Steering and Poor Stability

[Clark Kent]

Maybe, but the factory steering damper on the Grenadier is not neutral. It seems to be pressurised so it always wants to extend to its full length when removed, unlike other dampers which stay at the length you compress or extend them to. While this force is relatively low compared to other forces in the steering mechanism it may be contributing to the wandering?

Well that's interesting, and unusual. Without correction that would give a minor right steering bias I think? The camber spec is the same on the left and right side of the axle so some bias might help minimally to counter road camber (crown) on RHD vehicles wanting to run to the left and low side of the road. NA and presumably EU vehicles have the dampener flipped but I haven't seen the mounting to know if a dampener bias might be in play here. Presumably the NA/EU vehicles are tracking straight?

I recall when military mogs first came into service in Australia they had terrible lane position holding and wanted to run off the left side of the road due to a fixed camber angle built into the axle for LHD/Euro markets, i.e. opposite road camber/crown to RHD/Australia where we often have apexed roads. A modification kit was fitted to correct the camber so mogs would track straight.

 

[Shopkeep]

Well that's interesting, and unusual. Without correction that would give a minor right steering bias I think? The camber spec is the same on the left and right side of the axle so some bias might help minimally to counter road camber (crown) on RHD vehicles wanting to run to the left and low side of the road. NA and presumably EU vehicles have the dampener flipped but I haven't seen the mounting to know if a dampener bias might be in play here. Presumably the NA/EU vehicles are tracking straight?

I recall when military mogs first came into service in Australia they had terrible lane position holding and wanted to run off the left side of the road due to a fixed camber angle built into the axle for LHD/Euro markets, i.e. opposite road camber/crown to RHD/Australia where we often have apexed roads. A modification kit was fitted to correct the camber so mogs would track straight.

I did some highly technical damper tests in my laboratory/lounge room using finely calibrated equipment (thirty year old mechanical luggage scales) and found the following:
-when compressed it takes approx 7.5kg/16lbs of force to stop it expanding (at its mid point)
-it takes approx 100 seconds for the damper to self extend the 181mm range from fully compressed to fully extended
-the expansion speed slows markedly as it approaches full extension
-this damper was approx 6 months / 8000kms old when removed

 

[Snipewench]

I am in love with my Gren, which gets stronger every time I take it for a drive, discovering new capabilities, and expanding my own driving skills and offroad knowledge. I did _not_ get this with my previous vehicle. I never really considered doing much in the way of options with that vehicle - my Gren on the other hand has lit a fire under my butt, to kit it out and get out there onto tracks I'd not considered before now.

I noticed about a month ago that the steering seems more solid in my Gren than it did in my previous vehicle (an Amarok), which is a funny statement given the criticism around steering of the Grens. What I noticed was I didn't have to move the steering wheel as much in my Gren as I had to in the 'Rok in a corner - I could set a steer angle, and keep it there, and the Gren would track around a corner (given a constant radius curve corner that is...).

I would consider myself used to the steering, and lack of re-centering, and I'm returning to centre pretty much without conscious effort now.

I initially had serious thoughts about swapping the steering damper to an aftermarket one, but now I've been driving this Gren, I don't think I will. As @Clark Kent said above - a lot of the steering nuances probably sits with the driver, not the vehicle - and I agree with that.

... but I think it would be an interesting exercise for me to get my alignment checked, just to see how much better the centering and track could be.

 

[pmatusov]

Last week, I found myself rotating between four very different vehicles, steering-wise:
RR Classic - heavy steering wheel, no play, considerable understeer, perfect track.
LR4 - light and quick steering, with zero damping (rack and pinion), some oversteer in the corners.
D5 - light and quick steering with zero feedback (by far the least favorite)
Grenadier - right between an LR4 and RR Classic.
Absolutely zero need to adjust "muscle memory" or anything.

