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Americas The big May 17 Announcement / Pricing / Discussion thread.

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After playing with the configurator, I think the message here is go big or go home. The base model is a poor value proposition.

Fully loaded, the pricing becomes relatively acceptable but still a huge pill to swallow and one which I suspect most of us will walk away from.
 
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people just shouldn't use the current defender as a comp car for the IG.

this car is really in it's own class and can't be price comped or weighed against the list of alternatives I'm seeing.

as for reliability, I think some are expectiing a land cruiser type of thing but you just don't know. but one thing many people know is that jag/lr are complete shit for reliability and are not long term keepers.
 

DDG

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It really bummed me out seeing this announcement today. I’m in no way sensitive to price. I own what I want. The reason I can not care about price is because I don’t waste money. At $98k (as I configured mine) an Ineos Grenadier is a monumentally bad value. The rollout, so far, has done absolutely nothing to earn a reputation deserving of these prices. Written between the lines of the early adopters reviews is a metric ton of excuse making and blind fan boy optimism. There is a real chance that Ineos figures it out and gets the build quality right in subsequent years. I will remain totally open to that. Even hopeful that they do. It’s too good of a story to not cheer for them and hope they succeed. But this is NOT how you build a reputation. This is hubris and folly. Fake confidence and unearned credibility. A stripped down, basic station wagon for $75k? No way.
 

DCPU

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I don't think there's any info one way or the other about factory capacity. However, I believe Sir Jim said they'd need to sell 25000 to be profitable. The current factory doesn't have a ton of capacity, given the video I've seen.
"Ineos will carefully manage any increases in production volume
“We’re planning on 25,000 to 30,000 a year when we get up to peak,” he [Mark Tennant] told us. “We can build more, that’s on a two-shift pattern. On three shifts, we could do 50,000, but we’ve said from the beginning, this is a niche proposition, we’re not taking on the big boys. What we’ve said is there’s a white space in this market because a number of other vehicles that used to inhabit it have departed and we need to have a business case that works on niche numbers. Obviously, we’ll be thrilled if we start having discussions about needing a third shift, that’s great but it’s not something you put in the business plan from day one.”
Using the smart carts that they are currently using, they might be able to get to the 25000ish figure (roughly 100 cars per production day). Beyond that, they need a good ole overhead car manufacturing conveyor system. (I worked in a car factory for many years).
They have one:
ineos-grenadier-pre-production_100829369_h.jpg

The Ineos EV will be built at Magna Steyer in Austria, not in France. So, I think that speaks to the limits of the French factory.
I think it speaks to the expertise of Magna and the completly different proposition assembling an electric vehicle is.
 

MileHigh

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Less for more? Who do they think they are? Porsche?
 

Stu_Barnes

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We feel for a lot of our USA Brethren regarding the price shock.
I think most of us felt a little similar when the prices were initially released here in OZ, however after the initial phase passed, we still saw the value in the vehicle despite the pricing.
I would be interested to hear @Stu_Barnes take on it all, and how the pricing sits in the USA market, and how it is impacting perceptions.
OK, but I'll keep it brief, today has been a mare,

There have been a few rage quits, no personal abuse and me smacking my head on the door of the disco and a couple of butterfly stitches for the pleasure.

As far as the Grenadier pricing for NA, I was expecting maybe 5k less, starting with a 6 (to emotionally make things easier) out the door before taxes but that wasn't so. I'm sure that over the next few days we will have a lot of number crunching and see that the price is more or less in line with elsewhere. Thats an assumption on my part buy the way.

Theres one big thing that keeps slapping me in the face like a cold wet fish, and it's the comparison to other vehicles. Comparing to other vehicles its ability is, I'm sure slightly better or worse and in some cases equally as well, but the big thing that niggles at me is what can we compare this to realistically speaking for the quality of engineering behind the stuff stuff. With that I'm referring to chassis thickness, thickness and overall strength of the individual suspension and steering components the links that transmit the forces between the axles, chassis, steering and running gear, the list is pretty big on this front and I could go on but you get where I'm headed with this. For instance How many vehicles available today straight out of the door can you stand on the front wing?

