Americas The big May 17 Announcement / Pricing / Discussion thread.

[bmore_burnsy]

There's supposed to be both an immediate MD dealership (presumably near where the test drive was) and a future Northern VA one. The LinkedIn post, however, has NJ (understandable since that's the port location), and PA. Or all the way down in NC.

I found this very disappointing too. It's no consolation that one may open in late 2024 when IA says it will deliver vehicles in 2023. Perhaps IA will show reservation holders some love and drop the destination fee I won't hold my breath.

 

[ADVAW8S]

Stripping it down to get to a price point doesn’t make it any different you’re still paying more for what you’re getting

Can you explain how? I mean can you provide a parts co.parison where Ineos is providing you a cheap parts option compared to another vehicle. Like I get it, I can get a Jeep at a lower price but can you tell me that the manufacture of a set part is a tip line choice compared to the co.parable part on Ineos.

 

[nobody_asked]

Can you explain how? I mean can you provide a parts co.parison where Ineos is providing you a cheap parts option compared to another vehicle. Lime I get it, I can get a Jeep at a lower price but can you tell me that the manufacture of a set part is a tip line choice compared to the co.parable part on Ineos.

I understand Ineos is using top manufacturers (parts) but people are talking like this makes up for the lack of historical data on reliability or lack of one. This vehicles hasn't really been consumer tested in volume and there are already known issues, vibrations, electronics (this one I find particularly funny since they talk about using 50% less), etc. Of course these are all things first adopters accept but lets not make Ineos out as the pinnacle of off road perfection, at least not yet.

Like many, the price was higher than expected and there are many unknowns concerning the US dealer market and purchase process. I'm still a definite maybe on purchasing one.

 

[REOhio]

I understand Ineos is using top manufacturers (parts) but people are talking like this makes up for the lack of historical data on reliability or lack of one. This vehicles hasn't really been consumer tested in volume and there are already known issues, vibrations, electronics (this one I find particularly funny since they talk about using 50% less), etc. Of course these are all things first adopters accept but lets not make Ineos out as the pinnacle of off road perfection, at least not yet.

Like many, the price was higher than expected and there are many unknowns concerning the US dealer market and purchase process. I'm still a definite maybe on purchasing one.

THIS! +1

 

[Loc Nar]

Like many of you, I have been wincing at the cost of configuring a Grenadier to my liking. To try to gain a little perspective, I looked over the MSRP cost ($57,340) plus a few selected accessories ($1,209.50) for the last new vehicle I ended up purchasing, which was a top of the line 2017 Acura MDX AWD (purchased in December 2016). The MSRP plus accessories came to a total of $58,549.50 (not including tax, tags, title). And I know this is NOT an apples to apples comparison, but I still said to myself, "Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. Much more reasonable. Wish I could get the Grenadier for somewhere in that range." But then I ran that number through the DOL's CPI Inflation calculator:

$58,549.50 in December 2016 = $73,568.34 in April 2023

I know it's mainly just psychological, but this gave me a better perspective on the pricing of the Grenadier, and it will certainly be part of my briefing to the Appropriations Committee, particularly since I purchased the MDX for her:

"See, the Grenadier base model actually starts less than what the MSRP for your Acura would be in today's dollars. And the MSRP on a 2023 top of the line MDX is even higher at $73,200. We, of course, need more add-ons and accessories for the Grenadier since it will be primarily for off-road use. So, really, when you look at it correctly, $82,485 today for a mildly optioned Trialmaster is really only $65,645.84 if we had had the opportunity to buy it when we bought your car. So, it's really only a hair over $7,000 more than we paid for your car. I think that's doable, don't you?"

Wish me luck.

 

[CryHavoc]

I understand Ineos is using top manufacturers (parts) but people are talking like this makes up for the lack of historical data on reliability or lack of one. This vehicles hasn't really been consumer tested in volume and there are already known issues, vibrations, electronics (this one I find particularly funny since they talk about using 50% less), etc. Of course these are all things first adopters accept but lets not make Ineos out as the pinnacle of off road perfection, at least not yet.

