Americas The big May 17 Announcement / Pricing / Discussion thread.

[bmore_burnsy]

It maybe a niche vehicle, but it still needs to sell a certain volume to be profitable for the company. And for the dealerships to be profitable. And at this price point, I don't think they can sell 25,000 of them worldwide (which is the number Sir Jim mentioned) on a consistent basis.

You may be right! Time will tell.

 

[FlyingTexan]

I spoke with their rep last week. They said the U.S. dealer lobby has gotten very protective laws for dealers, so basically Ineos can't prevent them from upcharging preorders. We will be able to switch dealers any time before it is loaded for delivery, so we have power to tell a marking up dealer pound sand. Now if they all mark up prices, then as my uncle Hamish would say, we're all fooked.

They told me there's no "markup" on the G but that they can charge fees and they told them to try and not go crazy for it. Overall we're getting really screwed and I hope we put on blast any dealer that tries to pull this shit.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

My understanding is will be ok on 87, better with 91.

I kind of like the idea of filling up my adventure vehicle from the bleach jugs at the side of the road of questionable quality; my bike is designed as such and will dynamically adjust it's map to run on very low octane fuel. I'm nervous about what appears to be the hard limit at 87 and would be curious how the fuel mapping accounts for degraded octane conditions which can happen in remote travel -- just because it says 87 on the pump doesn't mean 87 comes out!

It's a small production run, bespoke, luxury vehicle, built from outsourced parts.

Anyone that thought pricing would be in line with Ford, Jeep, and Land Rover's mass produced rigs that are designed and built fully in house, was seriously high.

I don't get what people are smoking comparing the pricing of Ford's Raptors (Bronco and F150) to the IG. The base bronco raptor start at almost 88K (no options) and the V6 Eco boost junk F150 Raptor starts at 77K (the V8 is a 30K option and is the only way to spec the truck imo). Also, these prices don't include dealer markups.

The original vision for the Gren - which many of us long-term reservation holders bought into years ago - was a "no nonsense, capable, robust 4x4 for the world". Every other manufacturer who used to occupy this space was going upmarket - the Land Rover Defender has more computers than Google HQ and has interior finishings that are supposed to match a person's Louis Vutton (sp?) luggage. The Land Cruiser has bloated to a leather-seated, infotainment flagship SUV, not a rough and ready 4x4. The Ineos was supposed to be the spiritual successor to the Land Rover Defender/Series -- they can roll up outside the shops in Chelsea, but they're right at home in the mud on the farm. Luxury wasn't supposed to be a part of it.

And I do think the vehicle is close to that vision from a technical perspective, in terms of balancing a fix-it-with-bailing-wire ethos with some compromises to modernity for regulatory requirements. So, definitely not a luxury vehicle.

Market-wise, in Canada, they are 40% higher than they should be, and that "should be" on my math still allows them to still be the most expensive 4x4 on the market to honour that technical prowess. So, I expected them to be more expensive than the competition.... but not 40% more expensive.

It does seem more reasonable in terms of pricing in the USA -- pricey, but not too far outside the realm of what I expected. In Canada....oof. And that may be driving part of this conversation - the pricing in the USA is a good bit more "fair" for what you get than it is in Canada, but since both got announced today we're talking about both in this thread.

Is he a Ineos Representative on this forum?

I saw someone already answered, but just some more context for our community about our fearless leader Mr. Stu-Barnes - He's just a regular enthusiast like the rest of us who generously donates his time and resources to create this community for the rest of us, with the hope of making a single repository for community-driven information from the Grenadier. Lots of "Sweat equity" has been put into making these convos accessible by Stu, and I think we all owe him a nod of thanks for setting this community up. Given it's all out of pocket for him, there is an opportunity to donate to keep the lights on -- this resource is fantastic for owners (and future owners!) and it exists thanks to Stu!

 

[Heater]

I was very enthusiastic about this but the U.S. MPG figures shown at the summary page aren’t what I expected - 14 MPG combined for the Trialmaster!?

