Americas The big May 17 Announcement / Pricing / Discussion thread.

[Sekurt]

Great app - and I know it’s a Toyota, but I imagine after 105k miles you might be due for an oil change!!!

(Kidding - I know not everyone tracks that part, but I saw your $0.00 service costs and couldn’t resist).

I’m very particular about logging my Canyon - here’s mine so far; everything including over a grand in tires though it was used with low mileage so this isn’t 100% tracked:

View attachment 7812849

@ChasingOurTrunks hahaha, yeah cheap maintenance right!!! I’ve always been more interested in fuel usage than tracking total expenses. Honestly I never wanted to track the build cost as I knew it would make me sick to my stomach. The suspension alone was right about 10k in 2015 money

 

[3DDiY]

I think that your comparison to a luxury brand is not relevant as the Grenadier is not marketing its self as a “luxury” brand and is not catering to that clientele. Also those brands are charging a premium for their embedded advance technology and the cost to maintain that advance tech. Also you are tied to that brands echo system for warranty and in many cases after warranty repairs. Ineos has said they will support third party Bosch service centres and DIY repair . Modern Mercedes has never been associated with reliability and robustness. The cost to repair something is only a concern if there is something that needs repairing. Take Lexus as an example.

It not a traditional luxury brand in the sense that its not following amenities and premium comfort. But at a price point that its expensive and not attainable by others at the cost level is a luxury thing to have. That it has features desired by a group of people and paying a premium for it is Luxury. Average price of a car in the usa is 48k where as luxury car prices are 75k. Which spec'ed trial master is beyond that. Also the argument that brands are charging a premium for their embed advanced tech is poor in this case. I just put in a down payment for a defender today that is comparable to a build to that of the grenadier. With savings of almost 30k, this includes terrain response, electronic Dif locks, auto emergency breaking, adaptive cruise control, 360 cameras, etc all included. So in theory all those analog mechanical things should be cheaper and easier to maintain. Yet you are paying a premium for it off the bat. This is where it boggles my mind on the price tag and the "value" of the grenadier. This is proven technology and old school parts already developed and off the shelf. How has the price inflated so much for simplicity. Yet other brands have way more parts and chips and computers have to source from even more places and yet keep costs down. The argument is low volume. Okay, so the cost again is put on those buying the grenadier then and not the actual value of the car.

 

[pioneerofthenile]

It not a traditional luxury brand in the sense that its not following amenities and premium comfort. But at a price point that its expensive and not attainable by others at the cost level is a luxury thing to have. That it has features desired by a group of people and paying a premium for it is Luxury. Average price of a car in the usa is 48k where as luxury car prices are 75k. Which spec'ed trial master is beyond that. Also the argument that brands are charging a premium for their embed advanced tech is poor in this case. I just put in a down payment for a defender today that is comparable to a build to that of the grenadier. With savings of almost 30k, this includes terrain response, electronic Dif locks, auto emergency breaking, adaptive cruise control, 360 cameras, etc all included. So in theory all those analog mechanical things should be cheaper and easier to maintain. Yet you are paying a premium for it off the bat. This is where it boggles my mind on the price tag and the "value" of the grenadier. This is proven technology and old school parts already developed and off the shelf. How has the price inflated so much for simplicity. Yet other brands have way more parts and chips and computers have to source from even more places and yet keep costs down. The argument is low volume. Okay, so the cost again is put on those buying the grenadier then and not the actual value of the car.

the grenadier is expensive. does it have to be this much? I don't know. but ineos has been on the level with us about pricing, but it seems like people have an imaginary price point where they need to be and go into conniptions if it goes over it....

I do know that a new defender would never be on my wish list. having owned several rovers, buying a new one just seems like a waste of money considering all the problems they have. they're just problematic, expensive and don't last. sure they're comfortable, and higher end. but people love to key and screw with your car because of the stigma around it. it's just an image I don't want. even if the purchase wasn't image related.

if the IG is problematic then we're all pretty much fvkd. I will say that hearing all these electrical problems from new owners is very concerning.

