Front diff failure

[parb]

US maintenance schedule replace at 12k miles or 12 months per the owner manual if I am reading it correctly.

yeah that makes sense. I'm planning to do an early fluid change at around 5 or 6k miles.

 

[DenisM]

I am understanding you right that there is a diff oil change recommended after 1,000km?

There was no requirement for a 1000 km service that I was aware of. I recently got the 15000 km /12m service done and the diff oils were replaced as per the service requirement. The next replacement is around 90 thousand km....

 

[Eric]

It is crucial for the very first service after only 1,000 kms - both differentials are drained and replaced with an entirely different oil. The Grenadier service guys are all trained in this.

UK manual (and dealer) state 1st service 12k miles or 12months.

 

[Andrew Kilby]

I assume, you were important as many people watched your journey and IA itself used it for promotion.

Bying stock spare parts costs money and I assume that is very tight at the moment. All incomes are needed to keep the thing running, to get new sales and to write new invoices.

Don't forget, sales numbers have decreased early in 2023 and still decrease, yet, while IA intended to double the number of build cars in 2024 compared to 2023. That would mean about 60,000 units where in 2023 the intended numbers were missed clearly. Is 60,000 units a realistic number? Ask yourself. How should that work? And how do suppliers react, which also can see the numbers and now the market and which may need to pre-finance if they are asked for parts for 60,000 units? In a niche market where Mercedes made a party when they sold 25,000 units of the G Wagon globally in one year (2016) for the first time. And the current model claimed up to 40,000+. Where should all the buyers come from for Ineos? Independent of if it is a good car or not They're not the only ones which offer and sell cars of that kind but they can't sell an alternative, yet. Every potential customer who doesn't want a 4x4 of that kind or price is a lost customer for IA. In addition a new car is developed at IA which eats up a lot of Euros.

I.m.h.o. opening new markets like South America is a must and a flee forward for IA.

AWo

I can't comment on the rest of the world but here in Australia there is a significant problem with a lack of sales and service agents. There is no Ineos presence outside the major population centres and they are few and far between. Mining companies, farmers, tourist operators will not purchase and have to drive long distances, often over 1500 to get to the nearest service. They will never break into the market unless something changes.

 

[NQ94]

I can't comment on the rest of the world but here in Australia there is a significant problem with a lack of sales and service agents. There is no Ineos presence outside the major population centres and they are few and far between. Mining companies, farmers, tourist operators will not purchase and have to drive long distances, often over 1500 to get to the nearest service. They will never break into the market unless something changes.

The miners, farmers and tourist operators like to stay with the familiar, easiest and most cost effective to service options and are very cautious with fleet choices. Most of the remote operators do their own fleet service and repairs, so as long as there is the efficient availability of parts, literature and diagnostic tooling the distance to the closest dealer becomes less of an issue in Australia.

 

[Andrew Kilby]

The miners, farmers and tourist operators like to stay with the familiar, easiest and most cost effective to service options and are very cautious with fleet choices. Most of the remote operators do their own fleet service and repairs, so as long as there is the efficient availability of parts, literature and diagnostic tooling the distance to the closest dealer becomes less of an issue in Australia.

I agree with you mostly, but there are lots of small operators who don't. Parts, literature and diagnostic tooling are not available to me. Can you get them?

 

[INEOSTED]

yeah that makes sense. I'm planning to do an early fluid change at around 5 or 6k miles.

I brought my Trialmaster in at 9000 to Mossey San Diego. I live far away. Told them to look over everything. Towed a trailer at 17000. WELL UNDER specs.... 5500#. The rear differential was leaking I noticed after a 750 mile drive. THE BOLTS WERE LOOSE! I tightened them and added a quart of spec gear oil. When bringing it to the dealer because of this and the new humming sound on acceleration, they deemed the differential was bad and now have to replace the entire rear axle. THEY ARE TELLING ME NOT UNDER WARRANTY??!! Because I didn't show up at 12K miles. THEY SHOULDN'T sell these "indestructible" trucks to people that live far from large city dealerships then!! They are actually telling me it is because the lack of exactly 12000 mile service on the diff.... NOT because of the leaking and loose bolts?! I have lost all respect for this company.... The dealership AND customer service from England both say "sorry". This is more than an irritating failure, it is a FAILURE TO TAKE CARE OF THEIR PROBLEM! They also tell me they have never heard of this problem... yet here is a forum loaded with leaky issues and loose bolts! Back to LAND ROVER for me....

