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Americas The big May 17 Announcement / Pricing / Discussion thread.

Krabby

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I have something that might be helpful to folks and it's exactly what Stu described (Hope your head is OK Stu!! You only have one so stop using it to test the structure of your Disco's doors, ok? They are strong enough!) and that's it's comparison with other vehicles.

Here's the assumptions on my analysis:

1) I built the cars from regional websites by "pretending" I was a customer in the United States, Canada, the U.K., Australia, and South Africa. My build was based on the "tool to do a job" analogy, which means in every case I had to add a few things over the base, but my goal was to add the minimum options necessary to each vehicle in each market to get them suitable for a basic scenario/use case, or as close as I could get to it. I defined that use case as follows: I want an off road vehicle that allows me to tow, has front and rear lockers (or the equivalent in the case of the LR), and has the ability to pop off a part of the roof to stand and take pictures. My reason for having that last one in this comparison is that it is the default state for one of the comparators (Jeep), so I might as well try to get as close to apples to apples. I did not add any other options unless I had no choice. All vehicles are petrol with automatic transmissions - note that the jeep can be had for less with a manual, which is actually preferable for some, but again apples to apples. I should add though, that some vehicles come with a LOT more stuff in the "base" price -- the Land Rover interior has premium audio and finishes by default, for instance, whereas those are options on the other marques.

2) The analysis isn't perfect. Not all packages are the same around the world; for instance I was unable to get a price from the Australian website for a Defender, so I had to guesstimate how much the options I added (tow package and locker systems) would cost from third party data, so I'm probably a bit off there. Another example is that the Jeep in both Canada and the USA come with a soft top, so I added the hard top; this appears to be default in the UK and Australia. In Canada, you cannot just get the tow package, it comes with the high load aux switches, whereas in the USA you can do the tow package without the aux switches. So, it's not perfect because of these regional configurator differences, but it's not a terrible "dead reckoning".

3) Finally, the actual dollar price is pretty irrelevant; the vehicle is not priced based on exchange rates but instead on what the local market will bear. To that end, all of the numbers are expressed in the local currency. With that thought, we needed a benchmark, so I picked the Big Mac from McDonalds, also expressed in local currency. This can be thought of as your opportunity cost -- "How many Big Macs could I get if instead of buying (model) of vehicle, I went to McDonalds?".

I think that covers most of the context, here are the numbers:

Prices of Various Vehicles Expressed in Local Currency

VehicleUSACanadaUKAustraliaSouth Africa
Wrangler$56,630$65,275£62,520$98,534R1,099,900
Gladiator$55,075$67,225£N/A$94,212R1,329,900
Defender$67,875$82,730£70,925$87,830R1,816,600
Grenadier$77,300$101,084£61,970$104,385R1,584,635
Big Mac$5.78$6.70£3.81$6.48R47.24



How Many Big Macs Can I Buy For The Price Of That Car?

VehicleUSACanadaUKAustraliaSouth Africa
Wrangler9,797.69,742.516,409.515,205.923,283.2
Gladiator9,528.510,033.6N/A14,538.928,152.0
Defender11,743.112,347.818,615.513,554.038,454.7
Grenadier13,373.715,087.216,265.115,108.833,544.3

So what does the analysis above show? Well, the first blush is that my reaction to the Canadian pricing was not unfair -- the biggest affordability jump from the competition is in Canada. I could get 2,739.4 Big Macs for the money I would save buying the Defender instead of the Grenadier. For my American friends, you would be able to get only 1,630.6 Big Macs for the money you'd save buying the Defender instead of the Gren. In the UK, the Defender would actually mean you could get 2,350 Big Macs if you purchased the Gren instead of the Defender. Australians can get 1554.8 Big Macs if they "skimp" and buy the Defender instead of the Gren. South Africans -- apart from getting stupid good deals on Big Macs -- would be able to buy 4,910 Big Macs if they buy the Gren instead of the Defender.

So, it seems like in some places, the Gren is the value option. In other places, like the ones whose flag is adorned with a Maple Leaf, it's exorbitantly more expensive than the competition. It also shows that dollar for dollar, the Gren is priced similarly in the USA and Australia; less than 100 Big Macs isn't a lot on a purchase of this size. In Europe and South Africa, the Gren is a relative steal of a deal.

