Steering and Poor Stability

[Tazzieman]

600Nm/442ft-lbs is a lot of force to be mustering on the trail somewhere.

Weld a 2m piece of thick steel pipe to the end of the shovel
Makes for harder shovelling (but better muscles) , and you don't need a huge torque wrench!

 

[NQ94]

It would be interesting if someone asks their Service Center what the official Ineos estimate of labor and parts to replace the pressed bearings would be as calculated in their service computer. 200000km (125000mi) isn’t a super long run.

Still a bit off topic but based these times on averages from other similar vehicles. Could be like a 70series and the service interval is 20k km wheel bearing repack which is needed in extreme service and loaded increased gvm applications but can comfortably go to 80k to 100 k km for normal service. 200 to 250km is about the average for Hilux etc that do mixed heavy work, regular off road and daily driver. Some do 400k km+ doing normal daily work no heavy towing or full gvm off road work.

 

[pmatusov]

I drive a Grenadier Station wagon, plus a BMW X6. I now prefer highway driving in the Ineos. It’s a pleasant experience at the destination getting out feeling refreshed and relaxed. Can’t say I have any issues getting used to driving one of the other. Have had my grenadier for just under a year now and love it.

Likewise.
I definitely prefer Grenadier to an LR4 - and now even to my LWB Classic - on pavement.

 

[255/85]

View attachment 7852148View attachment 7852151
1. Carraro HS6.07 Axle front wheel bearing assembly. Vari Brake upgrade. 2. Ineos Grenadier Carraro front axle

View attachment 7852123View attachment 7852147
4. Rear FF hub Carraro Iveco 4x4. Photos from 4x4 Iveco Daily FB pages.

I refer back to SCAM built 4x4 Iveco Daily as the closest axle comparison, it has the larger model Carraro front and rear full floating axles then the Grenadier but essentially share the identical design (12 bolt cover not 9 bolt using Chevy terms). Both front and rear wheel bearings need a puller to remove the wheel hubs and a special factory tool or a custom made fixture to remove and replace the front wheel bearing with out damaging the housing. Some mechanics have reported using between 10 to 20t and some more to remove the front wheel bearing from the knuckle with their custom made jigs used in a workshop press. From what I have been told by a few who have done the job and some research the wheel bearing is pressed in from the back of the steering knuckle on to a shoulder while hub presses in from the front and is held into the bearing with the drive axle. I expect the same for the Grenadier.
When the Daily 4x4 has experienced major wheel bearing failure most have been towed to a workshop for repair while others have been successful in replacing wheel bearings as preventative maintenance with a well equipped home workshop. This has been documented in various peoples travel pages and vlogs. The rear full floating hub will require to be assembled with the bearing if it is to be carried as a spare. As a field repair with limited tooling, the wheel bearings on Grenadier and Quartermaster are going to be a job where out of the box MacGyver type thinking will be required and will be a relatively difficult task for the inexperienced DIYer to complete.

This is a strange system to my eye. The claim is greater durability but the suboptimal offset of the bearing in relation to the wheel mounting surface (WMS) is no better than modern unit bearings I am more familiar with. Worse to my uneducated brain than old fashioned spindle/hub arrangements that had the WMS roughly centered between the inner and outer bearings. I watched several videos on bearing replacement (none were specifically Grenadier related) and all I came away thinking was "That's a lot of work to not throw out a hub when a wheel bearing goes bad and there are still no guarantees you won't have to if the hub is out of spec". Component 18 in the diagram - if similar to the Grenadier axle - is especially odd but possibly reassuring. It appears to provide a secondary sealed space (along with component 10) for the bearing (12) that will be pressed into the knuckle (not shown) but I can't be sure.

I'm wondering just how big of a bottle jack you can fit into the Grenadier's jack space? Could you pull off a bearing replacement with a Hi-Lift if truly desperate?

nope. Ain't gonna happen. The whole field repair thing went out the window long ago.
I suggest anyone still entertaining that notion to seek profesional help.
The entire vehicle is a modern, tied to a captive dealer repair network, heavy duty suv.

Such a killjoy.