Like many, the price was higher than expected and there are many unknowns concerning the US dealer market and purchase process. I'm still a definite maybe on purchasing one.

A big hang-up I have and didn't even think of until just the other day...was the lack of analog gauges anywhere. My buddy had his Rubicon over to work on in my garage and he was mentioning that his center dash display as well as his head unit have gone completely black (independent of one another) on more than one occasion. Fortunately he has analog gauges. But...with the Grenadier (yet another thing that goes against the Luddite philosophy it was, supposedly, being built on), all actual info is through some Chinese manufactured display. If it goes kaput for any number of reasons...you're running blind save for bringing up your phone as a speedometer. Though I've no idea if that would kick off any number of safety errors/fallbacks/limp modes.

It boggles my mind that they have top notch parts tied to, frankly, a budget brain. And with the current climate? Good luck getting updates (current s/w update debacle anyone?) in a timely manner.

 

[CryHavoc]

Like many of you, I have been wincing at the cost of configuring a Grenadier to my liking. To try to gain a little perspective, I looked over the MSRP cost ($57,340) plus a few selected accessories ($1,209.50) for the last new vehicle I ended up purchasing, which was a top of the line 2017 Acura MDX AWD (purchased in December 2016). The MSRP plus accessories came to a total of $58,549.50 (not including tax, tags, title). And I know this is NOT an apples to apples comparison, but I still said to myself, "Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. Much more reasonable. Wish I could get the Grenadier for somewhere in that range." But then I ran that number through the DOL's CPI Inflation calculator:

$58,549.50 in December 2016 = $73,568.34 in April 2023

I know it's mainly just psychological, but this gave me a better perspective on the pricing of the Grenadier, and it will certainly be part of my briefing to the Appropriations Committee, particularly since I purchased the MDX for her:

"See, the Grenadier base model actually starts less than what the MSRP for your Acura would be in today's dollars. And the MSRP on a 2023 top of the line MDX is even higher at $73,200. We, of course, need more add-ons and accessories for the Grenadier since it will be primarily for off-road use. So, really, when you look at it correctly, $82,485 today for a mildly optioned Trialmaster is really only $65,645.84 if we had had the opportunity to buy it when we bought your car. So, it's really only a hair over $7,000 more than we paid for your car. I think that's doable, don't you?"

Wish me luck.

100% understand this. Hell...the dealership offered me $20k...yes...two-zero thousand...over what I paid for my RAM just two or three months later during the chip shortage. I already had more than that in it, and...frankly...what would I replace it with!?, so I said thanks but no. Now? Zero chance you'd get my truck for what I paid for it just two years ago. With that said...my salary sure hasn't increased at that same rate . We also weren't in the market for a new vehicle. It just happened that the Gren was available now. If it came out say two years from now, we'd be in a completely different position to just splurge. As it is, I have the payment on the RAM, so my value calculations are going to be different...as with everyone.

 

[MarksGrenadier]

Well there are a huge number of comments on this thread in just a day, mostly valid, and the consensus is that they have overpriced the vehicle substantially. When I clicked in yesterday to the two build's I have done previously it came to 91K and 93K respectively. I was expecting around 10K less to be honest after working backwards from the UK pricing exl. VAT.

We have sales tax 8.3%, shipping, prep and registration so I'm at 100K to 103K out the door. That's quite a bit higher that many other choices.

Now the final straw could be when we get told what dealer to work with and they decide to add another 10K to 20K additional dealer markup like many other brands do. That shock could come long after the vehicle is ordered and locked in, which will be interesting when people cancel after the car is built and on a boat.

I'm not sure if I will continue with this order quite yet but I think Ineos has made a huge mistake in the NA market. When you want to introduce a new product to market, you need to have an aggressive pricing strategy at first until it takes hold. We have many choices, and those brands all have established dealer networks for parts and service, while Ineos is completely untested. By definition this no frills 4x4 is aimed at people that will abuse them off road in difficult conditions. Shit breaks, and when you can't get it fixed the vehicle will lose its luster quickly. I'm sure all the jeep guys will love to point that out. In Reno we have half a dozen 4x4 offroad stores all selling Bronco, Jeep and Toyota parts, what about Grenadier parts??. I might be one of 3 owners in this city so who will stock it. They are also pricing their accessories very high, $ 4,200 for a winch?? WTF. There are many winches, good ones, under 2K. Will they fit??