That‘s changing my mind to probably pulling my reservation.

 

[jeremy_matrix]

But EPA DOES have a say, no? Tell me how many APPROVED petrol expansion tanks that aren't factory options, or simply transfer tanks are out there. Not one-offs, not fab jobs There aren't many...if any at all. I know there are some Aussie manufacturers out there for Yotas and such that may? be approved, but require importing. Which is fine...because I CAN get a tank for an LC200

I looked into the 52 gal...only able to work on the 8-ft bed. I have the 6'-4" Le sigh.

EPA has a say for ordering an aftermarket fuel tank and getting it installed? Nope. My 2019 6.2L (petrol) is running a TransferFlow 60gal "diesel" tank. "Custom" install requiring all new hand-bent Ford fuel lines, some different tank vents, but otherwise it bolted up like it would on a diesel truck; still working well on my petrol without issues.
52gal looks to be able to fit a 6'4" bed--I've already looked at this setup myself, Stellantis schematic data, etc; does require some out of box thinking and custom install. Message me if you want to discuss further.

Ineos has told me in several conversations that if you were one of the original reservation holders - I reserved the day the reservation option was available, there would not be a dealer mark up - and the dealers had to honor the sticker pricing. After the first wave of deliveries for the US - its subject to what ever the dealers want to charge.

This would be have been nice to have known from IA in their original info about first day reservations....

Fully agree with you Jeremy! I was responding to another member who suggested the opposite (that lockers can be added later) -- technically yes, but practically it makes way more sense to get them from Ineos.

Great post overall - I agree with what you wrote!

I kind of like the idea of filling up my adventure vehicle from the bleach jugs at the side of the road of questionable quality; my bike is designed as such and will dynamically adjust it's map to run on very low octane fuel. I'm nervous about what appears to be the hard limit at 87 and would be curious how the fuel mapping accounts for degraded octane conditions which can happen in remote travel -- just because it says 87 on the pump doesn't mean 87 comes out!


The original vision for the Gren - which many of us long-term reservation holders bought into years ago - was a "no nonsense, capable, robust 4x4 for the world". Every other manufacturer who used to occupy this space was going upmarket - the Land Rover Defender has more computers than Google HQ and has interior finishings that are supposed to match a person's Louis Vutton (sp?) luggage. The Land Cruiser has bloated to a leather-seated, infotainment flagship SUV, not a rough and ready 4x4. The Ineos was supposed to be the spiritual successor to the Land Rover Defender/Series -- they can roll up outside the shops in Chelsea, but they're right at home in the mud on the farm. Luxury wasn't supposed to be a part of it.

And I do think the vehicle is close to that vision from a technical perspective, in terms of balancing a fix-it-with-bailing-wire ethos with some compromises to modernity for regulatory requirements. So, definitely not a luxury vehicle.

Market-wise, in Canada, they are 40% higher than they should be, and that "should be" on my math still allows them to still be the most expensive 4x4 on the market to honour that technical prowess. So, I expected them to be more expensive than the competition.... but not 40% more expensive.

It does seem more reasonable in terms of pricing in the USA -- pricey, but not too far outside the realm of what I expected. In Canada....oof. And that may be driving part of this conversation - the pricing in the USA is a good bit more "fair" for what you get than it is in Canada, but since both got announced today we're talking about both in this thread.




I saw someone already answered, but just some more context for our community about our fearless leader Mr. Stu-Barnes - He's just a regular enthusiast like the rest of us who generously donates his time and resources to create this community for the rest of us, with the hope of making a single repository for community-driven information from the Grenadier. Lots of "Sweat equity" has been put into making these convos accessible by Stu, and I think we all owe him a nod of thanks for setting this community up. Given it's all out of pocket for him, there is an opportunity to donate to keep the lights on -- this resource is fantastic for owners (and future owners!) and it exists thanks to Stu!