Personally, if I were in America, I'd still be in - the value is there. But in Canada, it is not. Each of these vehicles represents some sort of compromise on the Gren, but as I've said earlier in this thread, I can compromise on a lot for 2739 Big Macs. That's 3 years worth of dinners' difference between what a Canadian pays for the Gren as compared to what an American pays for the Gren, versus the other options.

This was a quick comparison, and I could easily have made mistakes on the numbers and I'm totally open to folks correcting any of the above based on their own analysis; good science needs repeatability so if others are willing to do a similar experiment and post the results, that would be awesome.
Sigh - your post forced me to get a Big Mac for lunch, and now my stomach hurts (because I ate two 😬).

But, while I ate, I watched this video. The voice over is a bit cheesy, but its an interesting watch - especially when considering the tires some of the trucks are wearing.
 

LC0013

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As to why we Americans thought it would be cheaper, well, having coveted Defenders all our lives, and knowing they sold for a fraction in England compared to what we pay for an NAS or 25yo import, we were really excited to hear Ineos planned on bringing them here, and the impetus was because the defender turned into an upscale mall cruiser instead of a farm implement. We've got plenty of those already. I think the quote from Radcliff about the Defender was "overpriced, donkeyball sucker". Or something along those lines...

As it turns out The IG is 13% more expensive than the upscale Eguus scrote piddler and It's NOT a farm implement in any trim level. It's an image, like his Belstaf jacket. It looks like something to field, it really isn't, but you will stand out if actually wear it outside of Heffs Grotto. I guess It juuuuuust misses the mark on both parts of the dream.


My brother had at least 3 Land Rovers of which 2 were Defenders. Never could understand why he purchased such a needed vehicle as it needed to be repaired more than quite a few times in his years of ownership. So much so that when he offered to sell me his Defender 90, at a very decent price, it was a quick and easy decline. Having been used to owning Land Cruisers it seemed like a huge step backwards to own any Land Rover product.

I like the entire concept of the Grenadier and, am pretty certain, it would have been a more scaled down vehicle had, in our case, Uncle Sam not got involved with all of those stupid regulations.

Anyway, my build got pared down to $83,695 which is more than expected but understandable from their perspective. Do I wish it was less, sure. Do I wish it had less electronics and a 4 speed and diesel engine, sure. But I do like the engine, transmission, styling, features and the vehicles capabilities. Very comparable rig to my 2000 LC with respect to engine performance and size but the Grenadier may be built tougher. I believe the new LC expected to hit the US in a few years will not be as robustly constructed as the 300 Series LC and older.
 

ChasingOurTrunks

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The idea is not bad, but e.g. in UK a Big Mac is comparably cheap.

The price for an ounce of Gold seems more relevant to me.

Yes, but you cannot buy an ounce of gold on most streets in most cities; everyone can go out and buy a Big Mac and because it includes a wide swath of the economy -- marketing, food production, labour costs -- it's a good indicator of relative affordability in a given jurisdiction.

Plus, it's an immediately relatable thing for the entire world, from paupers to princes.
 

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My build plan/ considerations for each of these vehicles including the Gren would be

- Metal F&R bumpers and sliders for tighter angles and better bump protection

I thought the NA market was getting standard steel font/rear bumpers?
 
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It is selling well in Australia, as opposed to any Jeep product.
Jeep sold less than 8,000 vehicles in Australia last year across all models.
The Grand Cherokee is the best seller at under 2,000 in a year
The Wrangler sold about 1,100
Gladiator under 1,000 when the best selling vehicles in Australia are dual cab utes/pickups.
Most of the Jeeps are also purchased as "Lifestyle" vehicles not serious offroading
Yes they are very capable of it, but we have to drive thousands of kilometres on rough roads and they just fall apart.
They also have such a low load rating that they are useless for our use cases.
View: https://youtu.be/txH2tYa54AE

View: https://youtu.be/wAqm2hx-pRg




I guarantee this guy wheels harder than anyone on this entire forum. He has driven Jeeps all across the whole of Africa and through all of Australia's toughest trails with zero issues.
 
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HAHA Yeah..after writing the 'odyssey' in the end that was it..

