Americas The big May 17 Announcement / Pricing / Discussion thread.

[ADVAW8S]

I understand Ineos is using top manufacturers (parts) but people are talking like this makes up for the lack of historical data on reliability or lack of one. This vehicles hasn't really been consumer tested in volume and there are already known issues, vibrations, electronics (this one I find particularly funny since they talk about using 50% less), etc. Of course these are all things first adopters accept but lets not make Ineos out as the pinnacle of off road perfection, at least not yet.

Like many, the price was higher than expected and there are many unknowns concerning the US dealer market and purchase process. I'm still a definite maybe on purchasing one.

Let me share something, LR who has making cars for 1948. A decent amount of time to get things right. Launched the New Defender, here are some of the issues experienced in year one. A pillar cover becoming undone, the rear window ungluing from the c pillar, loss of coolant tied to the aux radiators(BTW LR indicated to everyone that it is normal but it took one person to strip the front end to show LR that it is a issue with aux radiator is leaking because part supplier did it wrong) major computer glitches causing you to lose car emergency functions, wrong treatment to seat cover causing staining, battery drain forcing people to get system reflashed and new battery, leaking from sunroof, windshield crack issue tied to using a thinner glass to save money. A blown hybrid system requiring new parts. These are the issues my friends have faced with the new defender. I am lucky one, my 2020 only has had two of the issues. Let me turn to Ford, first car manufacture, I would say they should understand on gow to get it right. Bronco, engine blows up and they need to replace it. Trim pieces breaking.
I understand your point about unproven reliability but I also understand that many of the car manufactures that have been producing cars and trucks have delivered bad products. I trust IG will provide a better long term experience.

 

[renli3d]

I was hoping for a really basic, low cost but well built vehicle. I enjoy modding my vehicles and the ability to add things as funds allow keeps me in the game vs having to come up with a huge figure to buy a vehicle with everything included, although in this case a barebones grenadier is still really expensive. This vehicle is really for business owners who can write off the vehicle or the G-Wagon crowd who can find value in a vehicle being cheaper than a G wagon

 

[ADVAW8S]

Yup $30k more than a Jeep Gladiator I'm out. The base Grenadier is really $30k more than the Gladiator Sport and the Trialmaster and Fieldmaster are $30k more than the Rubicon. Unlike most I actually want to push my vehicle off road on tough trails. I'm glad the next generation of Gladiator and Wranglers coming out soon will finally have side curtain airbags for the front and rear seats because that was the only thing stopping me from getting one before. I don't think this vehicle is going to sell well in America or Australia at all and will probably be a complete flop when we have so many other options for way more affordable prices. Maybe some rich retired people will buy this vehicle for the looks but probably around 0.02% of them will ever take the vehicle off-roading on anything more than a grass field or dirt road.

@TradChap Let me ask you simple question. Which would you buy Honda Civic or a Porsche GT2 RS Both are kitted out the same in terms of top specs provided by each manufacture. And then please share why

 

[jeffmattSD]

After reading all of this I’m in the same boat generally. I love this car and have been following since day 1, BUT, this pricing is just not in line with what is being provided IMHO. I was thinking a loaded Jeep JL, or a loaded Bronco Badlands, which totals about $70k, then add $5k for low volume euro = $75k. Unfortunately at $85k comparable is $10k over that, or a $15k premium for this (plus tax). Not worth it.

Someone said that this is a bespoke small batch 4x4 that cannot be compared to a Jeep or Bronco, BS. This is exactly what it should be compared to. It should not be compared to a G-wagon or maybe even a defender, it has none of the fit or finish of those vehicles, sorry but it’s a rudimentary tractor at best (but in the best possible way).

It’s just too much $$ for this vehicle as an unproven item and manufacturer. That being said, I’m debating still going ahead to see what happens with the new 4-Runner, the new possibility of a USA Landcruiser (?), or the whole car market in general. Things may stay the same (tap-out), or things may het weird. $450 is sort of minimal against a $90k vehicle, or the crazy dealer markups lately.

All in all, kinda lame for Ineos to treat its most devoted fans with this. If it all comes down like a house of cards, this will be a big reason.

