Fusilier On Hold???

[Tazzieman]

250-300,000 is a nice vision to have as a CEO, but I think that’s all it is, a vision.
Unless the Chinese buy Ineos - and please God let that not be the case.

They will have their clone within the year.
It will be great for offloading!

 

[NQ94]

I think a few people have lost perspective or, perhaps, are just completely unaware of the relatively small scale that Ineos Automotive currently operates.

Ineos bought a Smart car factory to build the Grenadier. As a reminder, Smart Car is the tiny, two seat, gas burner that hasn’t sold more than a few thousand units / year in North America in over a decade. Smart sold only 605 units in North America last year. Smart’s best year in the U.S. was just over 20,000 units way back in the early 2000’s. For perspective, that’s how many RAV4’s Toyota currently sells every two weeks in the U.S.

The point is; purchasing a Smart Car factory can hardly be considered diving in to the deep end. Ineos is, in no way, over extended here.

Under terms of the sale, Ineos is under contract to continue to build the Smart Car and some Mercedes components at the Hambach plant. Hambach is not even fully devoted to producing the Grenadier!

Unlike Jeep, Ford, GMC, Chevrolet, Toyota, Nissan, Honda, BMW, Mercedes, etc., Ineos doesn’t manufacture their own engines. Ineos also doesn’t manufacture their own frames. Ineos relies on over 100 vendors - all very highly regarded - to outfit the Grenadier.

For all intent and purposes, Ineos is an automotive design and assembly company - and a very small one at that. The vast majority of manufactured parts in our Grenadiers come from other companies.

And again, for the folks worried about sales volume. Ineos has not run a single ad for the Grenadier in North America. Not one.

Unfortunately, there are a few highly imaginative forum members that insist on posting obvious misinformation hinting at the future of Ineos Automotive. These folks simply lack the sophistication to discuss this issue with any authority. The information they are relaying is not credible.

I may be wrong but I was under the impression, the US, similar to the UK has an allocated number of 5 to 6k/pa Grenadiers imported because of regulations around emissions and no way of Grenadier being able to offset them with other vehicles in the Ineos line up before extra taxes are imposed on each new vehicle. A country as populated as the US and having the world's largest private SUV/truck market, it would not be too difficult to sell such a small quantity of cars with only word of mouth and a few influencer videos.

 

[CrazyOldMan]

I may be wrong but I was under the impression, the US, similar to the UK has an allocated number of 5 to 6k/pa Grenadiers imported because of regulations around emissions and no way of Grenadier being able to offset them with other vehicles in the Ineos line up before extra taxes are imposed on each new vehicle. A country as populated as the US and having the world's largest private SUV/truck market, it would not be too difficult to sell such a small quantity of cars with only word of mouth and a few influencer videos.

I don’t think that’s correct - the import limit is only a tariff question on Quartermasters, and commercial specs. 25%. I don’t think there’s any quantity consideration. But this would solidify a case for US manufacturing (actually US/Canada/Mexico - the NAFTA countries). The largest manufacturing plant in the world for BMW is in South Carolina.

 

[CrazyOldMan]

In my honest opinion...It is sometimes hard not to believe everything you think...but practice makes perfect

Alice laughed. 'There's no use trying,' she said. 'One can't believe impossible things.'

I daresay you haven't had much practice,' said the Queen. 'When I was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.

 

[CrazyOldMan]

Interesting comment from Lyn Calder.
4 production lines and 250,000 - 300,000 per year
View attachment 7862738

Well zero chance they are going to do that with the Grenadier and Quartermaster - at least unless they drop it $20k (Im sure that won’t happen on such a robust build). So then they would have to come up with a baby model that is more a town car / daily driver.

 

[Aussie Battler]

The electrical infrastructure is also a major problem.
This sort of stuff wouldn't be allowed for any other reason as it would be a tripping hazard in a public place.
In Australia due to the extreme distances and limited population electricity distribution is expensive and limited.
I read at one location it would take 33 hours to charge a vehicle from 10 % to 90% due to restrictions.


View attachment 7862178View attachment 7862180View attachment 7862179View attachment 7862181View attachment 7862183View attachment 7862182

That is true ,take Darwin for example ,it is operating at nearly peak out put now with virtualy any reserve and no plans to extend the existing gas fired power station . Renewable energy is not a viable option as wind farms tend to blow away in cyclones as do solar panels . How much longer are we going to march along like lemmings before somebody in charge realises that evs are an option but not a solution ?