 

[AWo]

This is a strange system to my eye. The claim is greater durability but the suboptimal offset of the bearing in relation to the wheel mounting surface (WMS) is no better than modern unit bearings I am more familiar with. Worse to my uneducated brain than old fashioned spindle/hub arrangements that had the WMS roughly centered between the inner and outer bearings. I watched several videos on bearing replacement (none were specifically Grenadier related) and all I came away thinking was "That's a lot of work to not throw out a hub when a wheel bearing goes bad and there are still no guarantees you won't have to if the hub is out of spec". Component 18 in the diagram - if similar to the Grenadier axle - is especially odd but possibly reassuring. It appears to provide a secondary sealed space (along with component 10) for the bearing (12) that will be pressed into the knuckle (not shown) but I can't e sure.

I'm wondering just how big of a bottle jack you can fit into the Grenadier's jack space? Could you pull off a bearing replacement with a Hi-Lift if truly desperate?



Such a killjoy.

Do I see one wide bearing and it is not centered?

AWo

 

[NQ94]

This is a strange system to my eye. The claim is greater durability but the suboptimal offset of the bearing in relation to the wheel mounting surface (WMS) is no better than modern unit bearings I am more familiar with. Worse to my uneducated brain than old fashioned spindle/hub arrangements that had the WMS roughly centered between the inner and outer bearings. I watched several videos on bearing replacement (none were specifically Grenadier related) and all I came away thinking was "That's a lot of work to not throw out a hub when a wheel bearing goes bad and there are still no guarantees you won't have to if the hub is out of spec". Component 18 in the diagram - if similar to the Grenadier axle - is especially odd but possibly reassuring. It appears to provide a secondary sealed space (along with component 10) for the bearing (12) that will be pressed into the knuckle (not shown) but I can't e sure.

I'm wondering just how big of a bottle jack you can fit into the Grenadier's jack space? Could you pull off a bearing replacement with a Hi-Lift if truly desperate?



Such a killjoy.

Still off track from original post. Remember this is the larger Carraro axle as a reference just to show some of the repair differences that will be encountered on the Grenadier compared to the common similar repairs on the 4x4s we are used to. On the Grenadier the brake disc is mounted on the outside of the hub flange not the inside like the Iveco so brake jobs will be cheaper with no hub and wheel bearing disassembly.

 

[Lord Ripon USA]

This is a strange system to my eye. The claim is greater durability but the suboptimal offset of the bearing in relation to the wheel mounting surface (WMS) is no better than modern unit bearings I am more familiar with. Worse to my uneducated brain than old fashioned spindle/hub arrangements that had the WMS roughly centered between the inner and outer bearings. I watched several videos on bearing replacement (none were specifically Grenadier related) and all I came away thinking was "That's a lot of work to not throw out a hub when a wheel bearing goes bad and there are still no guarantees you won't have to if the hub is out of spec". Component 18 in the diagram - if similar to the Grenadier axle - is especially odd but possibly reassuring. It appears to provide a secondary sealed space (along with component 10) for the bearing (12) that will be pressed into the knuckle (not shown) but I can't e sure.

I'm wondering just how big of a bottle jack you can fit into the Grenadier's jack space? Could you pull off a bearing replacement with a Hi-Lift if truly desperate?



Such a killjoy.

I've changed wheel bearings and hubs in many vehicles.
Big and small.
When the industry went to sealed units it improved reliability within boundaries, but all but eliminated field repair.
You can go 300k with sealed hubs, but I can't guarantee that result in regular mud , water, or sand.
I don't know what a hub asm weighs, but I wouldn't head across the Sahara without carrying one for each side.

 

[bodhizaffa]

I'm in the UK. My vehicle is four months old. I was expecting to have to get used to the steering system from all the reviews. The stability at anything over 60mph feels unstable, but I thought it was just a characteristic and got used to driving slower, especially on motorways. I've got a loan car as mine is in for the software update and a few other things. The loaner stability is much better than mine, and it felt okay even at 80 miles per hour. My steering feels to have a bit more play when turning, and the loan car feels much more directional and safe. I'm waiting for the dealer to return, but I am worried that they will say nothing is wrong, and I have to live with it. Any thought on possible problems?

I'm having the exact same experience. Just took mine in for the second time for them to take a look at how the car pulls hard to the left when accelerating. They assured me everything was great after they checked alignment.... sure enough, on the drive home it is still auto lane changing when accelerating. I'm wondering if it could be the tires.