I just started writing as a means of documenting my thoughts..and of course ultimately heart vs. head
It was a window into the human male manchild mind and good read, though. :)
 
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I just posted this math over on Expo, but here's where some of the sticker shock is coming from for me as a Canadian:

Let's have some fun with math, because I'm in the mood. I'll use my "Ideal Spec" price which resulted in a price of $136k and I'll show my work and sources wherever I can, and since most people finance big purchases, I will also assume that this is being financed fully.

Financing the whole thing over 6 years (a fairly common auto loan length), at today's interest rates (say 7%) means that you'd be paying $2,318 dollars per month for 6 years. That means annually, you'd be paying about $27,816.

Generally, personal finance experts suggest you shouldn't spend more than 20% of your before tax income on your car, gas, and insurance. Let's take the low-end insurance estimate of $1300/year, and take a fairly conservative 10,000 kms of driving which is between 5k to 10k below average, at 16 liters/100 kms (the Gren's stated mileage) and assuming an extremely "cheap" $0.80 cents per liter (that's a full dollar less than I pay in BC) means you're spending another $1280 per year on gas, and let's budget another $1400 for maintenence.

$27,816 - Payments
$1280 - Gas
$1300 - Insurance
$1400 - Maintenence

= $31,796 CDN per year to own the Grenadier.

Using that 20% before-tax income, a person has to be earning $158,980 per year in Canada to afford the Grenadier "responsibly" according to the experts. This totally ignores the cost of living crisis currently underway, by the way; more frugal and conservative advice suggests you should not spend more than 10% of your before tax income on the above, meaning you'd want to be earning $317,960.00

This isn't just a car "For the 1%" as the Occupy Wall Streeters say -- in Canada, "the 1%" starts at $234k per year. That means that to afford the Grenadier, you need to be in some smaller subset of the top 1% of earners in the country, and you need to out-earn those on the threshold of the 1% by nearly $100k. And remember -- that's just to afford to finance the car. Not buy it outright -- you need to be in the top percent of the top percent just to be able to service a loan for the vehicle.

So yeah...Ineos, you built a car that, in Canada at least, only the mega-wealthy can afford to even get a loan on. I'd really love folks to check my math -- these are very conservative numbers that should, if anything, dramatically under-reflect the reality, and I'm a bit gobsmacked by the idea that you'd need to be earning north of $300k to "responsibly" finance the purchase of this vehicle.
Yeah. No. Cash buyers.
 
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I like the entire concept of the Grenadier and, am pretty certain, it would have been a more scaled down vehicle had, in our case, Uncle Sam not got involved with all of those stupid regulations.
What USA only reg do you think affected the price?
 

ADVAW8S

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Like many of you, I have been wincing at the cost of configuring a Grenadier to my liking. To try to gain a little perspective, I looked over the MSRP cost ($57,340) plus a few selected accessories ($1,209.50) for the last new vehicle I ended up purchasing, which was a top of the line 2017 Acura MDX AWD (purchased in December 2016). The MSRP plus accessories came to a total of $58,549.50 (not including tax, tags, title). And I know this is NOT an apples to apples comparison, but I still said to myself, "Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. Much more reasonable. Wish I could get the Grenadier for somewhere in that range." But then I ran that number through the DOL's CPI Inflation calculator:

$58,549.50 in December 2016 = $73,568.34 in April 2023

I know it's mainly just psychological, but this gave me a better perspective on the pricing of the Grenadier, and it will certainly be part of my briefing to the Appropriations Committee, particularly since I purchased the MDX for her:

"See, the Grenadier base model actually starts less than what the MSRP for your Acura would be in today's dollars. And the MSRP on a 2023 top of the line MDX is even higher at $73,200. We, of course, need more add-ons and accessories for the Grenadier since it will be primarily for off-road use. So, really, when you look at it correctly, $82,485 today for a mildly optioned Trialmaster is really only $65,645.84 if we had had the opportunity to buy it when we bought your car. So, it's really only a hair over $7,000 more than we paid for your car. I think that's doable, don't you?"

