Steering improvement with more positive caster?

[DaBull]

I have a theory that its not the car that has broken in .... It's you.
I own a couple of forestry tractors, they have cranes mounted over the cabs. this makes them very top heavy and coupled with large flotation tyres they really rock and roll. When people drive them for the first time they find them pretty terrifying. The issue is that the whole machine rocks and rolls just with undulations in the road surface, cornering makes this worse. The instinctive reaction of the new driver is to correct the roll with the steering, this makes things worse. Over time you learn to literally roll with it and leave the steering alone and then it seems fine.
I suspect the grenadier is similar, it doesn't roll anywhere near as much as the tractors do but the principle is the same, I think if you're used to driving rack and pinion cars will little body roll you will make instinctive corrections to the steering which will make the roll feel worse. You'll end up weaving down the road and it won't feel good. Now that you have been in the car for a while you have developed the muscle memory and it all seems fine...
Just a theory, not having a go at your driving, its a completely normal reaction to a different style of vehicle.
This is backed up by the fact that most of the users on here who have said that the steering feels fine have a background of big old fashioned vehicles: old defenders, lifted wranglers, 70 series land cruisers or tractors. Those who have said that it feels scary are coming from more modern vehicles..

Hi Tom D, I like your theory. It means I am getting better everyday, even as I am get older. Perhaps we have found the fountain of youth. DaBull

 

[Max]

Mine doesn’t wander at all, tracks straight and true at 70mph no problem. Bumpy roads yes it maybe follows camber a little but it doesn’t take any thinking about at all.

Can you please tell me what tyres and pressure you are using?

 

[LWA55DAL]

I have a theory that its not the car that has broken in .... It's you.
I own a couple of forestry tractors, they have cranes mounted over the cabs. this makes them very top heavy and coupled with large flotation tyres they really rock and roll. When people drive them for the first time they find them pretty terrifying. The issue is that the whole machine rocks and rolls just with undulations in the road surface, cornering makes this worse. The instinctive reaction of the new driver is to correct the roll with the steering, this makes things worse. Over time you learn to literally roll with it and leave the steering alone and then it seems fine.
I suspect the grenadier is similar, it doesn't roll anywhere near as much as the tractors do but the principle is the same, I think if you're used to driving rack and pinion cars will little body roll you will make instinctive corrections to the steering which will make the roll feel worse. You'll end up weaving down the road and it won't feel good. Now that you have been in the car for a while you have developed the muscle memory and it all seems fine...
Just a theory, not having a go at your driving, its a completely normal reaction to a different style of vehicle.
This is backed up by the fact that most of the users on here who have said that the steering feels fine have a background of big old fashioned vehicles: old defenders, lifted wranglers, 70 series land cruisers or tractors. Those who have said that it feels scary are coming from more modern vehicles..

Fair comment - if I didn’t alternate between at least 4-5 different vehicles a week, and including tractors - 7-8. As I said in my post - I can’t really explain why, now, but it drives completely differently and for everyone to decide the steering stabilizer replacement on a vehicle with 200 miles fixes the IG steering - doesn’t understand the concept. Steering stabilizers are shocks. Until properly broken-in - they stick - seals, etc. try compressing a new shock - it will bounce. Try compressing a used shock - it moves freely. Point is - people think the steering has an issue, but IMO - it needs to be broken in and the shipping will likely cause an alignment issue.

I just replaced the steering rack, tie rods, control arms, lower ball joints and wheel bearings on my ‘99 LC 100 series and IMO - the before and after on that is the same as the IG from delivery to today.

FWIW - in the inventory I go from rack and pinion to recirculating ball a couple times a week and alternate daily between the IG and a 2500 Ram ‘22. The IG after 4k has better steering and feel now than the Ram and ALL of my vehicles, except the tractors, are wearing BFG KO2’s “E” rated. For the absence of doubt - I don’t own a single car and all of the referenced vehicles are 4WD - including the tractors.

 

[LWA55DAL]

Can you please tell me what tyres and pressure you are using?

Factory BFG’s

38PSI Front and 42 PSI Rear. This seems to be the sweet spot on tire temps, no load, in S Texas. Pressure generally moves up about 4PSI when they get warm in 90deg temps.

 

[LWA55DAL]

I agree with Tom and no disrespect to you LWA55DAL. I came out of a Tiguan (drove for 2 yrs) into the "G". She came with overinflated tyres and I drove her home 3.5 hrs on the coldest day in Jan at night on a twisty / curvy 2 lane highway thru Virginia. I spent the next 5 months driving just the "G" then into a rental car (whoa tight steering!!! slightest correction and I was potentially over the line!) to go pick up my 96 manual Discovery (my other car of 28 yrs) from the mechanic 3.5 hrs away. Transfer into her not having driven in 7 months - you think the "G" has "loose" steering ). I'm back in the "G", steering is not the rental car but not the Discovery either. "Muscle" memory ... its what you get use to. The Brain is absolutely incredible!!
Cheers!