Craig!
LOL to bleach jugs. And EXACTLY correct to fuel quality. Here in Oregon (and maybe NJ is the other state), we have no state agencies checking fuel quality, so we get shipped the crap gas. I bet our 87oct is more like 85oct. Many stories of popular-brand fuel stations selling 87oct as 89oct or 91 oct.
Agreed on many many thanks to @StuBarnes!!

 

[marko]

I'm at the how bad do I need Safari Windows stage

Depends where you live/use the vehicle I guess. I’m in UK and they bring a lot of light in which is lovely. However spent 7 years in TX and wouldn’t have specified them on the Gulf Coast as the glare (there’s no shade) and additional heat into the cabin would have been uncomfortable I think. Just my $0.02
It’s a great vehicle. Good luck with your decision.

 

[40man]

Ineos has told me in several conversations that if you were one of the original reservation holders - I reserved the day the reservation option was available, there would not be a dealer mark up - and the dealers had to honor the sticker pricing. After the first wave of deliveries for the US - its subject to what ever the dealers want to charge.

Nothing can prevent them from charging you $5,000 for window etching or $3,000 for scotchguard or $1,000 for farts instead of air in the tires.

 

[Norb-TX]

The thing is, we're right back where we started. I don't want to off road a $80K SUV, like the new Defender. So I don't want to offroad a new Grenadier either. Looks like a stripped down 4Runner or another Wrangler it is. Maybe.

 

[Norb-TX]

Nothing can prevent them from charging you $5,000 for window etching or $3,000 for scotchguard or $1,000 for farts instead of air in the tires.

Nothing can prevent us from just walking.

 

[Aurans]

Thinking about my decision to cancel today, the best analogy that comes to mind is that I took the leap on a $25 hamburger. On the higher side, sure, but made with all the best stuff. Does the chef know what he’s doing? I can’t say, but while some tables seem happy, others have strange looks on their faces. Are they enjoying their meals? Before my burger is served, I’m told that it’s now a $32 burger. Everything is the same, just inflation and all that. For $32, I can get a few delicious and cheap burgers. Same quality, no, but they might be even more satisfying because they’re inexpensive. Or, I could go to another restaurant and get a lot more for my money.

I don’t accept that “this is the way car prices are nowadays”. I bought a 5 series last summer and got a great deal. No, this is truck FOMO.

 

[AnD3rew]

It maybe a niche vehicle, but it still needs to sell a certain volume to be profitable for the company. And for the dealerships to be profitable. And at this price point, I don't think they can sell 25,000 of them worldwide (which is the number Sir Jim mentioned) on a consistent basis.

They will easily sell 25,000 worldwide when it’s up and running, Australia and Africa ( mostly South Africa) will buy plenty, they are price competitive with real competitors here. If they only sell say 3000 pa in each thats 6000, UK will sell their 6000 thats 12 rest of EU another 6000 thats 18 say another 3000 in the Middle East 21000 they only need to sell another 4000 in the US to make up the 25,000 and that doesn’t include the rest of Asia and they are going there. Of course I just made all those numbers up but they are totally reasonable. Than add the pickup version

 

[MileHigh]

And that's why this thing is kinda in no man's land at this price. Too expensive for the offroad crowd, not luxury enough for the resort crowd.

Never gonna happen. If the true believers here can't swallow hard and buy the car at today's price, do you really think that typical soccer-mom & dads are gonna pony up over sticker for an unknown brand with unknown reliability and no luxury? Mark my words, car will be discounted inside of 6 months. No one is buying these at over sticker, because if you can afford that, you want every butt massaging option you can fancy. At a minimum, you want your golf buddies at the country club to know what you drove. None of the IGs will go off road but bet my golf buddies don't either in any vehicle (FWIW, I don't play golf, just picking on golfers).

Oddly, if these doing that being a one year an out vehicle, they might appreciate like crazy like the 93 defender 110NAS…

 

[YellowLab]

Nothing can prevent them from charging you $5,000 for window etching or $3,000 for scotchguard or $1,000 for farts instead of air in the tires.