I won't forecast the future but this car could easily make it into videos where "cars that bombed" years later. as well as having celebs or influencers making it a must have. all it would take a 1 or 2 of them to pimp this this and every clown will want one.

 

[Loc Nar]

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A little background - I am currently driving a 2007 Range Rover I bought used in 2009 that has 165k miles on it. I carefully select cars, take good care of them, and drive them until the wheels fall off. Next year my wife and I will be empty nesters and she is very much on board with the idea of building out an overland camping rig to get out there and start having some adventures. Early on, I zeroed in on the Grenadier as the best base for that build and we have both been following the development. She even accompanied me to the test drive event. She knew I was interested in the Trialmaster, and I previously told her I thought it would list for $75,000. So, I set the expectations early for the price range. She also knew pricing was going to be released last week, but had not researched it. I played it cool and waited for her to bring up the subject, which she did this weekend. The conversation went great and this is pretty much exactly how it went (from memory):

AC: So, have you heard anything about the Grenadier pricing yet?

LN: Yeah, I was pretty close on my prediction. The Trialmaster is listed at $79,190. [Sigh] I was hoping for $75,000, but damn inflation is relentless. I was trying to get a handle on that and did some research - when we bought your car, the MSRP and options we selected came to almost $59,000. You know what that would be in today's dollars?

AC: I'm guessing somewhere in the $70's. [Cue Yello's "Oh Yeah"]

LN: Yep, around $74,000. [pause to let that sink in] I'm currently going over the Trialmaster options to narrow down the essentials to keep the total price down. For example, I don't really think we [we're in this together!] need heated seats and I think we can pass on the privacy glass and get the windows tinted aftermarket down the road.

AC: What options have you selected so far?

LN: Tow hitch for hauling stuff, rock sliders to protect the door sills, checker plate to strengthen the hood and they look cool, cross bars for the roof top tent, and the one real indulgence so far is saddle leather for the steering wheel and parking brake. I'm also debating the safari windows. I'm trying to keep the total around $85k.

AC: That would be good.

LN: I know this is a big investment, but [smiling] you know, it's not really an investment in a car. It's an investment . . .

AC: [laughing - she knew where I was going and finished the sentence] In us.

LN: [smiling] Yep.

 

[MilesD]

Kinda -

The summary so far:

Americans are upset and expected it to be cheaper. Some are dropping out but it’s not clear if it’s any more/less than the 50% expected. Americans are actually getting the same value for money as the Australians more or less. So whatever happened after the announcement in Australia is likely to similarly happen in America. There are 330 million of them after all - surely a few thousand will proceed with purchase.

Canadians got more of a sticker shock and we spent all our money on pointy sticks to fend off the polar bears, so we don’t have the same “it’s the same as Australia” value proposition here and the Gren is looking like it’ll cost a lot more loonies here than we expected. There will likely be more attrition in Canada, but TBD.

And South Africans are getting the best deal on Big Macs, and some people prefer Porches to Civics and vise versa.

How’d I do with that summary of 30 pages, gents?

you missed the brits....... after a rollercoaster of emotions..... we went to the pub .....which luckily SJR supplied as he knew this would happen

 

[Krabby]

______________________________________________________________________ View attachment 7812825___________________________________________________________________

A little background - I am currently driving a 2007 Range Rover I bought used in 2009 that has 165k miles on it. I carefully select cars, take good care of them, and drive them until the wheels fall off. Next year my wife and I will be empty nesters and she is very much on board with the idea of building out an overland camping rig to get out there and start having some adventures. Early on, I zeroed in on the Grenadier as the best base for that build and we have both been following the development. She even accompanied me to the test drive event. She knew I was interested in the Trialmaster, and I previously told her I thought it would list for $75,000. So, I set the expectations early for the price range. She also knew pricing was going to be released last week, but had not researched it. I played it cool and waited for her to bring up the subject, which she did this weekend. The conversation went great and this is pretty much exactly how it went (from memory):

AC: So, have you heard anything about the Grenadier pricing yet?

