Ineos signals worrying strategies

[Krabby]

One potential concern for the NA market - should IA decided to sort of split into two divisions lines (not exactly, but think LR & RR in the late 90s), NA would likely miss out on any "tradesmen" type trim. We can't get a commercial/2-sets/panel side IG as it is.

 

[DaveB]

Comfort is my biggest gripe... it's not as enjoyable after 200kms in a single run as any other car I've owned. Aside from that it is damn near awesome...

I just drove 3,200 kms in 6 days over some pretty ordinary roads (highway 1 ) and for me it was excellent.
No sore back, legs or arse.
I did two stints of 710 kms on day one and day 6 with 3 short stops each day
My seat is wound up to maximum height, and I had cruise control on for most of the way, so I was able to tuck my legs up in comfort.
Arm rest was perfect.
View out was great and particularly view ahead.
I have owned many vehicles with softer or dynamic/active suspension but all had low profile tyres which crashed across holes.

 

[anand]

Comfort is my biggest gripe... it's not as enjoyable after 200kms in a single run as any other car I've owned. Aside from that it is damn near awesome...

Interesting... multiple 15+ hour days in the driver's seat driving across the country and back and I think I felt more refreshed than anything I've driven in years

 

[DaveB]

Interesting... multiple 15+ hour days in the driver's seat driving across the country and back and I think I felt more refreshed than anything I've driven in years

I think the drivers shape, height and preferred seating option plays a big part.
We also have the foot rest potential issue for taller drivers in Australia (RHD countries).
Also if you are in the habit of wearing heavy, thick soled boots it can be a problem.
I wear barefoot shoes/boots so not an issue and am only 5'10" tall.
I still see people who have the seat wound back and low down like a sports car, they seem to always have a problem with the Grenadier.
A couple of months ago I ran into one of the owners in Brisbane who was complaining about the seat.
I adjusted his seat to my position and he said it was strange, like driving a bus, but after a week he said he loved it.

 

[anand]

A couple of months ago I ran into one of the owners in Brisbane who was complaining about the seat.
I adjusted his seat to my position and he said it was strange, like driving a bus, but after a week he said he loved it.

I'm right at 6' and 110kg, so I'm not a little person at all... I have the seat all the way down and fairly upright-ish; I can still easily see the corners of the wings and my arm rests happily on the door sill

 

[holdmybeer]

i agree. It inherits that from the original defender in a way that the new defender does not.

If there’s a “soul” or heritage still anywhere within JLR/Tata then I bet that statement is recognized as true and it stings.

Meanwhile, financially, Ineos Automotive is not a threat at all with their projected volumes, and I bet probably rarely thought of at the board or C-level.

 

[bikesandguitars]

Whichever way it goes, I feel the Grenadier has been a solid investment that will hold its value as well as any other.

If Ineos expands production, I’ll bet these first editions more than retain their value. If Ineos pulls back and pursues more extravagant builds, we’re definitely covered.
If Ineos ceases production, we will have somewhat rare, collectors items that can be serviced using stock BMW, ZF, Carraro, Eibach, etc.,
They really should last twenty years or more as a daily. Their rarity will definitely make them a soccer mom, or mountain bike dad, flex.

I’ve owned a lot of higher end cars - nothing too exotic - but several Lexus, BMW, Range Rover, Mercedes, Porsche variants. From a quality standpoint, the Grenadier very easily feels at home amongst the competition. As for the off-road competition of Jeep Rubicons and Bronco Wildtraks - the Grenadier completely outclasses those, as it should given its price point.

 

[anand]

THREE cancelled - FFS! No wonder they are littering lots.

There was a person stateside that ordered between 6-9 (I've heard varying numbers from people at different levels of the process) from different dealers, in similar but not quite the same spec, and walked on every single one of them

 

[Krabby]

That’s the downside to the fully refundable deposit (and a low one at that).

 

[parb]

I think it is smart business strategy to create multiple revenue streams and target multiple types of buyers. It lowers risk and allows for streams to fund the mission and vision in a sustainable way. For me, making sure Ineos is going to be a sustainable brand whilst holding on to the original core mission is awesome!

I agree with this but brand promise is a real thing and any business owner thinks long and hard about what promises a brand makes to its customers.

It's incredibly hard to deliver a capable overlanding brand promise that also is a luxury high $$$ brand. Even the AMG/MB brand split struggled with this forcing Mercedes to move it's entire g class solidly into the luxury category after trying to thread that needle between utility and luxury for years.

Of all business strategies available for brand extension available to Ineos I think the hardest is to make a trim like arcane works help them reach a new buyer and creating a new brand promise and extracting Bentley type of dollars.

I also don't think that Ineos the company nor it's executive leadership have faced these types of questions before.