 

[DaveB]

That is true ,take Darwin for example ,it is operating at nearly peak out put now with virtualy any reserve and no plans to extend the existing gas fired power station . Renewable energy is not a viable option as wind farms tend to blow away in cyclones as do solar panels . How much longer are we going to march along like lemmings before somebody in charge realises that evs are an option but not a solution ?

Unfortunately most of the politicians and lobbyists making these decisions are as dumb as dogshit or at the very least uninformed or unqualified to make them.
Here is an old example of one discussing the future of our Submarine fleet.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYF08jJi9Hg

 

[Max]

Well zero chance they are going to do that with the Grenadier and Quartermaster - at least unless they drop it $20k (Im sure that won’t happen on such a robust build). So then they would have to come up with a baby model that is more a town car / daily driver.

It might be one of the impossible things Lyn thought of before breakfast...but she has an out she didn't say what year

 

[grenadierguy]

I don’t think that’s correct - the import limit is only a tariff question on Quartermasters, and commercial specs. 25%. I don’t think there’s any quantity consideration. But this would solidify a case for US manufacturing (actually US/Canada/Mexico - the NAFTA countries). The largest manufacturing plant in the world for BMW is in South Carolina.

The previous comment was correct… yours is incorrect. It has to do with CAFE (corporate average fuel economy) standards. If Ineos can’t bring in a vehicle with higher mpg they are limited to number imported due to cafe standards… it’s all about the combined mpg for the whole offering of vehicles. So an electric or hybrid would allow them to increase the number imported whether it be more Grenadiers or another offering to the market.

 

[landmannnn]

That is true ,take Darwin for example ,it is operating at nearly peak out put now with virtualy any reserve and no plans to extend the existing gas fired power station . Renewable energy is not a viable option as wind farms tend to blow away in cyclones as do solar panels . How much longer are we going to march along like lemmings before somebody in charge realises that evs are an option but not a solution ?

However, other countries have invested in renewables and don't rely on burning coal to produce electricity.
Just recently, Spanish electricity prices went negative due to excess renewable electricity production.

 

[Jean Mercier]

There is only one, but the Smart will be discontinued at the Hambach factory

I quote myself here, but I got a link confirming that the production of the Smart already has stopped at Hambach:

smart fortwo production ended in Hambach - smart EMOTION

After more than 26 years, the fortwo production in Hambach is over, today the last smartEQfortwo was built. Production ends today with a fully electric smart fortwo convertible and the factory in Hambach will return to the Stone Age with the production of a combustion engine powered car. The...

www.smart-emotion.de

 

[Tom D]

I think this decision reflects the downturn in the EV market and is sadly eminently sensible. EV’s are not selling as well as was hoped. Second hand values are terrible and it seems that market forces (ie buyers) are against EV’s. Toyota have recently said that they are maintaining ICE production and not putting as much R&D into EV’s , I think it’s probably a sensible move by Sir Jim. Maybe they’ll re-work it as a hybrid. That might work well.

 

[Max]

I think it’s probably a sensible move by Sir Jim. Maybe they’ll re-work it as a hybrid. That might work well.

Moritz Leicht who wrote the article said, back to the Stone Age with Ineos producing ICE vehicles.
Companies have been digging up the Stones for Ages to produce the batteries and not so long ago...

Flynn Gold seeks to purchase 2 gold and battery metals projects on ‘highly prospective’ ground in Tasmania...brilliant...what's happening Bob?​

I hope the hybrid wins with fuel rising so much we must be closer to hydrogen being viable

 

[bemax]

One step back to the original topic:
Am I wrong if I am skeptical about the idea that INEOS wanted to build an "own" electric vehicle?
I always thought that they wanted it to be build by Magna, because the Fiskar Ocean is build there as well.
I had the imagination that the Fusilier would be based on the Oceans platform.

Any idea if this might be more than speculation?

 

[bigleonski]

I think this decision reflects the downturn in the EV market and is sadly eminently sensible. EV’s are not selling as well as was hoped. Second hand values are terrible and it seems that market forces (ie buyers) are against EV’s. Toyota have recently said that they are maintaining ICE production and not putting as much R&D into EV’s , I think it’s probably a sensible move by Sir Jim. Maybe they’ll re-work it as a hybrid. That might work well.

I disagree that the downturn is the reason, although it is probably part of it.
I believe they have come to the clear understanding that the Chinese have decided they want to completely dominate the EV market, and will (and are) offer their product at a discount to cost (supported by the government) for as long as it takes to achieve this. That is a market no sane and fiscally responsible business should be involved in, let alone enter as Ineos planned to. There are 50 reasons China has entered this race, and none that Ineos should in the face of that.