LN: Yeah, I was pretty close on my prediction. The Trialmaster is listed at $79,190. [Sigh] I was hoping for $75,000, but damn inflation is relentless. I was trying to get a handle on that and did some research - when we bought your car, the MSRP and options we selected came to almost $59,000. You know what that would be in today's dollars?

AC: I'm guessing somewhere in the $70's. [Cue Yello's "Oh Yeah"]

LN: Yep, around $74,000. [pause to let that sink in] I'm currently going over the Trialmaster options to narrow down the essentials to keep the total price down. For example, I don't really think we [we're in this together!] need heated seats and I think we can pass on the privacy glass and get the windows tinted aftermarket down the road.

AC: What options have you selected so far?

LN: Tow hitch for hauling stuff, rock sliders to protect the door sills, checker plate to strengthen the hood and they look cool, cross bars for the roof top tent, and the one real indulgence so far is saddle leather for the steering wheel and parking brake. I'm also debating the safari windows. I'm trying to keep the total around $85k.

AC: That would be good.

LN: I know this is a big investment, but [smiling] you know, it's not really an investment in a car. It's an investment . . .

AC: [laughing - she knew where I was going and finished the sentence] In us.

LN: [smiling] Yep.

Which drive event were you at?

 

[Zimm]

Ah, except that the actual cost of ownership over the life of the vehicle needs to include that 15 and 14 mpg fuel economy ratings, especially since most vehicles do not achieve the rated milage in real life

Which is a little bit of a mystery to me. Over at Expedition Portal a new factory offroad setup silverado on 35's was reported by Brady as getting low 20's. My f150 puts out 300hp and is averaging 19 in hilly, stop sign laden Pittsburgh. My lx470 on 35's was checking in at 7700lbs for adventures and produced 14MPG in the Appalachain's... Did they set the engine up with a small fast spooling turbo to keep it into the blower all the time to produce low end torque?

 

[Loc Nar]

Which drive event were you at?

Dahlonega. Was a blast.

 

[Zimm]

It’s possible that the corrugations we respectively have in mind here differ more than one might expect.

That said, reservoir shocks (that can shed accumulated heat); tyre pressure; speed; wheel diameter; and vehicle weight are all somewhat more impactful than axle type.

This observation based on Wrangler versus LR DS so all very apples<>oranges.

Remember Merc sending over G's to do a tour with the stock Sach's shocks? That one didn't end well.

 

[Offtrack Traveler]

How many and how long has the Ineos been on the road? I'm not quite sure we know if it is a Red Wing or a Walmart boot, yet. I sure hope it is more of a Nicks boot, as the places I plan on taking it are not going to be near a dealer or even a certified service center, whatever or wherever that might be. A Jeep will have support in most any town in the US. Minus 1 Volvo, I feel like all my cars/trucks/SUVs have been Walmart cars, basic maintenance took care of the Walmart cars. Keeping the Volvo happy got a tad bit more involved and considerably more expensive, before we let it go..... Funny, just looked out the window as the neighbors Tesla went by on a flatbed.

Careful now, the wildland firefighter in you is coming out with the Nicks boots comment. Those are expensive yet great boots for the fire service, the only ones that would hold up for me.
It will take a long time for the IG to reach the support and parts availability of a Jeep. Not to say the IG is bad at all, it's just going to be a bit longer path to get that support when things do happen. If some down time is of no worry then you just plan for it and expect you might have to wait some extra time. I have off roaded a very large and specialized truck all over the western USA in areas that would put me in jail if I did it for fun today. This was an International 4800 4x4 fire truck (type 4X engine). While it was super handy and very capable for its size I knew that it was not as easy to repair or get support as the smaller trucks on the fires. I had to carry seals for the transfer case that most of the International dealers did not carry in stock and this truck was bought brand new for the job. That truck still had more support then the IG has right now, few years and we will see. Not to discourage anyone getting one just need to keep in mind of the support level right now when buying one and plan accordingly.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

the grenadier is expensive. does it have to be this much? I don't know. but ineos has been on the level with us about pricing, but it seems like people have an imaginary price point where they need to be and go into conniptions if it goes over it....