I agree with you 100%. I am going to stay in until I have to go hard on more money to see what comes of the new 4runner, a USA Landcruiser, or some other vehicle that is loosely comparabel to the IG. It will be intersting to see what happens. My estimate of off-road use would have only been 10%. I have to drive a long ways to get away from the city in southern California. My current build based off of the Fieldmaster comes out to $87k.

Good luck to all. It is always tough to purchase a vehicle like this using your head instead of your heart. Hell, we still have not even driven the car on the road yet.

 

[40man]

He's really wealthy. Part of being really wealthy is knowing when to cut projects and run. Pride does not bring wealth.

I know relatively little about Sir Jimmy, but I have a lot of very rich clients including a few billionaires. It is surprising how many, as smart as they are, are prideful with many decisions.

I recently dealt with an offer from one of my clients to buy out a failing relatively small side business of custom vehicle servicing and builds owned by a very wealth car dealer (worth at least a billion). We made a fair offer, but the owner, being prideful wanted basically 50% more than the assets were worth, and our offer was very generous (above wholesale for inventory).

The guy refused our offer, went into bankruptcy within two weeks and my client bought all of his assets for pennies on the dollar. I've seen many other mind numbing decisions from some of these guys. Like a PE firm, these guys tend to have so many irons in the fire that the few home runs make up for the ones they let pride cause losses.

Granted this was a small company (offer was about $8MM as I recall), but a smart owner would taken the offer.

 

[40man]

I'm less concerned about the price as I am with the lack of information on service and support. They told me they will have options if I need warranty service and am far away from a dealer, but would not give me any idea on what that would be. They can't tell me what dealer addons/markups will be, or even who the dealers are yet they want me to order now (30 day window) and basically put the risk on me and not them.

A new car is only as good as the manufacturer standing behind it. They may do a great job, but they aren't communicating it that way.

When I respectfully made those concerns known to Ineos (spoke with Michael via Live Chat), he basically told me I should cancel my preorder and wait until things are established before making my order. A bit tone deaf to speak to an early deposit enthusiast that way that just has some basic concerns on who dealers are, and how the warranty service will be taken care of.

So if I back out, that will be why. With the small # they can sell in the U.S., I think pricing and demand will stay high. Also with the small number, I think it will be years and years (if ever) before they have a reliable service network.

 

[DaveB]

Yup $30k more than a Jeep Gladiator I'm out. The base Grenadier is really $30k more than the Gladiator Sport and the Trialmaster and Fieldmaster are $30k more than the Rubicon. Unlike most I actually want to push my vehicle off road on tough trails. I'm glad the next generation of Gladiator and Wranglers coming out soon will finally have side curtain airbags for the front and rear seats because that was the only thing stopping me from getting one before. I don't think this vehicle is going to sell well in America or Australia at all and will probably be a complete flop when we have so many other options for way more affordable prices. Maybe some rich retired people will buy this vehicle for the looks but probably around 0.02% of them will ever take the vehicle off-roading on anything more than a grass field or dirt road.

It is selling well in Australia, as opposed to any Jeep product.
Jeep sold less than 8,000 vehicles in Australia last year across all models.
The Grand Cherokee is the best seller at under 2,000 in a year
The Wrangler sold about 1,100
Gladiator under 1,000 when the best selling vehicles in Australia are dual cab utes/pickups.
Most of the Jeeps are also purchased as "Lifestyle" vehicles not serious offroading
Yes they are very capable of it, but we have to drive thousands of kilometres on rough roads and they just fall apart.
They also have such a low load rating that they are useless for our use cases.

 

[Zimm]

Part 2 of my response because I seemed to have found the forum limit on charater count of a post


But if I do decide to buy it, it will be because of my heart not head

You could have saved 2 hours of typing a multi chapter rationalization, and just went to that last part!

 

[nobody_asked]

Let me share something, LR who has making cars for 1948. A decent amount of time to get things right. Launched the New Defender, here are some of the issues experienced in year one. A pillar cover becoming undone, the rear window ungluing from the c pillar, loss of coolant tied to the aux radiators(BTW LR indicated to everyone that it is normal but it took one person to strip the front end to show LR that it is a issue with aux radiator is leaking because part supplier did it wrong) major computer glitches causing you to lose car emergency functions, wrong treatment to seat cover causing staining, battery drain forcing people to get system reflashed and new battery, leaking from sunroof, windshield crack issue tied to using a thinner glass to save money. A blown hybrid system requiring new parts. These are the issues my friends have faced with the new defender. I am lucky one, my 2020 only has had two of the issues. Let me turn to Ford, first car manufacture, I would say they should understand on gow to get it right. Bronco, engine blows up and they need to replace it. Trim pieces breaking.
I understand your point about unproven reliability but I also understand that many of the car manufactures that have been producing cars and trucks have delivered bad products. I trust IG will provide a better long term experience.