Anyway, enough whining, I can probably afford to do it as I have been pining for one for 3 years, but I certainly don't need the vehicle as I have a company truck and other personal vehicles already all of them 4x4. Also, why would I take delivery just when the winter sets in and I can't use it other than driving around in snow. I may wait a year and see if this becomes a viable brand over here and wait for the sales department to price them to the real market.

The best comment I saw was that they may have hired the Bud Lite PR team to roll this launch out, an unforced error in my opinion.

For now I will grab a bag of popcorn and see what develops

 

[Paachi]

Okay, now that I’ve had 24 hours to calm down, digest the price, the configuration options and read through the comments here, here is my second take as an early hand raiser, an evangelist and an unabashed enthusiast of the Grenadier vision.

TLDR: I am now revising my position to cautiously IN. Caveats being the fuel consumption and final dealer shenanigans.
---------------------------------------------------------


Now for the long rambling version:


I think the price is a small sticking point. It is $10K too much but in the grand scheme of owning a car for 10+ years, not a big deal. The VALUE however, for ~$90K (as I specced it Trialmaster + winch + sliders + some small key things and base color white) is just barely there. If it had been priced 10K less for the same config, it would have been a home run. I also feel like the value of individual component prices are a bit on the higher side. More on that in the final considerations below



Going back to an earlier post by @ChasingOurTrunks , in the US, try to find another vehicle which is as stoutly built, as capable, comes ready from factory for travel (you literally don’t need anything, not even different tires, to take it to the remotest of places..only Jeep Rubicon and maybe 4Runner TRD Pro can have the same claim). So let me have my own take in examining a few other vehicles with my lens on what I value. I am gonna look primarily at Wagons and not Trucks/ Utes (the use case that I care for and have researched for)

My build plan/ considerations for each of these vehicles including the Gren would be
- Ripping off the rear seats for storage and sleeping platform and interior habitation
- Metal F&R bumpers and sliders for tighter angles and better bump protection
- Raised air intake for cleaner, cooler air
- Aux electrics for fridge and backup. Maybe one set of low mounted lights for night conditions but nothing crazy like light bars
- Focus on habitation and travel needs rather than crazy off roading


Used LC200:

Pros: This is the vehicle I’d buy if I wasn’t getting the Gren. Stout build quality, excellent dealer and after market support, under stressed engine, reliable drivetrain and decent interiors and more spacious than a Gren. Pretty decent payload at ~1750 Lbs

Cons: Expensive..it makes the Grenadier look positively cheap once you factor locking diffs, metal bumpers, larger tires, Aux electrical, etc. Used LC200 <50K miles + outfitting it = ~$100K and potentially adding a lot of weight
The tank range (fuel economy 13 US mpg X tank size 25 gal = 325 miles) like a Grenadier is pathetic..but very very good after market options. More on this later


Lexus GX460 (Prado with a V8 Petrol):

Pros: Build quality and reliability is downright amazing. The V8 is under stressed and has gobs of power and quite decent fuel economy at 16 mpg. The payload is pretty good, ~1700 lbs because its a 7 seater

Cons: After market support is present but scarce. You can get bumpers, sliders and aux tank done..so there’s that. They key for the GX is that, modding is absolutely necessary and it is a pain the arse to mod. In stock form, its awesome capability is hidden under a tinsel of fake chrome and plastic which needs to be cut off if you want to get better departure and approach angles. You need to cut off interior trim to remove the 3rd row seats and build a platform. After buying it new and then outfitting it you are close to $80-90K again. If not a LC200 this would be my next choice in tie with the 4Runner


Toyota 4Runner:

Pros: A lot cheaper platform (~$60K for a TRD Pro) and is eminently due to be upgraded to the next iteration. The current version with the 4.0L V6 and 5 speed transmission is super reliable but decidedly old school in its power delivery and capacity.