 

[terdrocket]

I'm having the exact same experience. Just took mine in for the second time for them to take a look at how the car pulls hard to the left when accelerating. They assured me everything was great after they checked alignment.... sure enough, on the drive home it is still auto lane changing when accelerating. I'm wondering if it could be the tires.

I would take it to an independent shop, preferably someone that is familiar with Jeeps, and have them do an alignment.

 

[ZemTyrion]

I would say the biggest change for me was the Fox steering damper. Lowering tire pressure was also a significant change, but not nearly as big as the damper.

 

[Aussie Battler]

I'm in the UK. My vehicle is four months old. I was expecting to have to get used to the steering system from all the reviews. The stability at anything over 60mph feels unstable, but I thought it was just a characteristic and got used to driving slower, especially on motorways. I've got a loan car as mine is in for the software update and a few other things. The loaner stability is much better than mine, and it felt okay even at 80 miles per hour. My steering feels to have a bit more play when turning, and the loan car feels much more directional and safe. I'm waiting for the dealer to return, but I am worried that they will say nothing is wrong, and I have to live with it. Any thought on possible problems?

A lot of discussion regarding the steering and many theroies and possible solutions . I found the steering vauge or fluffy or something I was not quite used to and found my self prefering my old disco 2 td5 to drive when I needed to go some where , I am not saying the IG is bad but I just did not like the feel of chasing it on of Victorias top class straight but bumpy roads . Today I took it to a steering specialist and asked if he could check the castor and increase it if it was low , he took it for a test drive and when he came back he said the same thing ,there is nothing wrong wit the steering but it could be better . He put it on the machine and it was in spec but on the low side ,1.5 on the left and 2 and a bit on the right , so he adjusted it up to the max spec of 3.5 on both front wheels and got it within .5 of a degree . He also checked the rear and it was in spec but not the same on both sides which He said would give it that wandering feeling so He evened that up and I drove a completly different car home , steering felt solid and no chasing on our excelent bumpy /rough roads best $77 I have ever spent

 

[Davman]

A lot of discussion regarding the steering and many theroies and possible solutions . I found the steering vauge or fluffy or something I was not quite used to and found my self prefering my old disco 2 td5 to drive when I needed to go some where , I am not saying the IG is bad but I just did not like the feel of chasing it on of Victorias top class straight but bumpy roads . Today I took it to a steering specialist and asked if he could check the castor and increase it if it was low , he took it for a test drive and when he came back he said the same thing ,there is nothing wrong wit the steering but it could be better . He put it on the machine and it was in spec but on the low side ,1.5 on the left and 2 and a bit on the right , so he adjusted it up to the max spec of 3.5 on both front wheels and got it within .5 of a degree . He also checked the rear and it was in spec but not the same on both sides which He said would give it that wandering feeling so He evened that up and I drove a completly different car home , steering felt solid and no chasing on our excelent bumpy /rough roads best $77 I have ever spent

Where was your steering specialist?

 

[pmatusov]

A lot of discussion regarding the steering and many theroies and possible solutions . I found the steering vauge or fluffy or something I was not quite used to and found my self prefering my old disco 2 td5 to drive when I needed to go some where , I am not saying the IG is bad but I just did not like the feel of chasing it on of Victorias top class straight but bumpy roads . Today I took it to a steering specialist and asked if he could check the castor and increase it if it was low , he took it for a test drive and when he came back he said the same thing ,there is nothing wrong wit the steering but it could be better . He put it on the machine and it was in spec but on the low side ,1.5 on the left and 2 and a bit on the right , so he adjusted it up to the max spec of 3.5 on both front wheels and got it within .5 of a degree . He also checked the rear and it was in spec but not the same on both sides which He said would give it that wandering feeling so He evened that up and I drove a completly different car home , steering felt solid and no chasing on our excelent bumpy /rough roads best $77 I have ever spent

It makes me wonder how, on a solid axle, can caster be adjusted differently for different sides.

 

[bbq4133]

Folks who've installed the Fox stabilizer, Agile's instructions mentions the possible necessity of "opening up" one of the brackets on the truck. Any insight into this?

 

[MTNDOG]

Folks who've installed the Fox stabilizer, Agile's instructions mentions the possible necessity of "opening up" one of the brackets on the truck. Any insight into this?