I do know that a new defender would never be on my wish list. having owned several rovers, buying a new one just seems like a waste of money considering all the problems they have. they're just problematic, expensive and don't last. sure they're comfortable, and higher end. but people love to key and screw with your car because of the stigma around it. it's just an image I don't want. even if the purchase wasn't image related.

if the IG is problematic then we're all pretty much fvkd. I will say that hearing all these electrical problems from new owners is very concerning.

I won't forecast the future but this car could easily make it into videos where "cars that bombed" years later. as well as having celebs or influencers making it a must have. all it would take a 1 or 2 of them to pimp this this and every clown will want one.

I don’t disagree with most of what yo wrote but I would say, based on 37 pages, a lot of folks would question your statement about Ineos being “on the level” with pricing.

I don’t believe they lied or weren’t “on the level” or anything, but they didn’t quite hit where a lot of people expected them to — I chalk this up to poorly managed expectations rather than “not on the level” though. They landed far more expensively than we were told to expect - More than the New Defender, which they told us they were aiming at being under.

Checking every box puts me at $156,000+ - granted I don’t need an Ineos shovel of course - but as I look at that number and remember hearing we’d be “hard pressed” to get past $100k on the Configurator just 11 months ago, I’m not sure they hit where we hoped.

My point is, I’m not surprised that people are surprised when I see these numbers.

______________________________________________________________________ View attachment 7812825___________________________________________________________________

A little background - I am currently driving a 2007 Range Rover I bought used in 2009 that has 165k miles on it. I carefully select cars, take good care of them, and drive them until the wheels fall off. Next year my wife and I will be empty nesters and she is very much on board with the idea of building out an overland camping rig to get out there and start having some adventures. Early on, I zeroed in on the Grenadier as the best base for that build and we have both been following the development. She even accompanied me to the test drive event. She knew I was interested in the Trialmaster, and I previously told her I thought it would list for $75,000. So, I set the expectations early for the price range. She also knew pricing was going to be released last week, but had not researched it. I played it cool and waited for her to bring up the subject, which she did this weekend. The conversation went great and this is pretty much exactly how it went (from memory):

AC: So, have you heard anything about the Grenadier pricing yet?

LN: Yeah, I was pretty close on my prediction. The Trialmaster is listed at $79,190. [Sigh] I was hoping for $75,000, but damn inflation is relentless. I was trying to get a handle on that and did some research - when we bought your car, the MSRP and options we selected came to almost $59,000. You know what that would be in today's dollars?

AC: I'm guessing somewhere in the $70's. [Cue Yello's "Oh Yeah"]

LN: Yep, around $74,000. [pause to let that sink in] I'm currently going over the Trialmaster options to narrow down the essentials to keep the total price down. For example, I don't really think we [we're in this together!] need heated seats and I think we can pass on the privacy glass and get the windows tinted aftermarket down the road.

AC: What options have you selected so far?

LN: Tow hitch for hauling stuff, rock sliders to protect the door sills, checker plate to strengthen the hood and they look cool, cross bars for the roof top tent, and the one real indulgence so far is saddle leather for the steering wheel and parking brake. I'm also debating the safari windows. I'm trying to keep the total around $85k.

AC: That would be good.

LN: I know this is a big investment, but [smiling] you know, it's not really an investment in a car. It's an investment . . .

AC: [laughing - she knew where I was going and finished the sentence] In us.

LN: [smiling] Yep.

It’s like watching Van Gogh paint. Your strategic use of “we” is a lesson for all husbands and wives who need to get past appropriations of their other half.

Can you go manage this debt ceiling thing next?

 

[zvakanaka]

OK but, how much higher than your expectations - 10%, 15%, 20%?

I think about 10% higher then expected but what isn't getting near $100K (or higher)these days?