Are farts in tires an option? Can we specify what kind of farts? My Labrador farts even at highway speed in the tires would provide a great early warning feature to those sealed in the cart that a tire is leaking....

 

[Norb-TX]

Free at Costco btw.

 

[G-Tank]

Thinking about my decision to cancel today, the best analogy that comes to mind is that I took the leap on a $25 hamburger. On the higher side, sure, but made with all the best stuff. Does the chef know what he’s doing? I can’t say, but while some tables seem happy, others have strange looks on their faces. Are they enjoying their meals? Before my burger is served, I’m told that it’s now a $32 burger. Everything is the same, just inflation and all that. For $32, I can get a few delicious and cheap burgers. Same quality, no, but they might be even more satisfying because they’re inexpensive. Or, I could go to another restaurant and get a lot more for my money.

I don’t accept that “this is the way car prices are nowadays”. I bought a 5 series last summer and got a great deal. No, this is truck FOMO.

Rivian and Ford honored the initial reservation holders with the price. But in our case, it was just a ballpark number.

They will easily sell 25,000 worldwide when it’s up and running, Australia and Africa ( mostly South Africa) will buy plenty, they are price competitive with real competitors here. If they only sell say 3000 pa in each thats 6000, UK will sell their 6000 thats 12 rest of EU another 6000 thats 18 say another 3000 in the Middle East 21000 they only need to sell another 4000 in the US to make up the 25,000 and that doesn’t include the rest of Asia and they are going there. Of course I just made all those numbers up but they are totally reasonable. Than add the pickup version

Is Ineos limited to only 25,000 per year for that factory? (unable to produce more?)

 

[40man]

Free at Costco btw.

I always wondered why Costco smelled like farts.

 

[40man]

Are farts in tires an option? Can we specify what kind of farts? My Labrador farts even at highway speed in the tires would provide a great early warning feature to those sealed in the cart that a tire is leaking....

Your dog farting would likely set off the TPMS sensor warning system. I have 3 labs myself, and the farts are the biggest downside.

 

[40man]

Oddly, if these doing that being a one year an out vehicle, they might appreciate like crazy like the 93 defender 110NAS…

That is basically how I am justifying this purchase. Not any appreciation per se, but I could buy a used 90's 110 for the same price, and it will oil my concrete and not be nearly as good on the road.

I figure worst case scenario is I lose a bit if I decide to sell, but I'm guessing these will hold value fairly well. Unless the go out of business and there is no support, but I'm guessing Sir Jimmy has a bit too much pride to allow that to happen any time soon. And with what they are charging, he might add a few billion to his net worth.

 

[jeremy_matrix]

That is basically how I am justifying this purchase. Not any appreciation per se, but I could buy a used 90's 110 for the same price, and it will oil my concrete and not be nearly as good on the road.

I figure worst case scenario is I lose a bit if I decide to sell, but I'm guessing these will hold value fairly well. Unless the go out of business and there is no support, but I'm guessing Sir Jimmy has a bit too much pride to allow that to happen any time soon. And with what they are charging, he might add a few billion to his net worth.

'90's D110 (if it's truly legal) is SO far from the experience I had in the IG last week. Looks similar, but not a similar experience in the least.

 

[Sphinx]

Rivian and Ford honored the initial reservation holders with the price. But in our case, it was just a ballpark number.


Is Ineos limited to only 25,000 per year for that factory? (unable to produce more?)

I don't think there's any info one way or the other about factory capacity. However, I believe Sir Jim said they'd need to sell 25000 to be profitable. The current factory doesn't have a ton of capacity, given the video I've seen. Using the smart carts that they are currently using, they might be able to get to the 25000ish figure (roughly 100 cars per production day). Beyond that, they need a good ole overhead car manufacturing conveyor system. (I worked in a car factory for many years).

The Ineos EV will be built at Magna Steyer in Austria, not in France. So, I think that speaks to the limits of the French factory.