 

[RMAGNI]

I bought a brand new grenadier a few days ago and immediately had the Fox stabilizer installed at the same time. But steering was horrific when i picked it up. steering wheel was off center and car felt very unstable at highway speed. lots of wandering. Brought it back to the dealer and they found the steering angle sensor needed to be centered and that toe was way off. Toe is supposed to be between 0 and .25 degrees. the left was .67 degrees and the right was -.27 degrees (NEGATIVE toe). I'm picking the car up tonight. hopefully will be much more stable.

 

[Jeremy996]

I bought a brand new grenadier a few days ago and immediately had the Fox stabilizer installed at the same time. But steering was horrific when i picked it up. steering wheel was off center and car felt very unstable at highway speed. lots of wandering. Brought it back to the dealer and they found the steering angle sensor needed to be centered and that toe was way off. Toe is supposed to be between 0 and .25 degrees. the left was .67 degrees and the right was -.27 degrees (NEGATIVE toe). I'm picking the car up tonight. hopefully will be much more stable.

They are supposed to check them as part of the PDI.

 

[Skydance]

They are supposed to check them as part of the PDI.

Makes me wonder why they can’t align them properly at the factory in the first place

 

[Dokatd]

They are supposed to check them as part of the PDI.

Hah, good luck with that. Mine needed alignment up front as well. Not to mention all the jam nuts on the steering were loose when I drove away day one. Also had a brake line dragging on a front tire that destroyed one tire and the brake line itself.

Hopefully they are getting better at PDI, but I think the port guys are supposed to be getting them ready and severely dropping the ball. Who knows though.

 

[Skydance]

Hah, good luck with that. Mine needed alignment up front as well. Not to mention all the jam nuts on the steering were loose when I drove away day one. Also had a brake line dragging on a front tire that destroyed one tire and the brake line itself.

Hopefully they are getting better at PDI, but I think the port guys are supposed to be getting them ready and severely dropping the ball. Who knows though.

My dealer tells me they are learning case by case. They don’t get enough training from Ineos, the manual they’ve got is pretty naff. That’s why there are many irregularities from each PDI and from different dealers. They won’t fix other things spotted unless it’s authorised otherwise they don’t get paid. The factory should quality control and test each car before it leaves the assembly line.

 

[Jackattack13]

My steering wheel was pretty far off center when I picked it up. Dealer fixed the alignment and steering during warranty visit.

 

[SkiBum1]

The steering is fine. You get use to it and there are zero worries. Like driving a classic car, which no one has complained about for decades. We are all spoiled with new technology and when something cool comes along without that new tech, we think something is wrong. Hey, it isn’t going to break on you, so get use to it. No worries at all for me!

 

[Cheshire cat]

I would guess there must be some serious anomalies going around on the steering front. Most of us have subtle differences that we can live with, and even enjoy, but it seems some customers are receiving totally unacceptable faults on theirs.
Coming from an old Defender I see absolutely nothing wrong with it, even though I often drive modern cars. My daughter however, comments on the Grenadier steering feeling ’wooley’, compared to her Golf. It doesn’t put her off the Grenadier. The DPF burn does that!! Talk about embarrassing.

 

[LWA55DAL]

I bought a brand new grenadier a few days ago and immediately had the Fox stabilizer installed at the same time. But steering was horrific when i picked it up. steering wheel was off center and car felt very unstable at highway speed. lots of wandering. Brought it back to the dealer and they found the steering angle sensor needed to be centered and that toe was way off. Toe is supposed to be between 0 and .25 degrees. the left was .67 degrees and the right was -.27 degrees (NEGATIVE toe). I'm picking the car up tonight. hopefully will be much more stable.

I am pretty sure this is more of a shipping issue than a factory issue. Remember - these are strapped to a semi and shipped across the country before getting to a dealer. Strapping them down too much or a huge bump while in transit can pull the alignment a little. Mine was off at delivery and had to get it fixed at a local alignment shop vs the dealer. Lots of hand holding in the shop to get them to center the steering wheel.

 

[Cheshire cat]

I am pretty sure this is more of a shipping issue than a factory issue. Remember - these are strapped to a semi and shipped across the country before getting to a dealer. Strapping them down too much or a huge bump while in transit can pull the alignment a little. Mine was off at delivery and had to get it fixed at a local alignment shop vs the dealer. Lots of hand holding in the shop to get them to center the steering wheel.