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

Careful now, the wildland firefighter in you is coming out with the Nicks boots comment. Those are expensive yet great boots for the fire service, the only ones that would hold up for me.
It will take a long time for the IG to reach the support and parts availability of a Jeep. Not to say the IG is bad at all, it's just going to be a bit longer path to get that support when things do happen. If some down time is of no worry then you just plan for it and expect you might have to wait some extra time. I have off roaded a very large and specialized truck all over the western USA in areas that would put me in jail if I did it for fun today. This was an International 4800 4x4 fire truck (type 4X engine). While it was super handy and very capable for its size I knew that it was not as easy to repair or get support as the smaller trucks on the fires. I had to carry seals for the transfer case that most of the International dealers did not carry in stock and this truck was bought brand new for the job. That truck still had more support then the IG has right now, few years and we will see. Not to discharge anyone getting one just need to keep in mind of the support level right now when buying one and plan accordingly.

I’m not sure it will take them too long to get the same support network as Jeep. I think it very much depends on the model used to distribute/respond to customer need.

For example when my JK blew its clutch I needed a new one. Dealerships wanted shy of $2k for the “Omix Ada” OEM option and it would take two weeks to arrive. The LUK kit wasn’t available anywhere in Canada and the nature of the weight of it meant shipping from the US was expensive.

There was a tiny little upstart 4x4 shop in Edmonton called 4 wheel parts. They are part of a large chain in the USA but the Edmonton shop was, I think, one of the first in Canada. Anyway they had the Centreforce clutch kit, but not in stock, but I ordered it at 2:00 PM and was holding in my hands by the next day because they had it in a warehouse in Idaho and had an extremely good dispatch system.

So, I’m imagining that if they nail this online, CAD based service manual, the only remaining question is parts. I think an NA warehouse is a must, but build it next to a FedEx distribution airport, and it’s possible that you can get next-day parts in the lower 48.

With those two things together, you should be able to take your Grenadier to any local shop for any repairs one is unable to do themselves. In small rural areas especially, folks in this position likely already have “a guy” that they know reasonably well and would trust to work on their machines, and if Ineos nails the support they are aiming at, I think it won’t be at luxury car shop rates either.

In cities and population centres it might be another story, but that’s where the dealerships are.

So while I agree with you it will take a long time for Ineos to have a dealership in every town with more than 10k people the way Jeep/Ford/GM does, I wouldn’t say that the level of support will be wildly different until I see how they role this out, because they could use a model that means the Gren is supported quite broadly and easily.

Maybe.

 

[Stu_Barnes]

The service concern is a very valid one. Here's my perspective.

Engine:
BMW have over 360 dealerships in the USA, there are countless more specialists, the engine in the Grenadier is a BMW, in a pinch you could even take it to a Toyota dealership for service, if theres a new Supra on the forecourt then you'll be fine, Toyota have 1270 locations.

Transmission:
The ZF gearbox in the Grenadier is used by a lot of manufacturers, Alfa Romeo, Aston Martin, Audi, Bentley, BMW, Chrysler, Dodge, Great Wall Motors, Haval, IVECO, Jaguar, JEEP, JMC, Lamborghini, Land Rover, MAN, Maserati, Morgan, Porsche, Ram Trucks, Rolls-Royce, Toyota, Vin Fast and Volkswagen. So from this list we probably have a service facility for the transmission within a few miles of every town in North America thats before the independent transmission shops. AAMCO have over 600 locations alone.

Axles:
Let's say this is a hyper specific axle that isn't serviced in North America. But it's a solid axle made by a heavy equipment manufacturer. With the correct manuals, any competent 4WD mechanic, farm machinery facility (if they let you) or jeep mechanic should be able to service these. Transfer case etc would fall under the same I'm thinking.

General maintenance:
We have the EU to thank for the right to repair.

"Access to vehicle repair and maintenance information​

Easy and clear access to information on vehicle repair and maintenance (RMI) is key to guaranteeing free competition on the vehicle aftermarket. Manufacturers must ensure that independent operators have easy, restriction-free, and standardised access to information on the repair and maintenance of vehicles. Discrimination with respect to authorized dealers and repair workshops is not allowed."
So there will be maintenance manuals available in Europe at some point, the NA Grenadier is the same as the European vehicle in almost all regards.