 

[anand]

I brought my Trialmaster in at 9000 to Mossey San Diego. I live far away. Told them to look over everything. Towed a trailer at 17000. WELL UNDER specs.... 5500#. The rear differential was leaking I noticed after a 750 mile drive. THE BOLTS WERE LOOSE! I tightened them and added a quart of spec gear oil. When bringing it to the dealer because of this and the new humming sound on acceleration, they deemed the differential was bad and now have to replace the entire rear axle. THEY ARE TELLING ME NOT UNDER WARRANTY??!! Because I didn't show up at 12K miles. THEY SHOULDN'T sell these "indestructible" trucks to people that live far from large city dealerships then!! They are actually telling me it is because the lack of exactly 12000 mile service on the diff.... NOT because of the leaking and loose bolts?! I have lost all respect for this company.... The dealership AND customer service from England both say "sorry". This is more than an irritating failure, it is a FAILURE TO TAKE CARE OF THEIR PROBLEM! They also tell me they have never heard of this problem... yet here is a forum loaded with leaky issues and loose bolts! Back to LAND ROVER for me....

Just to make sure I'm understanding you correctly..

You had an oil change service at 9,000 miles, but did not have the gear oil changed; then at 17,000miles you have a bad rear diff after a leak that is not being covered because you did not do the 12,000mi service on the diffs?

 

[Logsplitter]

I brought my Trialmaster in at 9000 to Mossey San Diego. I live far away. Told them to look over everything. Towed a trailer at 17000. WELL UNDER specs.... 5500#. The rear differential was leaking I noticed after a 750 mile drive. THE BOLTS WERE LOOSE! I tightened them and added a quart of spec gear oil. When bringing it to the dealer because of this and the new humming sound on acceleration, they deemed the differential was bad and now have to replace the entire rear axle. THEY ARE TELLING ME NOT UNDER WARRANTY??!! Because I didn't show up at 12K miles. THEY SHOULDN'T sell these "indestructible" trucks to people that live far from large city dealerships then!! They are actually telling me it is because the lack of exactly 12000 mile service on the diff.... NOT because of the leaking and loose bolts?! I have lost all respect for this company.... The dealership AND customer service from England both say "sorry". This is more than an irritating failure, it is a FAILURE TO TAKE CARE OF THEIR PROBLEM! They also tell me they have never heard of this problem... yet here is a forum loaded with leaky issues and loose bolts! Back to LAND ROVER for me....

So did they do a full first service at 9000 miles ?
I had a rear diff leak but that was because I knocked the rear diff cover on very bad rocky road. It was only a slow drip so was rectified shortly afterwards by shifting the cover then tightening up, draining and changing the oil.

 

[INEOSTED]

Just to make sure I'm understanding you correctly..

You had an oil change service at 9,000 miles, but did not have the gear oil changed; then at 17,000miles you have a bad rear diff after a leak that is not being covered because you did not do the 12,000mi service on the diffs?

Yes... I told them to do at minimum an engine oil change at 9k but to do anything else they deemed necessary and to look over things fully... Their reply was all good and they just changed the engine oil. They KNEW I wouldn't be back for another 5-10K. I even called to get advise on towing a few months later because one travel trailer I was looking at was 6500#. His answer was, these things are almost indestructible... get the one you like most. I went with the 5500# just by gut feeling. NEVER did they mention for me to bring it in for that ABSOLUTE NECESSARY 12k diff check. Also, when I called about the humming noise.... no advise to stop driving. Just bring it down as soon as you can... which I did, but I live 500 miles away. Overall to me just very poor customer service and my trust in the truck has gone from "indestructible" to "fragile"

 

[INEOSTED]

So did they do a full first service at 9000 miles ?
I had a rear diff leak but that was because I knocked the rear diff cover on very bad rocky road. It was only a slow drip so was rectified shortly afterwards by shifting the cover then tightening up, draining and changing the oil.

OUCH! That must have been a hard hit! I've done a bit of off road... That is why we all probably loved these things... But, I've kept the bottom off the ground so far. So my loose bolts are ???

 

[Logsplitter]

OUCH! That must have been a hard hit! I've done a bit of off road... That is why we all probably loved these things... But, I've kept the bottom off the ground so far. So my loose bolts are ???