Wish me luck.
So in your mind a Honda Civic is kitted out the same as a Porsche GT2 RS. Clearly there is hardly any comparison on almost any metric other than they both have 4 wheels and can get you from point A to B. Now comparing a civic to a Prius may have some validity in the daily commuter car segment. Porsches are high performance sports cars and the one you mention is essentially a track race car or a collector car for the ultra rich. Not sure what your point is. When comparing a Grenadier to something we have to find cars that are alike in purpose and perfomance off road. G Wagons, Defender 110 and in a lower cost market Jeeps and Broncos are where the grenadier should excel. Numerous models of Toyota are also stellar and have proven reliability.
The point is for people complaining about price to do a thought experiment. We are quick to judge things without going deeper than the surface. We make assumptions that all things are equal and because of that, prices should be similar but at same time are brians are not equipped to weigh the intangibles. Honda and Porsche will get you from point A to point B. But people are willing to pay more for something because they find added benefit. When you look at IG, I see a 78k that is built to be abused but still provide a minimal cost. You spread the cost of ownership over 10 years and things get a lot cheaper.
 

MileHigh

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Has anyone found any price ‘hack’ in pricing the Trialmaster or Other one that gives a price break over the standard and adding bits?

I don’t need the air snorkel, and I don’t want Aluminum rims, so it would have to be a goof bundle to make either a savings.
 

jeffmattSD

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Like many of you, I have been wincing at the cost of configuring a Grenadier to my liking. To try to gain a little perspective, I looked over the MSRP cost ($57,340) plus a few selected accessories ($1,209.50) for the last new vehicle I ended up purchasing, which was a top of the line 2017 Acura MDX AWD (purchased in December 2016). The MSRP plus accessories came to a total of $58,549.50 (not including tax, tags, title). And I know this is NOT an apples to apples comparison, but I still said to myself, "Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. Much more reasonable. Wish I could get the Grenadier for somewhere in that range." But then I ran that number through the DOL's CPI Inflation calculator:

$58,549.50 in December 2016 = $73,568.34 in April 2023

I know it's mainly just psychological, but this gave me a better perspective on the pricing of the Grenadier, and it will certainly be part of my briefing to the Appropriations Committee, particularly since I purchased the MDX for her:

"See, the Grenadier base model actually starts less than what the MSRP for your Acura would be in today's dollars. And the MSRP on a 2023 top of the line MDX is even higher at $73,200. We, of course, need more add-ons and accessories for the Grenadier since it will be primarily for off-road use. So, really, when you look at it correctly, $82,485 today for a mildly optioned Trialmaster is really only $65,645.84 if we had had the opportunity to buy it when we bought your car. So, it's really only a hair over $7,000 more than we paid for your car. I think that's doable, don't you?"

Wish me luck.
This is good approach. We all usually think back to the last car we purchased but forget current inflation. In my case my build is $87k and the last car that i purchased was an Audi Q7. I looked at my local dealer's inventory and the Q7 with comparable options to what I bought was listed for $84k. Now I just have to figure out how to get IG to give a 20% discount off of the MSRP like I got when I purchased my Audi. This is a little comforting.
 
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He's really wealthy. Part of being really wealthy is knowing when to cut projects and run. Pride does not bring wealth.
Yeah. But this is a very personal project for Sir Jim. No way he is going to drop it. There is a big committment there in the factory and supplier network, even without Jim's ego. At the worst, he will eat the losses until the wrinkles are worked out and them bump the price.....
 

ChasingOurTrunks

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Yeah. No. Cash buyers.
Exactly my point - the numbers I used would reflect a similar process that a bank would use for financing in most places, and those kinds of numbers are already in the area of the mega rich for financing alone - financing exists as a means of making things accessible/affordable for more buyers, but in this case, even with financing, it's only accessible to those who are mega wealthy.

I don't know of too many people who can afford to spend $136,000 cash on anything, let alone a car. The only ones I know who can tend to travel on private jets way more often than I ever will, and they are in that "mega rich" category. My meaning is, it's a very small number of folks who can afford this rig in Canada, and of those who can afford it, those who will use it how it's designed are scarce (and instead will be buying them to be 'seen' in them outside of the $10,000.00 per bottle nightclubs).

I actually think my American friends aren't as hard done by as it seems -- it's more expensive than we wanted/were promised in the USA, but I dare say not unreasonably so when compared to other vehicles that can do the same kinds of things. The closest "real" competition in my opinion from an engineering standpoint is actually the LC300, but I left that out of my analysis for a reason -- we haven't been able to buy new Land Cruisers in Canada in a dog's age. I think the same may be true now in the USA, but at least you have LC200s running around - we don't even have those up here.