It makes me wonder if some of our vehicles have had the steering stabilizer over torqued and essentially crushing the bracket and preventing free range of motion of the stabilizer. Thus necessitating the need to open up the bracket to install the fox stabilizer. Hopefully @ZemTyrion can give some insight on the part about opening the bracket.

 

[ZemTyrion]

The bracket is just a little narrow for what you are shoving in there, particularly because there are two fat washers, so you need to line up the holes in all three at the same time. This was the only tricky part of the install, and why I put it on my lift after starting on the garage floor. But what I eventually worked out would probably have worked on the floor.

Without the damper, I partially threaded the bolt back into place in the bracket. Then I used a bearing puller to shove the bolt in all the way. The nut is welded onto the bracket, so this pushed the two plates apart. I let it sit like that for a few minutes. It was just enough to get everything in there. I think once you see it this will make sense, but I'm going to make use of my incredible Paint skills here. The goal is to just spread apart the C bracket a little bit. Also, I don't know how to draw a bearing puller.

 

[MTNDOG]

The bracket is just a little narrow for what you are shoving in there, particularly because there are two fat washers, so you need to line up the holes in all three at the same time. This was the only tricky part of the install, and why I put it on my lift after starting on the garage floor. But what I eventually worked out would probably have worked on the floor.

Without the damper, I partially threaded the bolt back into place in the bracket. Then I used a bearing puller to shove the bolt in all the way. The nut is welded onto the bracket, so this pushed the two plates apart. I let it sit like that for a few minutes. It was just enough to get everything in there. I think once you see it this will make sense, but I'm going to make use of my incredible Paint skills here. The goal is to just spread apart the C bracket a little bit. Also, I don't know how to draw a bearing puller.

View attachment 7853535

Did you get any sense that the original steering stabilizer might bind in the bracket if it was overtightened?

 

[grenadierguy]

The bracket is just a little narrow for what you are shoving in there, particularly because there are two fat washers, so you need to line up the holes in all three at the same time. This was the only tricky part of the install, and why I put it on my lift after starting on the garage floor. But what I eventually worked out would probably have worked on the floor.

Without the damper, I partially threaded the bolt back into place in the bracket. Then I used a bearing puller to shove the bolt in all the way. The nut is welded onto the bracket, so this pushed the two plates apart. I let it sit like that for a few minutes. It was just enough to get everything in there. I think once you see it this will make sense, but I'm going to make use of my incredible Paint skills here. The goal is to just spread apart the C bracket a little bit. Also, I don't know how to draw a bearing puller.

View attachment 7853535

Your drawing is top notch, appreciate it! I would love to try your vehicle out and compare it, I'm in the Denver Metro Area... half way to Boulder.

 

[Clark Kent]

It makes me wonder how, on a solid axle, can caster be adjusted differently for different sides.

Good point. Axle housing and knuckle manufacturing tolerances is all I can think of that might present different readings, but no amount of eccentric bolt adjustment is going to eliminate that. Sounds like old mate maxxed out the available castor adjustment and got a more consistent side to side 2nd reading after adjustment. In the process he may have unwittingly eliminated a minor left versus right wheelbase mismatch which would create a crabbing force and contribute to wandering due to tracking.

But all that aside, it's another pointer for those who are troubled by their steering to get a good front and rear wheel alignment. My agent did an alignment and handled me the report as part of pre-delivery. My steering has been good from day one. On road unladen, I run 40psi cold for reduced tyre wear on the BFG KO2s.

 

[bbq4133]

The bracket is just a little narrow for what you are shoving in there, particularly because there are two fat washers, so you need to line up the holes in all three at the same time. This was the only tricky part of the install, and why I put it on my lift after starting on the garage floor. But what I eventually worked out would probably have worked on the floor.

Without the damper, I partially threaded the bolt back into place in the bracket. Then I used a bearing puller to shove the bolt in all the way. The nut is welded onto the bracket, so this pushed the two plates apart. I let it sit like that for a few minutes. It was just enough to get everything in there. I think once you see it this will make sense, but I'm going to make use of my incredible Paint skills here. The goal is to just spread apart the C bracket a little bit. Also, I don't know how to draw a bearing puller.

View attachment 7853535

I do not have a bearing puller but I may have to acquire one!