Again an amazing after market that IMHO allows tasteful modifications to make it travel ready (aux tank, stream lined bumpers, sliders, etc.) without making it an over the top brodozer. This is a good value truck where you can buy it new and outfit it for travel at about ~$70-80K (sneezingly close to the Grenadier)
Pretty decent payload for its size ~1550 lbs

Cons:The frame and foundations are strong but not Land Cruiser/ Grenadier stout. I personally find the interior just about ok and borderline cramped.


Jeep Wrangler Rubicon 3.6:

Pros: I still think this is the king of the road when it comes to modify-ability, after market support and hard core 4 wheeling.

The 3.6 Pentastar is the only engine I’d take. It’s proven reliable (especially paired to the 8 speed ZF box). The HEMI in the 390, the 3.0 Diesel are all having issues; the 4xe with the 2.0 turbo seems anemic in petrol only mode. The 3.6 is due to be replaced with the new Hurricane engines soon. Jury is out on their reliability.

Probably the only other vehicle outside the Grenadier and 4Runner TRD which is ready to be taken anywhere right out of the showroom

The stock tank range is ok-ish but the aftermarket has good support here

Cons: Shite payload. The Rubicon has ~1100 lbs, the Diesel and 390, I think, have ~800-900lbs. Absolutely piss poor. I am a big guy at 220 lbs and 6’. To me the interior is quite cramped for me

Both these factors make it a no go for me. The Jeep is probably the only true ‘cheaper’ option to the Grenadier by about $10-$15K..but is no where as stoutly built or comfortable


Shorter summaries on other considerations:

Ford Bronco:
In paper an awesome vehicle..but having dealt with multiple Ford dealers earlier..I will categorically NEVER buy another Ford car till they come up with a different engagement model. And secondly, they need to ask their bean counters to bugger off. The interiors of a Bronco are shockingly appalling.


Toyota Sequoia TRD:
I have looked long and hard at the Sequoia. It seems spacious and has the same underpinnings of the LC300. However, the electrical architecture is a bit untested in terms of reliability and secondly, its eats a lot into interior space for a sleeping build out. The payload is poor at ~1550 lbs, given its size, And, Finally, price wise you are back at $80K and above before even shedding the plastic and a basic build out


LR Defender 110:
I love Land Rovers..used to have a Range Rover P38 for the longest time. Believe it or not it was a pretty reliable truck all things considered. I’ve had more things to fix in my G-Wagen than the P38, but the P38 wasn’t used for hard travel and camping..it was a city grocery getter.

But the P38 was way more mechanical and analog than the new Defender. I just can’t wrap my head around air bag issues (which is exactly the one thing that broke in my P38), the electronics, etc. And god I hate the design. Gerry McGovern..what paint thinner were you inhaling when you designed it?

So the new Defender is out.


Now, Lets talk fuel economy and mileage:
I am generally not a big fan of the archaic EPA..but the one thing they seem to get right is the real life fuel economy for vehicles in real life driving conditions. Their estimates for the LC200, Jeep 3.6, 4Runner and GX460 are spot on based on my experience. So I am inclined to believe the 14/ 14/ 14 US mpg number unless Ineos revises it drastically. 14 US mpg X 23.5 Gal tank = 329 miles of range. Unless there is immediate after market support for this to extend it to 5-600 miles, it’s a surefire no go for me. And let’s not forget, this is a petrol not a diesel car. So off-road, the 14 mpg is more like 10 mpg.

More in Part 2 below

 

[REOhio]

Well there are a huge number of comments on this thread in just a day, mostly valid, and the consensus is that they have overpriced the vehicle substantially. When I clicked in yesterday to the two build's I have done previously it came to 91K and 93K respectively. I was expecting around 10K less to be honest after working backwards from the UK pricing exl. VAT.

We have sales tax 8.3%, shipping, prep and registration so I'm at 100K to 103K out the door. That's quite a bit higher that many other choices.