Any bets that China will release their version (or correctly their copy) of the fusilier at the same time as they release their EV version of the grenadier?

 

[CrazyOldMan]

The previous comment was correct… yours is incorrect. It has to do with CAFE (corporate average fuel economy) standards. If Ineos can’t bring in a vehicle with higher mpg they are limited to number imported due to cafe standards… it’s all about the combined mpg for the whole offering of vehicles. So an electric or hybrid would allow them to increase the number imported whether it be more Grenadiers or another offering to the market.

I haven’t done a deep dive in the Federal Register on CAFE standards, but I was unaware that there were import quotas on non-compliant vehicles. I thought there was a penalty for fleet averages over the target, and then a temporary allowance to avoid penalties for specialized manufacturers and light trucks.

 

[255/85]

I disagree that the downturn is the reason, although it is probably part of it.
I believe they have come to the clear understanding that the Chinese have decided they want to completely dominate the EV market, and will (and are) offer their product at a discount to cost (supported by the government) for as long as it takes to achieve this. That is a market no sane and fiscally responsible business should be involved in, let alone enter as Ineos planned to. There are 50 reasons China has entered this race, and none that Ineos should in the face of that.

This has been an odd dynamic for decades with competitive East/West manufacturing. Anyone remember the glut of low-cost electronics from Japan in the 1960s? Then it was Korea as a source of cheap goods followed by Taiwan, the Philippines, India (and Pakistan), and now China. I'm not being the least bit xenophobic here. The reasons are undeniably rooted in the transgressions of the West and therefore completely understandable. I just don't think China's heavily subsidized auto industry is sudden news to Ineos. There's some other (or many other) reason why they formally announced production of the Fusilier and just as quickly moth-balled it.

Your point is interesting if viewed as a general competition question though. Why should Ineos bother making a mid-sized electric SUV with such stiff competition? Product development, building a manufacturing facility, advertising, etc are all a huge bother if their heart isn't in it. I see acquisition as much more Ineos' style. Purchasing outright an existing brand eliminates the logistical headache and has the benefit of known - or easily projected - sales numbers to offset increased Grenadier production. I wonder what BEV manufacturer is suddenly up for sale?

It will be very interesting to revisit this thread in a year. The world is in a rickety place. Anything and much might/can happen.

Ah, but anything we Yanks have said we'll deny later!

 

[CrazyOldMan]

This has been an odd dynamic for decades with competitive East/West manufacturing. Anyone remember the glut of low-cost electronics from Japan in the 1960s? Then it was Korea as a source of cheap goods followed by Taiwan, the Philippines, India (and Pakistan), and now China. I'm not being the least bit xenophobic here. The reasons are undeniably rooted in the transgressions of the West and therefore completely understandable. I just don't think China's heavily subsidized auto industry is sudden news to Ineos. There's some other (or many other) reason why they formally announced production of the Fusilier and just as quickly moth-balled it.

Your point is interesting if viewed as a general competition question though. Why should Ineos bother making a mid-sized electric SUV with such stiff competition? Product development, building a manufacturing facility, advertising, etc are all a huge bother if their heart isn't in it. I see acquisition as much more Ineos' style. Purchasing outright an existing brand eliminates the logistical headache and has the benefit of known - or easily projected - sales numbers to offset increased Grenadier production. I wonder what BEV manufacturer is suddenly up for sale?



Ah, but anything we Yanks have said we'll deny later!

Ok, total drunken speculation - what if IBM DID approach them, and they do a JV in South Carolina with a hybrid??? Just like dumping Wales with a sweetheart deal in Hambach, wouldn’t you dump MS in Graz and go hybrid for a high-volume (well, high-ER) smaller format option? Again, zero basis in fact, but I never let details like facts get in my way.

 

[holdmybeer]

Why should Ineos bother making a mid-sized electric SUV with such stiff competition?

This. Why bother? The Grenadier is a midsized SUV with live axles and a stout frame that you drive and treat like a truck … it has relatively few peers. But little electric SUVs that drive like well behaved cars are already or will soon be dime-a-dozen. IA should drop the Fusilier and focus on unique vehicles IMO.

 

[CrazyOldMan]

This. Why bother? The Grenadier is a midsized SUV with live axles and a stout frame that you drive and treat like a truck … it has relatively few peers. But little electric SUVs that drive like well behaved cars are already or will soon be dime-a-dozen. IA should drop the Fusilier and focus on unique vehicles IMO.

And the CAFE quotas?