I understand the “muscle memory” comment and agree, except I typically get in 2-4 different vehicles a day so I think I have a good basis for my comments. On Sunday I drove the IG, the ‘20 LC, the ‘22 Ram and the ‘99 LC. My wife hated the IG, due to the steering and “wandering” on the road when I picked it up 3 months ago. She drove it 2-3 times and hasn’t touched it in over a month. She originally said she hated the steering and would not give up a 200 Series LC. She drove it this weekend and asked me “what I did to it” as it drove much better.

IMO - the answer is simple - INEOS/MAGNA over engineered a vehicle that unlike most conventional consumer vehicles today, needs a break-in in the steering components.

 

[Tom D]

I understand the “muscle memory” comment and agree, except I typically get in 2-4 different vehicles a day so I think I have a good basis for my comments. On Sunday I drove the IG, the ‘20 LC, the ‘22 Ram and the ‘99 LC. My wife hated the IG, due to the steering and “wandering” on the road when I picked it up 3 months ago. She drove it 2-3 times and hasn’t touched it in over a month. She originally said she hated the steering and would not give up a 200 Series LC. She drove it this weekend and asked me “what I did to it” as it drove much better.

IMO - the answer is simple - INEOS/MAGNA over engineered a vehicle that unlike most conventional consumer vehicles today, needs a break-in in the steering components.

That’s interesting. The example of your wife suggests you are right. Mine just seemed fine right out of the box. I can’t remember how many miles it had on it when I collected it. It wasn’t many. Maybe it has loosened up.?

 

[Baron von Teuchter]

Can you please tell me what tyres and pressure you are using?

It’s the KO2’s, 38psi

 

[bigleonski]

I didn't think that much was possible.

I only have about 350 miles on mine. it moves a little and it can use some caster, but, it wasn't tracking too too bad on grooved surfaces, and the way it went over crowns in the road for a lane change, was bit more reminiscent of bump steer from lifted short radius arms to me. Like when one tire drops, it turns the whole axle slightly to that side yanking the vehicle a tad, requiring a little counter input which turns into a slight over correction when it relevels. It's all exaggerated with a top heavy rig. The solution is to just ride it out, which is why we just get used to it.

I missed this news. So did you take your order, or another one at a dealership?

 

[Tazzieman]

IMO - the answer is simple - INEOS/MAGNA over engineered a vehicle that unlike most conventional consumer vehicles today, needs a break-in in the steering components.

So quite a few people have blown a few hundred bucks on something they didn't need.
Clever marketing wins again!

 

[Catpaw4x4]

I understand the “muscle memory” comment and agree, except I typically get in 2-4 different vehicles a day so I think I have a good basis for my comments. On Sunday I drove the IG, the ‘20 LC, the ‘22 Ram and the ‘99 LC. My wife hated the IG, due to the steering and “wandering” on the road when I picked it up 3 months ago. She drove it 2-3 times and hasn’t touched it in over a month. She originally said she hated the steering and would not give up a 200 Series LC. She drove it this weekend and asked me “what I did to it” as it drove much better.

IMO - the answer is simple - INEOS/MAGNA over engineered a vehicle that unlike most conventional consumer vehicles today, needs a break-in in the steering components.

With the full context of your situation disclosed, I do not disagree with you.
Cheers!

 

[Zimm]

I missed this news. So did you take your order, or another one at a dealership?

Yea. I took a landcruiser first edition for a ride, and frankly it is a better truck. It's a more mature completely baked car, better materials and more ergonomic, etc, but, I'm a whore that likes cool shit and this is still way cooler, even with the exact same paint job. I mean, I struck up a conversation with a recent African immigrant on the way home.

plus 2.9 % was free money with inflation at 3% and I saved a couple hundred a month compared to it's march arrival. It's a 7th car I wont drive every day, so look at is as Inoes volunteered to buy my fuel. ... it pays to be patient and watch the market, even on emotional purchases.

I just cant see traffic lights and my right knee hits a center console instead of a shifter. Just like my 110nas a couple decades ago. at least there's no internal roll cage displacing my left shoulder forcing me to cruise detroit style. It's deja'vu all over again

 

[landmannnn]

I understand the “muscle memory” comment and agree, except I typically get in 2-4 different vehicles a day so I think I have a good basis for my comments. On Sunday I drove the IG, the ‘20 LC, the ‘22 Ram and the ‘99 LC. My wife hated the IG, due to the steering and “wandering” on the road when I picked it up 3 months ago. She drove it 2-3 times and hasn’t touched it in over a month. She originally said she hated the steering and would not give up a 200 Series LC. She drove it this weekend and asked me “what I did to it” as it drove much better.

IMO - the answer is simple - INEOS/MAGNA over engineered a vehicle that unlike most conventional consumer vehicles today, needs a break-in in the steering components.

Agreed, with about 4,000 miles covered, the vagueness at straight ahead has gone. The wheel self centres above about 10mph, below that (exiting tight junctions) it still needs a quarter turn to straighten up.

 

[Zimm]

Anecdotal information to judge yourself is useless. You'll see what you want to see. That's not an insult, its how the human mind works. We are not the rational blank slates in control of our thoughts that we like to pretend we are. If we were, we wouldn't have personalities, we'd all be the same.

This is why we do double blind studies.