You say, "I trust IG will provide a better long term experience." because you want to believe that, hell, we all want too. I think they made a lot of great decisions in the partners they have chosen but that doesn't make them immune to issues, as we are seeing right now. Are these short or longterm, only time will tell. This, along with concerns about the price (I understand the inflationary impact), customer support, dealers, etc are all factors people have to come to terms with as an early adopter in making their decision. There is no right or wrong answer for everyone, it's an individual choice as @Stu_Barnes said between your head and heart.... and perhaps your wallet, spouse and dog (cats don't get a vote)

Like you, my 2020 Defender didn't have many issues, mainly just some minor fit issues, luckily nothing mechanical and I was able to sell it for more than I paid. That doesn't mean I would buy another one over the IG. I'm more curious about the next generation Toyota 4Runner. A company with a long history of reliability, but not without issues themselves, for a lot less money might just be worth the wait.

None of us can order our IG yet (in the States) so these forums are fun and informative.

Heart says: Yes
Head says: No
Dog says: Treat

 

[A1B2C3D4]

If dealers play games - and I cannot find an honest one who will sell me the truck for list without tacking on BS crap I can't avoid - I'm out for certain. If I cannot put faith in the people/dealership I will have to deal with for the life of my vehicle (at launch there will be very few dealers to choose from - 20ish in the total country, whereas there are more than 30 Toyota dealers in NJ alone), I won't go ahead. I don't need to be wined and dined or offered cappuccino when I'm there, but I do need to be looked in the eye while shaking hands with honest people whose word has value.

This whole thing seems like a bait and switch on the price. We still don't even know the price since dealers can add $5k or $10k to install a few items.

 

[jessejames]

Like many of you, I have been wincing at the cost of configuring a Grenadier to my liking. To try to gain a little perspective, I looked over the MSRP cost ($57,340) plus a few selected accessories ($1,209.50) for the last new vehicle I ended up purchasing, which was a top of the line 2017 Acura MDX AWD (purchased in December 2016). The MSRP plus accessories came to a total of $58,549.50 (not including tax, tags, title). And I know this is NOT an apples to apples comparison, but I still said to myself, "Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. Much more reasonable. Wish I could get the Grenadier for somewhere in that range." But then I ran that number through the DOL's CPI Inflation calculator:

$58,549.50 in December 2016 = $73,568.34 in April 2023

I know it's mainly just psychological, but this gave me a better perspective on the pricing of the Grenadier, and it will certainly be part of my briefing to the Appropriations Committee, particularly since I purchased the MDX for her:

"See, the Grenadier base model actually starts less than what the MSRP for your Acura would be in today's dollars. And the MSRP on a 2023 top of the line MDX is even higher at $73,200. We, of course, need more add-ons and accessories for the Grenadier since it will be primarily for off-road use. So, really, when you look at it correctly, $82,485 today for a mildly optioned Trialmaster is really only $65,645.84 if we had had the opportunity to buy it when we bought your car. So, it's really only a hair over $7,000 more than we paid for your car. I think that's doable, don't you?"

Wish me luck.

I like your way of thinking. I hope you don't mind if I borrow some of that.

 

[Paachi]

You could have saved 2 hours of typing a multi chapter rationalization, and just went to that last part!

HAHA Yeah..after writing the 'odyssey' in the end that was it..

