be the same holds Ines curves etc. So go and drive ethers at your dealers.

 

[RobP]

Hopefully that will do it, but I also ordered the Fox steering damper. It looks like we can't get OME in the US (not that I found anyway). I am optimistic that at least one of those will do something. Thanks!

Please post feedback when it's installed!

 

[dreamalaska]

One thing to note is that a recirculating ball bearing steering gear box has several items that introduce “slop” in steering accuracy. These can be mitigated but not entirely eliminated. Full size USA Truck owners are well aware of these issues. A great write-up explaining these issues and fixes can be found in the following PDF: https://dalesauto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Red-Head.pdf

In short, ball screw slop and gear lash are not well controlled in high volume manufacturing processes, even gear boxes made by the venerable Bosch corporation.

 

[Catpaw4x4]

Hello, I'm new this and I only picked up my Grenadier last week. I'm thinking about getting of it already solely because of steering at high speed. I just came back from visiting the dealer because I assumed it needed an alignment, but they said it's good. They drove it and said it was normal, so I'm already browsing everything from a 4Runner to a Macan. I have owned a significantly lifted 4Runner with larger, wider tires, so that's not it, but I admit I have not driven anything with this steering or a solid front axle. My most recent vehicle was an F150 Tremor, so not exactly a paragon of handling.

In short, if the road is flat and there isn't wind, then it tracks straight. When there are ruts from construction, pot holes, or wind, it is terrifying over 70mph, and that's 80% of Colorado driving. Let's say there's a small rut where they have scraped off old lane markers in a construction zone. If that pulls be to the right, I would steer a little left... and nothing happens. I steer more, and once I'm about to hit a concrete barrier, it jerks me far the other way. Driving around a long curve is just alternating between too much input and not enough. I want a car I can drive across the country to go offroading someplace new, and I felt like the 90 minute drive to the dealership was all I could take. Over 70mph is definitely two-handed driving.

Toe is .02/.03, camber is 0/0, and caster is 2.02/2.01.

So I'm going to check the pressures as suggested by others in here. I would love to hear more about this OME damper since I can't imagine my loss trading in a car after a few weeks, so any reasonable efforts are worth it.

Decreasing 2psi made an incredible difference from feeling unsteady to this is so much better. But the steering will never be like a BMW X series. It will be more like a Series 2 Discovery 5 speed manual for which I have driven 278k over the past 28 yrs. It will take some time for your brain to readjust along with getting rid of all the unavoidable mental bias created by reading all the different experiences on this Forum. Last year for a brief second (maybe more like a micro second) after waiting from when I placed my reservation on 13 Oct 2021 I thought about backing out. After all, lots of $$ for an unproven vehicle built by an unproven / brand new auto company who would be so foolish to to purchase a vehicle with this background and all the negative stuff on this Forum?? I and many others who have from the first mile enjoyed their drive. Its not perfect and if you want to wait 10 yrs for updated models you may get there. If you want BMW X series/ Discovery interior and driving, then don't buy a Grenadier as it will not meet your expectations. If you want a solid 4x4 built for that "Purpose" that is way more comfortable on the road than one would think, go for it!!!
Cheers and All the Best!

 

[angstorms]

You know I just flew back to Austin and had to get into my X5 40i x-drive and drive it home after 350+ miles in the Grenader. You have to put the X5 into Sports Mode to have stiffness of the steering of the Grenadier, I was adaptive mode when I get in, steering felt soft in comparison.

But I agree if you looking for some more like cockpit of X5 I look at the Lexus GX550 and full electronics, but if you want rugged truck that give you confidence in tougher driving situation the Grenadier is the right vehicle.

I put 45,000 mile on my X5 mostly driving from Austin to Durango and Back since Dec 2019 in all four season. it about 980 mile each direction which I do in 1 day shots. I know that SUV well now, in sports mode steering stiffen up, bolster tighten up, and suspension tighten up keep the vehicle flat in twisty turns of hill country of Texas. One I do love about thet car is I can get 26 MPG on long road trips running very good clip. This make it a fantastic touring vehicle. But even X5 you have to correction when your on the roads I drive from Austin to Durango.

One thing on the Grenadier, double check you caster + alignment as well do now over inflate you KO2, I could drive it will minimal intervention 1 handed, even did couple hand off the wheel to do some tracking check aka see if wanders . I found you need to more careful so your not trying over muscle the stearing , be more subtle in correction, so you do not have to do return correction for the other direction on the road and it reward you.

The two cars for two different purpose in my mind, I really like them both. But it was the X5 that has me lot more comfortable with B58 and ZF transmission, they are really good motors for type place I drive.

 

[ZemTyrion]

I lowered tire pressures, and it was definitely better. I'd like to turn off the warning. I don't know if there is a way to reset what the expected pressures are, or maybe I just need to add a little air back.

I installed the Fox steering damper last night. Installation was trivial except for the line "It may be necessary to slightly pry open the oem mount to fit the new stabilizer." That's when I moved from the floor to the lift.

My test drive was only about 5 minutes at 85mph. I think this is a pretty big step in making it easier to drive, but I wouldn't say it suddenly has precision handling. It's definitely a much bigger improvement than lowering tire pressures. My goal is to get to where I can steer with just my left arm on the window for long stretches of straight highway because that's how I could do long distances. But as dumb as this sounds, I'm a bagpiper, and this weekend was St Patrick's Day. If you live outside the US, you might realize that the Great Highland Bagpipes are Scottish, not Irish, but that is a nuance lost on the vast majority of my fellow Americans. My point is I played 8 shows this weekend, and my left arm is absolutely dead. I am optimistic that once I'm recovered I will find this to be a great solution.

I admit my other car is a 911, but I've generally kept one small car and one big car. Most recently the big one was an F150, so I'm not comparing to the an X5 or anything like that. The way this guy described steering is pretty consistent with what I saw, but the dealer says I already have my 2 degrees of caster, which has been my concern.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiQ7E7a8Gds

 

[[ Adam ]]

My goal is to get to where I can steer with just my left arm on the window for long stretches of straight highway because that's how I could do long distances.

I'm left handed, drove across the country with my left elbow on the door/arm rest for up to 14 hours at a time. My tires were between 45 & 50 psi. I never felt unsafe, but have since lowered to 37psi, with slightly better handling and much improved comfort. I've also moved to a 255/80/17 tire. This was for the increased sidewall, not because of any perceived handling issue.

The only issue I had was some carpal tunnel type aches in my left wrist from the way my hand and wrist sat in alignment to the spoke on the left hand side of the wheel at 9 o'clock - i was putting a finger above and my thumb below the spoke. I have to intentionally grab the wheel at around 10 o'clock to avoid this and not stretch my hand across the spoke.

 

[Zimm]

My tires were between 45 & 50 psi. I never felt unsafe, but have since lowered to 37psi, with slightly better handling and much improved comfort.

Yea, all other factors being equal, this is all one should normally feel with small tire pressure changes. With a load range E tire, I wouldn't think you'd even feel any pulling until one tire got down into the 20's. As noted, this is a live axle ball steering truck. 5 psi does not cause "I'm gonna sell it" to become "this is normal". The aluminum rims on my f350 dually are so porous, I never have 6 tires within 10psi of one another, and the only way to tell is check em once a week.

I have an f150 also and its night and day pleasant compared to the f350. This rig here handles much more like my lifted fj60, so I wouldn't be surprised if much of this experience is merely due to the shock of how exceptionally "unmodern" the steering actually is. Sir Jimmy must have emphasized he wanted something that handles like a 1960's truck, and the designers didn't screw around.