Now the final straw could be when we get told what dealer to work with and they decide to add another 10K to 20K additional dealer markup like many other brands do. That shock could come long after the vehicle is ordered and locked in, which will be interesting when people cancel after the car is built and on a boat.

I'm not sure if I will continue with this order quite yet but I think Ineos has made a huge mistake in the NA market. When you want to introduce a new product to market, you need to have an aggressive pricing strategy at first until it takes hold. We have many choices, and those brands all have established dealer networks for parts and service, while Ineos is completely untested. By definition this no frills 4x4 is aimed at people that will abuse them off road in difficult conditions. Shit breaks, and when you can't get it fixed the vehicle will lose its luster quickly. I'm sure all the jeep guys will love to point that out. In Reno we have half a dozen 4x4 offroad stores all selling Bronco, Jeep and Toyota parts, what about Grenadier parts??. I might be one of 3 owners in this city so who will stock it. They are also pricing their accessories very high, $ 4,200 for a winch?? WTF. There are many winches, good ones, under 2K. Will they fit??

Anyway, enough whining, I can probably afford to do it as I have been pining for one for 3 years, but I certainly don't need the vehicle as I have a company truck and other personal vehicles already all of them 4x4. Also, why would I take delivery just when the winter sets in and I can't use it other than driving around in snow. I may wait a year and see if this becomes a viable brand over here and wait for the sales department to price them to the real market.

The best comment I saw was that they may have hired the Bud Lite PR team to roll this launch out, an unforced error in my opinion.

For now I will grab a bag of popcorn and see what develops

Well said. Exactly where I am. As a Jeep guy I did have to do some cross-shopping. A five minute drive from our home is a great Jeep dealer. They have a new Rubicon on the lot with literally every option listed for $60,375. There's also a Grand Cherokee Summit Reserve there for $73,625. Both available with 2.99% financing for 48 months if I don't want to stroke a check. The IG is making less and less and less sense to me with each passing moment. Pass the popcorn please.

 

[Paachi]

Part 2 of my response because I seemed to have found the forum limit on charater count of a post


Final considerations:

- When you compare all the above vehicles on an at par scale, the Grenadier is actually not that expensive. If you think about inflation over the past couple of years, the rising prices will be the new normal

- I am a big believer in a pop-up camper setup or sleeping in the vehicle. I hate roof racks and RTTs due the physics of weight and wind resistance. With that in mind, the Grenadier is probably going to be only only 2-3 vehicles in my consideration set which can be converted into a live in camper. There others being my current G-Wagon and the Jeep (LC200 if you consider a crazy Maltec build..but then you are talking different degree of $$s). I believe Alucab is working on a pop-up camper for the Gren. While their designs are heavy, I do believe it will add significant value and capability to the vehicle

- The cost and value of the add-ons is a bit all over the place. If its the price including installation, then its perfectly reasonable. Ex: A winch for $4K installed is fine..but for winch only and then paying dealers for install is rip off. Same thing with sliders, tail gate table etc. Secondly, the price for mechanical only items like Safari windows ($2.1K), heated seats ($500), Saddle leather ($800) is crazy high!

- The fuel economy and range is by far my biggest irritation. In todays day and age 14 mpg from a turbo charged and purportedly detuned engine with 91 octane is bull shit. The 23.5 gal tank is also barely good. Ineos better think about solving this if they want my $$s

- My second biggest gripe is I am not liking what I am hearing about the dealer model for the early hand raisers. As an early hand raiser I expected two things

1. Get preferential pricing, which we are getting. I’m sure the prices will go. Up by 10% or more from Ineos and another 10-20% in the form of dealer markups once early hand raiser orders are filled. Then a $90K spec will be a $120K car. What will be interesting to see if that sways any of the G-Wagon buyers. But it will squarely put Ineos out of the consideration set of the Jeep and 4runner buyer
2. Not deal with pesky dealer mark ups and shenanigans. Again, Ineos, please fix this if you want my $$. I won’t pay the dealer a cent above MSRP and taxes

Thank you if you persisted this far into my ramblings.