I just started writing as a means of documenting my thoughts..and of course ultimately heart vs. head

 

[Paachi]

You say, "I trust IG will provide a better long term experience." because you want to believe that, hell, we all want too. I think they made a lot of great decisions in the partners they have chosen but that doesn't make them immune to issues, as we are seeing right now. Are these short or longterm, only time will tell. This, along with concerns about the price (I understand the inflationary impact), customer support, dealers, etc are all factors people have to come to terms with as an early adopter in making their decision. There is no right or wrong answer for everyone, it's an individual choice as @Stu_Barnes said between your head and heart.... and perhaps your wallet, spouse and dog (cats don't get a vote)

Like you, my 2020 Defender didn't have many issues, mainly just some minor fit issues, luckily nothing mechanical and I was able to sell it for more than I paid. That doesn't mean I would buy another one over the IG. I'm more curious about the next generation Toyota 4Runner. A company with a long history of reliability, but not without issues themselves, for a lot less money might just be worth the wait.

None of us can order our IG yet (in the States) so these forums are fun and informative.

Heart says: Yes
Head says: No
Dog says: Treat

Doggos are da best!!

 

[Biohazard]

Post in thread 'What did you do with your Grenadier today?'
https://www.theineosforum.com/threa...your-grenadier-today.12411127/post-1333178641

This. I jumped from Jeep to Toyota/Lexus because of these electronic gremlins that spoiled an otherwise stellar experience.

Bowing out. Been nice getting to know you gents. Real outstanding group of fellows, all of you high class, experienced, fun people.

 

[ADVAW8S]

You say, "I trust IG will provide a better long term experience." because you want to believe that, hell, we all want too. I think they made a lot of great decisions in the partners they have chosen but that doesn't make them immune to issues, as we are seeing right now. Are these short or longterm, only time will tell. This, along with concerns about the price (I understand the inflationary impact), customer support, dealers, etc are all factors people have to come to terms with as an early adopter in making their decision. There is no right or wrong answer for everyone, it's an individual choice as @Stu_Barnes said between your head and heart.... and perhaps your wallet, spouse and dog (cats don't get a vote)

Like you, my 2020 Defender didn't have many issues, mainly just some minor fit issues, luckily nothing mechanical and I was able to sell it for more than I paid. That doesn't mean I would buy another one over the IG. I'm more curious about the next generation Toyota 4Runner. A company with a long history of reliability, but not without issues themselves, for a lot less money might just be worth the wait.

None of us can order our IG yet (in the States) so these forums are fun and informative.

Heart says: Yes
Head says: No
Dog says: Treat

Are you Royalist? From the LR forum. People buy things because of a feeling. I feel that no matter where I am, I can get the IG fixed versus LR. LR breaks in middle of America, you need to find a LR tech. The IG breaks I need to find a shop that has internet to download the manual. Don't worry I will have the OBD scanner.

 

[Zimm]

As to why we Americans thought it would be cheaper, well, having coveted Defenders all our lives, and knowing they sold for a fraction in England compared to what we pay for an NAS or 25yo import, we were really excited to hear Ineos planned on bringing them here, and the impetus was because the defender turned into an upscale mall cruiser instead of a farm implement. We've got plenty of those already. I think the quote from Radcliff about the Defender was "overpriced, donkeyball sucker". Or something along those lines...

As it turns out The IG is 13% more expensive than the upscale Eguus scrote piddler and It's NOT a farm implement in any trim level. It's an image, like his Belstaf jacket. It looks like something to field, it really isn't, but you will stand out if actually wear it outside of Heffs Grotto. I guess It juuuuuust misses the mark on both parts of the dream.

 

[nobody_asked]

Are you Royalist? From the LR forum. People buy things because of a feeling. I feel that no matter where I am, I can get the IG fixed versus LR. LR breaks in middle of America, you need to find a LR tech. The IG breaks I need to find a shop that has internet to download the manual. Don't worry I will have the OBD scanner.

No, I am not.

 

[Aurans]

Like many of you, I have been wincing at the cost of configuring a Grenadier to my liking. To try to gain a little perspective, I looked over the MSRP cost ($57,340) plus a few selected accessories ($1,209.50) for the last new vehicle I ended up purchasing, which was a top of the line 2017 Acura MDX AWD (purchased in December 2016). The MSRP plus accessories came to a total of $58,549.50 (not including tax, tags, title). And I know this is NOT an apples to apples comparison, but I still said to myself, "Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. Much more reasonable. Wish I could get the Grenadier for somewhere in that range." But then I ran that number through the DOL's CPI Inflation calculator: $58,549.50 in December 2016 = $73,568.34 in April 2023