I think I've covered the most complicated parts of the vehicle, yes there are very few INEOS dealerships and designated service centers, but you don't have to use them for servicing and routine maintenance. Unless I'm mistaken, there are laws in the USA specifically to address this and protect the consumer. For warranty work, INEOS can nominate a repair facility to perform the work required if they wish.

To finish my rambling on this Sunday morning, I'm lucky that I'm in LA* if I was in a state without a dealership then I'd be miffed by the lack of convenience however I'd probably enjoy the road trip home because if I'm buying this vehicle then I'm going to enjoy driving it.

All in all I'm not that shocked or worried or concerned about the dealership coverage, warranty issues or maintenance and servicing, provided parts availability is ensured. This is just me though and we make decisions, especially very expensive ones (which for most of us this is), based on all the information at hand.

*(yes my Grenadier if I purchase will be used to go on the school run, grocery store and to commute as well as all the other day to day things that I need a vehicle for including recreational off-roading.)

 

[CB]

Pricing for US reservation holders, such as myself, who paid to reserve a vehicle more than 1.5 years ago when this vehicle was a nothing more than a dream, should be the price prior to the increase; same as was extended to European reservation holders. Early reservation holders gave Ineos the ability to brag about how many US customers were interested in purchasing their vehicle. Consequently, Ineos reps made a point of emphasizing the limited supply destined for the US market, which in turn most likely encouraged more people to place a reservation.

 

[MileHigh]

Has anyone looked at what the pricing was for the old defenders before they were discontinued, and compared them kind of to the IG? Maybe benchmark

 

[Stu_Barnes]

38,400 gbp in 2015 I think.

 

[MileHigh]

Pricing for US reservation holders, such as myself, who paid to reserve a vehicle more than 1.5 years ago when this vehicle was a nothing more than a dream, should be the price prior to the increase; same as was extended to European reservation holders. Early reservation holders gave Ineos the ability to brag about how many US customers were interested in purchasing their vehicle. Consequently, Ineos reps made a point of emphasizing the limited supply destined for the US market, which in turn most likely encouraged more people to place a reservation.

Heck, yes. Ineos missed a real opportunity to do some messaging here with some pricing. A lower price for reservation holders would have definitely created some good will and pressure to convert the reservations. Right now, there is no ‘first-mover‘ advantage. And at this time the news from the EU is ‘mixed’ on deliveries and reliability. Even if the pricing for reservation holders was just half way to the full price how (5K off), that would have been a real sign.

Southwest Airlines and Lexus did a good job at launches to get the idea that they were every bit as good or better while being cheaper. SWA I find now to be more expensive than UNited- but when people are looking to buy a ticker, they think that SWA will be cheaper. I don’t think Lexus is selling at a discount anymore.

Ineos set a perception a few years ago and then threw it away. Reservation holder pricing was a perfect time to set perceptions- and I think IG blew it.

 

[MileHigh]

38,400 gbp in 2015 I think.

That works out to 49500 GBP in 2023 according to BoE. And just a straight conversion to USD is $61.5k

Pricing isn’t cost, it is what the market will pay though. IG thinks that they can get what their doing.

I think it highly unlikley, but we are All enthusisists here, that the struggle to get MSRP on the ‘orders’ After the reservations are filled…. Not likely, but it would be highly corrosive to the brand. Like an IPO that falls.

 

[painter]

Heck, yes. Ineos missed a real opportunity to do some messaging here with some pricing. A lower price for reservation holders would have definitely created some good will and pressure to convert the reservations. Right now, there is no ‘first-mover‘ advantage. And at this time the news from the EU is ‘mixed’ on deliveries and reliability. Even if the pricing for reservation holders was just half way to the full price how (5K off), that would have been a real sign..

It ain't over yet.

5+ weeks until the early window closes. Nothing saying there won't be a price increase announcement (or hint) as a nudge. Or maybe much later this year; early buyers then get their "reward".