Just the weight alone can tell a tale with this vehicle.

The other large untold cost of really using a vehicle like this is the ongoing maintenance costs to keep it in great shape. If the engineering is there then this should be reasonably small on the user for a good while.


For me and I'm sure many here, this is a tough one, it's a head - heart thing. One thing that I'm sure of, they will sell like hot cakes and the second hand market will be ferocious in 2 years when a certain crowd have had enough.


Enough from me, I need to send some Questions off to INEOS Americas :)
 

BD1

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Stu - good perspective and thanks for sharing.

There is a lot of apple and oranges comparisons here but I completely understand why someone might want an orange vs and apple.

It was also about 5K higher than I thought it would be, and I agree it will sell out the first few years with a strong after market.
 
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After playing with the configurator, I think the message here is go big or go home. The base model is a poor value proposition.

Fully loaded, the pricing becomes relatively acceptable but still a huge pill to swallow and one which I suspect most of us will walk away from.
I agree with you. I'm playing with the configurator and I would not be happy with a stripped down version just to save $10K. You have to think of future resale also.
My build comes to over $110,000 Canadian. Wow a $1485 luxury tax on a utility truck. The 5% sales tax has not been added on. Will I face a dealer fee? Its all unclear. I can see the final price to be around $120K.
My dreams have been dashed. I need to give my head a shake. Common sense says to run away.

Hey the new Toyota Tacoma Trail Hunter will be announced on Friday. It now can be ordered as a crew cab with an extended 77 inch box. That has peaked my interest. I'm sure it will come in $40k less.

Cheers, m
 
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After reading all of this I’m in the same boat generally. I love this car and have been following since day 1, BUT, this pricing is just not in line with what is being provided IMHO. I was thinking a loaded Jeep JL, or a loaded Bronco Badlands, which totals about $70k, then add $5k for low volume euro = $75k. Unfortunately at $85k comparable is $10k over that, or a $15k premium for this (plus tax). Not worth it.

Someone said that this is a bespoke small batch 4x4 that cannot be compared to a Jeep or Bronco, BS. This is exactly what it should be compared to. It should not be compared to a G-wagon or maybe even a defender, it has none of the fit or finish of those vehicles, sorry but it’s a rudimentary tractor at best (but in the best possible way:)).

It’s just too much $$ for this vehicle as an unproven item and manufacturer. That being said, I’m debating still going ahead to see what happens with the new 4-Runner, the new possibility of a USA Landcruiser (?), or the whole car market in general. Things may stay the same (tap-out), or things may het weird. $450 is sort of minimal against a $90k vehicle, or the crazy dealer markups lately.

All in all, kinda lame for Ineos to treat its most devoted fans with this. If it all comes down like a house of cards, this will be a big reason.
 
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Tell me how the 4x4 systems, as an example, can ever be seen to be "the sameish spec"?
High/low range with center locking diff? If you want to add front and rear lockers to the Defender, it is less than adding lockers to the Grenadier.

Seems pretty similar to me?
 

DDG

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Everyone who hasn’t; be sure to go sign up on instagram so you can let Ineos know what you think of their pricing
 
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High/low range with center locking diff? If you want to add front and rear lockers to the Defender, it is less than adding lockers to the Grenadier.

Seems pretty similar to me?
Yea at the end of the day how many of us would take such a huge investment into an area that will need the front and rear lockers.
 
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Yea at the end of the day how many of us would take such a huge investment into an area that will need the front and rear lockers.
For most people in the US, these are just really cool looking daily drivers. A lot will get the occasional "overlanding" trip that consists of driving some nice dirt roads to the campground with a bathroom, to sleep in a rooftop tent for the weekend.