 

[landmannnn]

Anecdotal information to judge yourself is useless.

This is why we do double blind studies.

Anecdotal evidence is what fora are about.

Let us know the results of your double blind testing.

 

[Zimm]

The first time jumping into one of these in 4 months with only a previous short test drive, it was a bit shocking. Instead of rolling with the steering oddities, I tried to correct them. With the heavy dampener and too small steering wheel (which will greatly increase steering effort btw, so it isn't ALL the damper) it was getting tiring and I wondered if I just wasted 90thou. Every 50 miles was a noticeable difference, and 300 miles in, I'm fine with it. Did it "break in"? f**k no. It's me. 90% of the learning curve is in the first .5% of miles. My reflexes were adapting. I was learning a new thing. Just as I can play basketball AND golf, I can have more than one set of muscle memory for different cars.

 

[Zimm]

Anecdotal evidence is what fora are about.

Let us know the results of your double blind testing.

Anecdotal only means that person perceives a change, it doesn't mean there is one nor does it confirm a sourse if there is.

Like, my personal experience is, people that act like tough guys on the internet are typically complete pussies face to face... But, is it true here? I guess I'll never really know, so, I'll just run with perception is reality.

 

[DenisM]

Anecdotal information to judge yourself is useless. You'll see what you want to see. That's not an insult, its how the human mind works. We are not the rational blank slates in control of our thoughts that we like to pretend we are. If we were, we wouldn't have personalities, we'd all be the same.

This is why we do double blind studies.

Mischievous thought re double blind studies and even randomised double blind studies: In this instance shutting both eyes and trying to steer doesn't end well - even for 'randoms'...

 

[landmannnn]

Like, my personal experience is, people that act like tough guys on the internet are typically complete pussies face to face... But, is it true here? I guess I'll never really know, so, I'll just run with perception is reality.

End of discussion.

 

[LWA55DAL]

The first time jumping into one of these in 4 months with only a previous short test drive, it was a bit shocking. Instead of rolling with the steering oddities, I tried to correct them. With the heavy dampener and too small steering wheel (which will greatly increase steering effort btw, so it isn't ALL the damper) it was getting tiring and I wondered if I just wasted 90thou. Every 50 miles was a noticeable difference, and 300 miles in, I'm fine with it. Did it "break in"? f**k no. It's me. 90% of the learning curve is in the first .5% of miles. My reflexes were adapting. I was learning a new thing. Just as I can play basketball AND golf, I can have more than one set of muscle memory for different cars.

Not worth responding to the prior posts, but I also think the Forum needs to be “on task”. We all have opinions and generally speaking, I think we are all very passionate about the vehicle. We also likely all come from completely different vehicle experiences and levels of expertiece.

That said - you are welcome to “learn to hit the curve”, but some of us will deal and work in reality. That reality is that we are dealing with machines that are made by humans, manufactured by humans and driven by humans. Not one of them will be made the exact same, as humans are flawed, but we need to praise them for the efforts and praise them for the engineering and effort they have placed. We will also always differ on what we like and don’t like.

Setting aside sports cars and SUV’s, no car manufacturer has actually tried to build what INOES has built and we should all be VERY happy they did.

No blind taste test on this one - you are hereby invited to come to San Antonio and test the difference on all of the vehicles I have referenced, but PLEASE don’t continue to be a “clown” and insult people on a Forum. If you really want an old school “bar fight” - happy to come to Philly as well. It’s a long drive, but it may be be worth it to break-in the steering a little more. Nashville is about 1/2 way so maybe we could alternate drivers and maybe pickup someone on the Forum along the way to complete the Pepsi challenge. Just an idea.

 

[LWA55DAL]

Yea. I took a landcruiser first edition for a ride, and frankly it is a better truck. It's a more mature completely baked car, better materials and more ergonomic, etc, but, I'm a whore that likes cool shit and this is still way cooler, even with the exact same paint job. I mean, I struck up a conversation with a recent African immigrant on the way home.

plus 2.9 % was free money with inflation at 3% and I saved a couple hundred a month compared to it's march arrival. It's a 7th car I wont drive every day, so look at is as Inoes volunteered to buy my fuel. ... it pays to be patient and watch the market, even on emotional purchases.

I just cant see traffic lights and my right knee hits a center console instead of a shifter. Just like my 110nas a couple decades ago. at least there's no internal roll cage displacing my left shoulder forcing me to cruise detroit style. It's deja'vu all over again

Not sure I followed much more than the 1st sentence, but going to give you my 2 cents. The IG is NOT a 300 series and it is not a 200 series. Candidly - the IG is not comparable to any of the current LC’s unless we are talking about the 70 series and you can’t get them in the states. So assuming we are in the “continental 48” - yes - they are both marketed as an “off road” vehicles but they are VERY different. I am a huge Toyota and LC fan and I have put over 1 Million miles on LC’s over the years. The new LC is great, but it is not an IG and the IG is not a LC.

The new LC is also NOT an HD LC, it’s a Prado and if you want the 300 series LC then you have to get the LX600.

Maybe we can discuss the difference between the LC Prado and LC on our drive to Philly?