Like @Stu_Barnes said, this is now a heart over head decision. I love the Grenadier and have cheered for it from the day they announced their intention, I have spoken to their NA CEO Greg in person at length and by and large I am not surprised by some of the landing decisions. But if I do decide to buy it, it will be because of my heart not head

 

[CryHavoc]

They are also pricing their accessories very high, $ 4,200 for a winch?? WTF. There are many winches, good ones, under 2K. Will they fit??

All similar points that I'm concerned about. Sure an LC200 is relatively boring, but I can find parts/service pretty much anywhere in the world, let alone within 50 miles of any one spot in the US

The winch thing, though...it's a custom-sized winch for that bumper. Any aftermarket solution will involve fab work or a whole new bumper (which will be what? $1,500 - $2,000 + freight + installation, or your own back ache to do it). There's no drop-in solution. Factor in this is installed, covered under the factory warranty (not just some 12-month manufacturer warranty or what have you), includes the uprated overhead panel (which is over a grand alone), and it's not a bad deal, IMO. My gripe with it is the short line it comes with, but I'll just carry an extension.

 

[Offroad]

I was also expecting it to be somewhat cheaper at the base level but I don't think it's necessarily expensive. It's expensive if you compare it to a Jeep or a Bronco but I think the comp cars for the Grenadier are Defenders (New and Old) and the G Wagon. My 97 D90 is basically worth the same as the Grenadier cost. The risk here is that it's a new model AND not being close to a dealer (in my case) but I am excited.

 

[MileHigh]

I’m on the fence, but if nothing changes- and things only seem to get worse- I’ll probably end up stringing along Ineos and dropping at the last chance. But we’ll see. They have some time to get things back on track. I think their dealer network shows that they are not a national brand and are just chasing big-buck buyers.

Who knows, maybe their real wish is a true offset to the M-wagen - and we are in for a 30% price increase over the Next few years, and we’ll consider these prices ‘bargains’…

 

[jamgolf]

For me, the one thing they need to NAIL is dependability/reliability.
It must be LC200 level of reliability. If it is - then I am IN. If not, I am OUT.

Early indications suggest the start has not been solid. Let's see if they can turn this trend.

 

[Zimm]

That is basically how I am justifying this purchase. Not any appreciation per se, but I could buy a used 90's 110 for the same price, and it will oil my concrete and not be nearly as good on the road.

I figure worst case scenario is I lose a bit if I decide to sell, but I'm guessing these will hold value fairly well. Unless the go out of business and there is no support, but I'm guessing Sir Jimmy has a bit too much pride to allow that to happen any time soon. And with what they are charging, he might add a few billion to his net worth.

He's really wealthy. Part of being really wealthy is knowing when to cut projects and run. Pride does not bring wealth.

 

[TradChap]

Yup $30k more than a Jeep Gladiator I'm out. The base Grenadier is really $30k more than the Gladiator Sport and the Trialmaster and Fieldmaster are $30k more than the Rubicon. Unlike most I actually want to push my vehicle off road on tough trails. I'm glad the next generation of Gladiator and Wranglers coming out soon will finally have side curtain airbags for the front and rear seats because that was the only thing stopping me from getting one before. I don't think this vehicle is going to sell well in America or Australia at all and will probably be a complete flop when we have so many other options for way more affordable prices. Maybe some rich retired people will buy this vehicle for the looks but probably around 0.02% of them will ever take the vehicle off-roading on anything more than a grass field or dirt road.

 

[Zimm]

'90's D110 (if it's truly legal) is SO far from the experience I had in the IG last week. Looks similar, but not a similar experience in the least.

A 93 d110nas showed up at the dealership as is, with a badge number, and guarantee of exclusivity. This does not do that. This could be a Rivian.

 

[emax]

we needed a benchmark, so I picked the Big Mac from McDonalds

The idea is not bad, but e.g. in UK a Big Mac is comparably cheap.

The price for an ounce of Gold seems more relevant to me.

 

[Krabby]

The idea is not bad, but e.g. in UK a Big Mac is comparably cheap.

The price for an ounce of Gold seems more relevant to me.

Gold is not nearly as tasty as a Big Mac.