I know it's mainly just psychological, but this gave me a better perspective on the pricing of the Grenadier, and it will certainly be part of my briefing to the Appropriations Committee, particularly since I purchased the MDX for her:

"See, the Grenadier base model actually starts less than what the MSRP for your Acura would be in today's dollars. And the MSRP on a 2023 top of the line MDX is even higher at $73,200. We, of course, need more add-ons and accessories for the Grenadier since it will be primarily for off-road use. So, really, when you look at it correctly, $82,485 today for a mildly optioned Trialmaster is really only $65,645.84 if we had had the opportunity to buy it when we bought your car. So, it's really only a hair over $7,000 more than we paid for your car. I think that's doable, don't you?"

Wish me luck.

Using CPI doesn’t really apply here. The base MSRP of an 2023 MDX AWD starts at $51,750. Truck, SUV, and EV buyers has been getting gouged, but that’s changing as dealers can’t move inventory. The Grenadier doesn’t come out until end of year, early 2024. Coming out of Covid, there were shortages but people had lots of reserve cash and a FOMO mentality. Cars sellers, especially trucks, SUVs, and EVs, took horrible advantage of that. Now, we’re having huge layoffs in key sectors and are going into a very uncomfortable 2024 election season. People won’t be spending fool’s money anymore. There are 82 MDXs for sale near me. I certainly wouldn’t pay $75k plus for one.

 

[MarksGrenadier]

@TradChap Let me ask you simple question. Which would you buy Honda Civic or a Porsche GT2 RS Both are kitted out the same in terms of top specs provided by each manufacture. And then please share why

So in your mind a Honda Civic is kitted out the same as a Porsche GT2 RS. Clearly there is hardly any comparison on almost any metric other than they both have 4 wheels and can get you from point A to B. Now comparing a civic to a Prius may have some validity in the daily commuter car segment. Porsches are high performance sports cars and the one you mention is essentially a track race car or a collector car for the ultra rich. Not sure what your point is. When comparing a Grenadier to something we have to find cars that are alike in purpose and perfomance off road. G Wagons, Defender 110 and in a lower cost market Jeeps and Broncos are where the grenadier should excel. Numerous models of Toyota are also stellar and have proven reliability.

 

[255/85]

I want to be at around 75 before the tax man cometh. I'm around 77.

I am on the fence regarding the Grenadier so not much of a contributor here. I am disappointed but not completely surprised by the prices. I had figured a 10% bump from the sub $60K USD entry price seen in the UK/EU which would have been $65K-ish. But there's another 10% bump to get to the $71.5K starting point. I'm naive when it comes to the details of international trade but 20% is a bitch. Ratcliffe didn't get rich by doing anybody any favors so why would he start now?

Current build would be at $77K with fancy paint because the Scottish White looked terrible in person - like a bad chemical reaction had begun to yellow the polymers of some toxic 3rd world approximation of "enamel". It will only get worse over time. Could go SW and rattle can the body in three years when the paint warranty ends. I've already dropped the Grey frame which has been something I've wanted on vehicles for years (light colored chassis components).

This leaves the factory lockers. I think they will be the only option ever for Grenadiers for two reasons. 1) The IG is not made in 4Runner numbers and does not use Dana axles. There's not enough demand for 3rd parties to do the R&D and 2) Numerous calls over the last 2 years to Eaton have revealed that - on the aftermarket side at least - no one there had ever heard of the Grenadier let alone Ineos. Maybe we'll get lucky and off-the shelf options will fit an open diff. I wouldn't hold my breath. I have talked to other manufacturers as well with no encouraging responses.

Do I need them? No. Everything I get myself into has been resolved with a single locked axle. Ineos isn't giving us a choice of front OR rear. That brings me to $79K and change. That really means $80K+ to get the keys in my hand. Nope. Need to cut elsewhere to get back to that $77K number or less to follow through. At $75 I wouldn't feel completely stupid. The Grenadier will only get more expensive as time goes on unless sales tank and they cheapen everything up.

is there one person even getting the Bridgestone tires?

Bridgestone all the way. I've had great luck with their tires. I need the best MPG I can get and on road snow capability. Fully locked with a little rock stacking will cover anything I will force an expensive car into during the warranty years. After that it would get skinny 33"s.