The same goes for all the Jeeps you see on 37s :ROFLMAO:
 

Tazzieman

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Everyone who hasn’t; be sure to go sign up on instagram so you can let Ineos know what you think of their pricing
You just need to send the pic
 

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It really bummed me out seeing this announcement today. I’m in no way sensitive to price. I own what I want. The reason I can not care about price is because I don’t waste money. At $98k (as I configured mine) an Ineos Grenadier is a monumentally bad value. The rollout, so far, has done absolutely nothing to earn a reputation deserving of these prices. Written between the lines of the early adopters reviews is a metric ton of excuse making and blind fan boy optimism. There is a real chance that Ineos figures it out and gets the build quality right in subsequent years. I will remain totally open to that. Even hopeful that they do. It’s too good of a story to not cheer for them and hope they succeed. But this is NOT how you build a reputation. This is hubris and folly. Fake confidence and unearned credibility. A stripped down, basic station wagon for $75k? No way.
Absolutely agree with this.
 

ChasingOurTrunks

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I have something that might be helpful to folks and it's exactly what Stu described (Hope your head is OK Stu!! You only have one so stop using it to test the structure of your Disco's doors, ok? They are strong enough!) and that's it's comparison with other vehicles.

Here's the assumptions on my analysis:

1) I built the cars from regional websites by "pretending" I was a customer in the United States, Canada, the U.K., Australia, and South Africa. My build was based on the "tool to do a job" analogy, which means in every case I had to add a few things over the base, but my goal was to add the minimum options necessary to each vehicle in each market to get them suitable for a basic scenario/use case, or as close as I could get to it. I defined that use case as follows: I want an off road vehicle that allows me to tow, has front and rear lockers (or the equivalent in the case of the LR), and has the ability to pop off a part of the roof to stand and take pictures. My reason for having that last one in this comparison is that it is the default state for one of the comparators (Jeep), so I might as well try to get as close to apples to apples. I did not add any other options unless I had no choice. All vehicles are petrol with automatic transmissions - note that the jeep can be had for less with a manual, which is actually preferable for some, but again apples to apples. I should add though, that some vehicles come with a LOT more stuff in the "base" price -- the Land Rover interior has premium audio and finishes by default, for instance, whereas those are options on the other marques.

2) The analysis isn't perfect. Not all packages are the same around the world; for instance I was unable to get a price from the Australian website for a Defender, so I had to guesstimate how much the options I added (tow package and locker systems) would cost from third party data, so I'm probably a bit off there. Another example is that the Jeep in both Canada and the USA come with a soft top, so I added the hard top; this appears to be default in the UK and Australia. In Canada, you cannot just get the tow package, it comes with the high load aux switches, whereas in the USA you can do the tow package without the aux switches. So, it's not perfect because of these regional configurator differences, but it's not a terrible "dead reckoning".

3) Finally, the actual dollar price is pretty irrelevant; the vehicle is not priced based on exchange rates but instead on what the local market will bear. To that end, all of the numbers are expressed in the local currency. With that thought, we needed a benchmark, so I picked the Big Mac from McDonalds, also expressed in local currency. This can be thought of as your opportunity cost -- "How many Big Macs could I get if instead of buying (model) of vehicle, I went to McDonalds?".

I think that covers most of the context, here are the numbers:

Prices of Various Vehicles Expressed in Local Currency

VehicleUSACanadaUKAustraliaSouth Africa
Wrangler$56,630$65,275£62,520$98,534R1,099,900
Gladiator$55,075$67,225£N/A$94,212R1,329,900
Defender$67,875$82,730£70,925$87,830R1,816,600
Grenadier$77,300$101,084£61,970$104,385R1,584,635
Big Mac$5.78$6.70£3.81$6.48R47.24



How Many Big Macs Can I Buy For The Price Of That Car?