I own the BMW R18 motorcycle.
Early reports from journalists, etc couldn’t get over the terrible rear suspension and said it was woeful. Turns out, many dealers didn’t know about its ‘Transport’ setting and hadn’t adjusted it accordingly.
Still not the best, but no complaints here.

 

[Dokatd]

I am pretty sure this is more of a shipping issue than a factory issue. Remember - these are strapped to a semi and shipped across the country before getting to a dealer. Strapping them down too much or a huge bump while in transit can pull the alignment a little. Mine was off at delivery and had to get it fixed at a local alignment shop vs the dealer. Lots of hand holding in the shop to get them to center the steering wheel.

If strapping down your Grenadier to a truck for transport is messing with alignment then something is horribly wrong.

As well, keep in mind there are only two adjustments for alignment on a Grenadier. Neither "require" an alignment rack. And neither should change over time unless you have hit something hard enough to bend Metal.

 

[RMAGNI]

I bought a brand new grenadier a few days ago and immediately had the Fox stabilizer installed at the same time. But steering was horrific when i picked it up. steering wheel was off center and car felt very unstable at highway speed. lots of wandering. Brought it back to the dealer and they found the steering angle sensor needed to be centered and that toe was way off. Toe is supposed to be between 0 and .25 degrees. the left was .67 degrees and the right was -.27 degrees (NEGATIVE toe). I'm picking the car up tonight. hopefully will be much more stable.

Picked up the car. It's better but still not totally straight. the steering wheel was originally very off center to the left. Now it is slightly off center to the right (a lot less off center than it was originally), though not much. The car still feels like it wanders a lot and requires lots of corrections.

I have the Fox non-adjustable stabilizer. It helps with returning to center, but doesn't feel like it addresses the vagueness/wandering feeling. If I bought the adjustable version, would the higher settings yield better results than the regular non-adjustable version?

 

[MTNDOG]

Picked up the car. It's better but still not totally straight. the steering wheel was originally very off center to the left. Now it is slightly off center to the right (a lot less off center than it was originally), though not much. The car still feels like it wanders a lot and requires lots of corrections.

I have the Fox non-adjustable stabilizer. It helps with returning to center, but doesn't feel like it addresses the vagueness/wandering feeling. If I bought the adjustable version, would the higher settings yield better results than the regular non-adjustable version?

Give it some miles, after 2k miles, I would say mine has improved significantly even with the stock steering stabilizer. I still want to get the alignment checked, but last I asked the alignment place I contacted didn't have Ineos in the system and wouldn't even put it on the rack to check baseline numbers.

 

[RMAGNI]

Give it some miles, after 2k miles, I would say mine has improved significantly even with the stock steering stabilizer. I still want to get the alignment checked, but last I asked the alignment place I contacted didn't have Ineos in the system and wouldn't even put it on the rack to check baseline numbers.

ha fair point. My car has 75 miles...

 

[MTNDOG]

ha fair point. My car has 75 miles...

Check your tire pressure as well, I think most of us have had the pressure set by the dealer to the pressure for max cargo capacity versus 1 or 2 occupants. My steering is almost 100% return to center now with no modifications and tire pressure set to around 36lbs on all 4 corners. The manual will give the correct pressure so don't quote my number.

 

[RMAGNI]

Check your tire pressure as well, I think most of us have had the pressure set by the dealer to the pressure for max cargo capacity versus 1 or 2 occupants. My steering is almost 100% return to center now with no modifications and tire pressure set to around 36lbs on all 4 corners. The manual will give the correct pressure so don't quote my number.

I'm at 34 psi all around. the wheel returns to center fine. it just doesnt really stay straight on the highway. Requires a lot of micro adjustments and feels like a lot of slop/play at the center. this is also my first reciprocating ball steering, so i may just need to get used it. But i was under the impression the fox stabilizer would reduce the wandering. the wandering is about the same as what I felt in the non-fox loaner vehicle I used (though return to center is much better than the loaner).