Diff breathers

DaveB · Nov 21, 2022

DCPU said:
Never really understood that design ~ go to all that effort and terminate under the bonnet with no shield or cover. Drop into a hole whilst wading and...

Much prefer this arrangement:
View attachment 7796493

Of course any manifold introduceds a single point of failure, early Camel Trophy vehicles used to route all the separate breathers up the snorkel. Looked a little messy but where function is the absolute design criteria perhaps better.

I didn't design it, only posted it.

bnebenda · Nov 22, 2022

DaveB said:
What would they know about building a tough 4WD?????

I'd say engineers from Magna Steyr have some (limited

) experience building proper 4 wheelers as they were involved in others similar cars before (like e.g. the G-wagon). Admittedly they are not german but austrian, though

DaveB · Nov 22, 2022

bnebenda said:
I'd say engineers from Magna Steyr have some (limited ) experience building proper 4 wheelers as they were involved in others similar cars before (like e.g. the G-wagon). Admittedly they are not german but austrian, though

Exactly my tongue in cheek comment
If I had to build a real 4Wd
and I was a billionaire
I would definitely invite them to the pub for a beer

DaveB · Dec 15, 2022

Ric said this morning that the diffs are sealed and don't have breathers

DenisM · Jan 25, 2023

DaveB said:
Ric said this morning that the diffs are sealed and don't have breathers

I recall my RRP38 had 4 breather tubes that terminated at a common point in the engine bay..
Like others I am quite surprised that breathers appear to be missing from the IG axles, transmission and transfer case... I await with interest, the final configuration to see how the seal pressure gradients are solved.

ECrider · Jan 25, 2023

Same here DenisM. 'One-Way' valve, if the case seems unusual.

bemax · Jan 26, 2023

ECrider said:
Same here DenisM. 'One-Way' valve, if the case seems unusual.

A one way valve is pointless if there is not a second one way valve in with an opposite direction of flow somewhere.
If it gets hot the air will go out. If it gets cold the air has to go in.
A one way valve would mean air goes out in warm conditions and under cold conditions there is just an underpressure…

Jean Mercier · Jan 26, 2023

bemax said:
A one way valve is pointless if there is not a second one way valve in with an opposite direction of flow somewhere.
If it gets hot the air will go out. If it gets cold the air has to go in.
A one way valve would mean air goes out in warm conditions and under cold conditions there is just an underpressure…

I heard for the first time in my life about these valves here, so am a complete novice. I am just wondering ... valves are never completely 100% tight, perfection only exists on paper. What if overpressure is dramatic, and underpressure isn't, and the "slow underpessure leaks" are sufficient to bring slowly everything back to normal?
Just thinking ... perhaps a stupid argument (but please don't call me stupid, only my argument

)

rovie · Jan 26, 2023

bemax said:
A one way valve is pointless if there is not a second one way valve in with an opposite direction of flow somewhere.
If it gets hot the air will go out. If it gets cold the air has to go in.
A one way valve would mean air goes out in warm conditions and under cold conditions there is just an underpressure…

Let's assume that those who build the axles know what they are doing.

Stu_Barnes · Jan 26, 2023

Wasn't there a picture somewhere of an expansion bellows setup?

Stu_Barnes · Jan 26, 2023

Reviews Coming...

There's only one water crossing feared by men and Gods! Get the Grendaier down to Rufford Ford.... THEN we can talk 😜

www.theineosforum.com

yes there was...

Tazzieman · Jan 26, 2023

rovie said:
Let's assume that those who build the axles know what they are doing.

As my father says , that's a way to make an ass out of u and me.
Irrelevant I know but you will never look at that word the same way again!

rovie · Jan 26, 2023

Tazzieman said:
As my father says , that's a way to make an ass out of u and me.
Irrelevant I know but you will never look at that word the same way again!

CountyV8 · Jan 26, 2023

How about something like this

Nugget Stuff – Buy custom Australian 4WD accessories online

bemax · Jan 26, 2023

rovie said:
Let's assume that those who build the axles know what they are doing.

they will know for sure. But there’s still no explanation for for me how it should work only with one way valves…

DCPU · Jan 26, 2023

bemax said:
A one way valve is pointless if there is not a second one way valve in with an opposite direction of flow somewhere.
If it gets hot the air will go out. If it gets cold the air has to go in.
A one way valve would mean air goes out in warm conditions and under cold conditions there is just an underpressure…

It may seem pointless but it's the standard setup in a number of well engineered vehicles.

Axle ends aren't gas tight; and pulling air in is not really an issue. The issue is blowing oil out. Look at the design of the seal lips and how they work more in one direction than the other.

bemax · Jan 27, 2023

DCPU said:
It may seem pointless but it's the standard setup in a number of well engineered vehicles.

Axle ends aren't gas tight; and pulling air in is not really an issue. The issue is blowing oil out. Look at the design of the seal lips and how they work more in one direction than the other.

So you assume that the construction itself works as the inlet valve?

Steve.B · Jan 27, 2023

In an engine you need the engine oil temperature to be over 100c to evaporate water off, water is a by product of combustion.
So if you do water crossing with a warm diff without a raised breather water is going to stream past the seals, and unless the diffs heat up to over 100c which is extremely doubtful we have a problem. I have drained many of my 4x4 diffs and gearboxes with milky oil in the past without adequate breathers.

DCPU · Jan 27, 2023

bemax said:
So you assume that the construction itself works as the inlet valve?

Well if you have water in your diffs/milky oil/more volume than you put in, then the fact is that liquid must be getting in somehow. It is after all the very issue that the breather is supposed to help counter.

What are the choices - axle seals, incorrectly operating breather tube, porous axle, vandalism?

I'm not saying you couldn't fit a two way valve, and indeed I think some may, but what purpose is it serving? Or more precisely, what range of pressure differentials is it going to operate over? What if it's under water when it opens?

frankkk · Jan 27, 2023

bnebenda said:
I'd say engineers from Magna Steyr have some (limited ) experience building proper 4 wheelers as they were involved in others similar cars before (like e.g. the G-wagon). Admittedly they are not german but austrian, though

Austria has been assimilated..way back..

Stu_Barnes · Jan 27, 2023

I’m still going to sit on the side of the fence of extended breather hose to a protected upper part of the vehicle with a sintered bronze filter on the end.

But if they released the cad-it or better still part’s catalogue we would know….

DCPU · Jan 27, 2023

Parts catalogue *should* be part of the CAD-IT system.

If I have a concern though, it's the complete silence on the system and whether they've been forced to row back on the big promises originally made...off to annoy our resident agent...

Stu_Barnes · Jan 27, 2023

DCPU said:
Parts catalogue *should* be part of the CAD-IT system.

If I have a concern though, it's the complete silence on the system and whether they've been forced to row back on the big promises originally made...off to annoy our resident agent...

I think you’re right. I queried if BMW had sanctioned a repair manual to be put into the public domain, same with ZF. And got a very politic reply.
As ever give it 6 months and the black market will provide. Sadly.

DCPU · Jan 28, 2023

I don't think there should be an issue technically or corporately ~ after all you can get nearly the same for a new Defender via their system called Topix. OK no BMW engine but ZF gearboxes are in there.

But the Topix system is a revenue generator and recurrent at that. I'm sure ZF get a cut somewhere along the line; and that's my concern. Have new people come into the project and questioned why they are giving away a good revenue stream free of charge especially as it's going to cost them to licence the platform from CAD-IT?

This was a major selling point of the Ineos Grenadier for me, if it falls short of what was promised then it will be a big disappointment.

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