VehicleUSACanadaUKAustraliaSouth Africa
Wrangler9,797.69,742.516,409.515,205.923,283.2
Gladiator9,528.510,033.6N/A14,538.928,152.0
Defender11,743.112,347.818,615.513,554.038,454.7
Grenadier13,373.715,087.216,265.115,108.833,544.3

So what does the analysis above show? Well, the first blush is that my reaction to the Canadian pricing was not unfair -- the biggest affordability jump from the competition is in Canada. I could get 2,739.4 Big Macs for the money I would save buying the Defender instead of the Grenadier. For my American friends, you would be able to get only 1,630.6 Big Macs for the money you'd save buying the Defender instead of the Gren. In the UK, the Defender would actually mean you could get 2,350 Big Macs if you purchased the Gren instead of the Defender. Australians can get 1554.8 Big Macs if they "skimp" and buy the Defender instead of the Gren. South Africans -- apart from getting stupid good deals on Big Macs -- would be able to buy 4,910 Big Macs if they buy the Gren instead of the Defender.

So, it seems like in some places, the Gren is the value option. In other places, like the ones whose flag is adorned with a Maple Leaf, it's exorbitantly more expensive than the competition. It also shows that dollar for dollar, the Gren is priced similarly in the USA and Australia; less than 100 Big Macs isn't a lot on a purchase of this size. In Europe and South Africa, the Gren is a relative steal of a deal.

Personally, if I were in America, I'd still be in - the value is there. But in Canada, it is not. Each of these vehicles represents some sort of compromise on the Gren, but as I've said earlier in this thread, I can compromise on a lot for 2739 Big Macs. That's 3 years worth of dinners' difference between what a Canadian pays for the Gren as compared to what an American pays for the Gren, versus the other options.

This was a quick comparison, and I could easily have made mistakes on the numbers and I'm totally open to folks correcting any of the above based on their own analysis; good science needs repeatability so if others are willing to do a similar experiment and post the results, that would be awesome.
 
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DCPU

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High/low range with center locking diff? If you want to add front and rear lockers to the Defender, it is less than adding lockers to the Grenadier.

Seems pretty similar to me?
New Defender does not have a centre locking diff ~ it's now described as an AWD system, and with front wheel disconnect runs in 2 wheel drive as much as possible. The Grenadier is permanent 4x4.

Again the "diff locks" in both axles are clutch packs limiting slip. You can't select to lock either diff in advance of an obstacle, you have to drive in, ensure you use too much throttle to achieve a wheel spin and hope the system then reacts before your spinning tyres takes you off in a direction you hadn't intended.

On an input specification crosscheck list for both drivetrains, you could put ticks against tyres, wheels, brakes, gearbox but just about everything else is poles apart.
 

DCPU

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It’s just too much $$ for this vehicle as an unproven item and manufacturer.
Why should it be discounted for being an unproven item? Each new model from a manufacturer is unproven, but they don't discount them all for the first buyers.
 

G-Tank

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So now going down the road of what I can get for $80kish or less
Nicely equipped 2024 Defender 110 3.0l ($78,600 including destination)
Nicely equipped 2024 Ram Power Wagon ($79,660 including destination)
Loaded Jeep Gladiator Rubicon $65,625 (OUCH)
Loaded 2023 Colorado ZR2 with $30 K Left over
Loaded New Bronco with about $15K Left over (OUCH)
2024 Tacoma with $$$ left over
Next Gen 4 runner $$$ left over

The LR3 on Cars and Bids the other day with only 24K miles on it, $55k Left over
Just putting a lift kit on my F150, $78K Left over


Just a small list of options that I have been looking at, seems like life in the automotive world is pretty good, even if the Grenadier is a little more pricey than I was hoping.

I remember the day we bought our Volvo XC70 back in the mid 2000s, couldn't believe we would spend $38,000 on a car.

TFL just put a new video of a 2023 Chevy Silverado ZR2 loaded with steel bumpers and Front and Rear lockers for $85,000.
Options ...... Options !!!
 
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