In the USA, the Gren is pretty competitive with the LC too -- @Paachi your assessment is superb in your two posts and I agree with every word -- but in Canada, it's both priced proportionally too high to the competition, and the competition is less because we don't get certain vehicles up here in the frozen north.
 

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Part 2 of my response because I seemed to have found the forum limit on charater count of a post :D


Final considerations:

- When you compare all the above vehicles on an at par scale, the Grenadier is actually not that expensive. If you think about inflation over the past couple of years, the rising prices will be the new normal

- I am a big believer in a pop-up camper setup or sleeping in the vehicle. I hate roof racks and RTTs due the physics of weight and wind resistance. With that in mind, the Grenadier is probably going to be only only 2-3 vehicles in my consideration set which can be converted into a live in camper. There others being my current G-Wagon and the Jeep (LC200 if you consider a crazy Maltec build..but then you are talking different degree of $$s). I believe Alucab is working on a pop-up camper for the Gren. While their designs are heavy, I do believe it will add significant value and capability to the vehicle

- The cost and value of the add-ons is a bit all over the place. If its the price including installation, then its perfectly reasonable. Ex: A winch for $4K installed is fine..but for winch only and then paying dealers for install is rip off. Same thing with sliders, tail gate table etc. Secondly, the price for mechanical only items like Safari windows ($2.1K), heated seats ($500), Saddle leather ($800) is crazy high!

- The fuel economy and range is by far my biggest irritation. In todays day and age 14 mpg from a turbo charged and purportedly detuned engine with 91 octane is bull shit. The 23.5 gal tank is also barely good. Ineos better think about solving this if they want my $$s

- My second biggest gripe is I am not liking what I am hearing about the dealer model for the early hand raisers. As an early hand raiser I expected two things
  1. Get preferential pricing, which we are getting. I’m sure the prices will go. Up by 10% or more from Ineos and another 10-20% in the form of dealer markups once early hand raiser orders are filled. Then a $90K spec will be a $120K car. What will be interesting to see if that sways any of the G-Wagon buyers. But it will squarely put Ineos out of the consideration set of the Jeep and 4runner buyer
  2. Not deal with pesky dealer mark ups and shenanigans. Again, Ineos, please fix this if you want my $$. I won’t pay the dealer a cent above MSRP and taxes

Thank you if you persisted this far into my ramblings.

Like @Stu_Barnes said, this is now a heart over head decision. I love the Grenadier and have cheered for it from the day they announced their intention, I have spoken to their NA CEO Greg in person at length and by and large I am not surprised by some of the landing decisions. But if I do decide to buy it, it will be because of my heart not head
Thank you for the well thoughtout post.
 

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View: https://youtu.be/wAqm2hx-pRg




I guarantee this guy wheels harder than anyone on this entire forum. He has driven Jeeps all across the whole of Africa and through all of Australia's toughest tracks with zero issues.

Not a twenty year old one. I am a Jeep fan to some degree but used hard they don't last long.

The Grenadier is advertised as as a long term vehicle. The components are appear to be robust enough to not need constant replacement or upgrading. Time will certainly tell but I'm not even considering a Jeep if I pass on the IG.
 
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Yes, but you cannot buy an ounce of gold on most streets in most cities; everyone can go out and buy a Big Mac and because it includes a wide swath of the economy -- marketing, food production, labour costs -- it's a good indicator of relative affordability in a given jurisdiction.

Plus, it's an immediately relatable thing for the entire world, from paupers to princes.
The Big Mac has een used for years by "The Economist" magazine ( best international news/financial magazine in the world) as a comparitor for a country's economic status. So your use is not out of left field!
 

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darth-vader-choke.gif
 

IG_in_AZ

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Are you Royalist? From the LR forum. People buy things because of a feeling. I feel that no matter where I am, I can get the IG fixed versus LR. LR breaks in middle of America, you need to find a LR tech. The IG breaks I need to find a shop that has internet to download the manual. Don't worry I will have the OBD scanner.
Hopefully, I'll have the manual on my phone.
 
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