I took a lot of hits

 

[anand]

Yes... I told them to do at minimum an engine oil change at 9k but to do anything else they deemed necessary and to look over things fully... Their reply was all good and they just changed the engine oil. They KNEW I wouldn't be back for another 5-10K. I even called to get advise on towing a few months later because one travel trailer I was looking at was 6500#. His answer was, these things are almost indestructible... get the one you like most. I went with the 5500# just by gut feeling. NEVER did they mention for me to bring it in for that ABSOLUTE NECESSARY 12k diff check. Also, when I called about the humming noise.... no advise to stop driving. Just bring it down as soon as you can... which I did, but I live 500 miles away. Overall to me just very poor customer service and my trust in the truck has gone from "indestructible" to "fragile"

But the owners manual tells you in plain English that a diff service is mandatory at 12k... It boils down to not doing the required maintenance when it is due, and then a failure occurring after that. Even with the assumption that it was a faulty part installed in your vehicle from the start, Ineos has a strong case given that the required service was not performed, and thus could have attributed to the failure

The dealer wasn't wrong to tell you that at 9k nothing else is due (nothing is due at 9k technically).

 

[Logsplitter]

I had a full first service at 14000km about 8750 miles inc diff oils changed because I asked for that as the vehicle had been working hard off road and carrying load. This service was done at Ineos Kavango in Botswana. As @anand says the first service is due at 12000miles or one year whichever is sooner unless you specifically request an earlier service for whatever reason. In my case as stated I got serviced early at 7months old and 14000km because of hard use.
Some markets may have different service intervals I understand depending on local conditions

 

[[ Adam ]]

But the owners manual tells you in plain English that a diff service is mandatory at 12k... It boils down to not doing the required maintenance when it is due, and then a failure occurring after that. Even with the assumption that it was a faulty part installed in your vehicle from the start, Ineos has a strong case given that the required service was not performed, and thus could have attributed to the failure

The dealer wasn't wrong to tell you that at 9k nothing else is due (nothing is due at 9k technically).

I would argue that the 12k service may be the single most important service of the vehicle.

I understand OP's frustration, and perhaps he felt he should have got a "Hey, by the way we'll see you in 3k miles for that MAJOR SERVICE", but its on the owner to understand their service intervals. The manual is very clear. That's car ownership 101.

I got my first oil change at 650 miles, and every 6000 after that - including my 12k service a bit early and a fresh oil change at 17k miles. I'm probably a little over the top on maintenance, but its cheap insurance and I'm always 100% sure to have it documented by getting the work done at a local shop I know and trust, or at an Ineos shop. Specifically to avoid issues like above.

I have no confirmation, but I speculate that the gear oil from the factory is a break in oil, designed to come out after 12k miles. I'm curious when it will make sense to change it again as the table maxes out at 84k miles, and we know no fluid is good forever.

 

[Tinerfeño]

I believe this is normal practice in any car maker's warranty policy.

I remember a Freelander 2 which had a cam belt failure at 218' km. Replacement interval was 240' km. When I informed local Land Rover dealer about this first question was: "Have the all services been done according to schedule?" Engine oil or pollen filter changes can't help timing belt but luckily all the services had been done, first by the dealer and later by us. Engine was repaired with a new cylinder head within warranty.

But at the same time manufacturers, including Ineos, could be somewhat reasonable in cases like this.

 

[[ Adam ]]

But at the same time manufacturers, including Ineos, could be somewhat reasonable in cases like this.

This is a good point HOWEVER if the expected life of the oil in the diff is 12k, then where do you draw the line? 10%, 20%? 2000 miles I could see, but exceeding the maintenance interval by nearly 50%...

What's reasonable?

 

[Tazzieman]

I would think that if towing/ hard use you would go for an earlier fluid change as opposed to a mall crawl schedule.
I mean, it makes sense.

 

[Tazzieman]

Ineos: "The maintenance schedule is based on normal vehicle usage. Depending on weather and atmospheric conditions, varying road surfaces, individual driving habits and vehicle usage, additional or more frequent maintenance will be required. Severe driving conditions include:

A - Driving under dusty conditions

B - Driving repeatedly short distances

C - Towing a trailer

D - Extensive Idling

E - Driving in unusually extreme adverse weather conditions or in areas where ambient temperatures are either extremely low or extremely high

F - Driving in high humidity areas or in mountainous areas

G - Driving in areas using salt or other corrosive materials

H - Driving on rough and/or muddy roads or in the desert

I - Driving with frequent use of braking or in mountainous areas

J - Regular driving at or near maximum operational speed for the vehicle
Therefore, if you drive under severe conditions, please refer to the plan shown when you scan the QR Code."