As I said it worries me. I worry that in the end it becomes another shopping mall crawler SUV that competes with the Porsche cayenne or the Bentayga because that's where the dollars are. I don't really identify with that buyer group and I really identify with the Ineos brand promise of rugged capability that has been told to me over the past few years as I followed along in development.

Final point. I wish to thank everyone for the civilized discussion. I enjoy hearing all of your viewpoints.

 

[Shopkeep]

I agree with this but brand promise is a real thing and any business owner thinks long and hard about what promises a brand makes to its customers.

It's incredibly hard to deliver a capable overlanding brand promise that also is a luxury high $$$ brand. Even the AMG/MB brand split struggled with this forcing Mercedes to move it's entire g class solidly into the luxury category after trying to thread that needle between utility and luxury for years.

Of all business strategies available for brand extension available to Ineos I think the hardest is to make a trim like arcane works help them reach a new buyer and creating a new brand promise and extracting Bentley type of dollars.

I also don't think that Ineos the company nor it's executive leadership have faced these types of questions before.

As I said it worries me. I worry that in the end it becomes another shopping mall crawler SUV that competes with the Porsche cayenne or the Bentayga because that's where the dollars are. I don't really identify with that buyer group and I really identify with the Ineos brand promise of rugged capability that has been told to me over the past few years as I followed along in development.

Is Arcane Works pitching to that market? To me it’s aimed more at the old money UK landed gentry stale pale male release the hounds type rather than the new world new money market. It’s more a Saville Row 3 piece than a Dolce & Gabbana tracksuit.

 

[parb]

Is Arcane Works pitching to that market? To me it’s aimed more at the old money UK landed gentry stale pale male release the hounds type rather than the new world new money market. It’s more a Saville Row 3 piece than a Dolce & Gabbana tracksuit.

I may very well apply too much of a US West Coast lens when I see arcane works than what it really is. Savile row and it's constituents is a long way home from me both culturally and geographically. Given that ineos stated that the US was the most important market for them I didn't think I was too far off, but maybe I am?

I assumed that ineos was aiming for the true luxury stuff and that the early tests with color and material was just a quick win until they got their processes sorted for taking the brand upmarket. But maybe it's just color and materials for the long haul in which case I struggle with seeing how they compete for luxury dollars.

I mean in that case they are basically competing with a $10k car wrap and the catskinz type of customizers...? The type of customizations that the MTV show pimp my ride did a decade ago. Hardly much of an upmarket.

 

[Shopkeep]

I may very well apply too much of a US West Coast lens when I see arcane works than what it really is. Savile row and it's constituents is a long way home from me both culturally and geographically. Given that ineos stated that the US was the most important market for them I didn't think I was too far off, but maybe I am?

I assumed that ineos was aiming for the true luxury stuff and that the early tests with color and material was just a quick win until they got their processes sorted for taking the brand upmarket. But maybe it's just color and materials for the long haul in which case I struggle with seeing how they compete for luxury dollars.

I mean in that case they are basically competing with a $10k car wrap and the catskinz type of customizers...? The type of customizations that the MTV show pimp my ride did a decade ago. Hardly much of an upmarket.

I think you will need some level of buy in to the original concept to spend big dollars on a Grenadier and be satisfied. It’s an idiosyncratic vehicle that will still be quirky no matter what material the roof liner is made of, not sure the ultra wealthy new money market will tolerate things like the lack of tech, RHD footrest and the steering. As they say in the classics you can put lipstick on a pig but it’s still a pig; guess I am saying you have to be into pigs in the first place to drop big dollars on this one.

 

[parb]

Isn't that what they said about the g class and look at where we're at now?

 

[bigleonski]

Comfort is my biggest gripe... it's not as enjoyable after 200kms in a single run as any other car I've owned. Aside from that it is damn near awesome...

Apart from my arse needing a wider recaro, I feel better after 6-8 hours driving in the Grenadier than either of my previous 4 toyotas. I reckon in terms of long distance touring comfort it eats any of those - Landcruiser or Prado.

 

[Shopkeep]

Isn't that what they said about the g class and look at where we're at now?

It will be interesting to see what the Grenadier morphs in to over time. While Uncle Jim has some serious coin and current interest in this project not sure it’s to the same level and commitment as Daimler.

 

[Tazzieman]

What works for Porsche...
"
Porsche’s model line-up is already full of special editions and various derivatives, but the brand’s design head says there is always room for more.
Pointing towards the enviable problem of having too many buyers for its limited-production specials, Porsche Head of Design Michael Mauer said: “I personally don’t think [you can have too many]. The market as well [has] shown whenever we go out with a limited edition we have more customers than cars".
“It still seems to work. And it is, as well in other industries, you see that limited editions have always certain attractiveness to customers.”
“It seems to be linked to the evolution of mankind that whenever you create the impression that something is limited, the desire to have it seems to grow,” said Mauer."

https://www.drive.com.au/news/porsches-no-limit-to-special-editions/

 

[parb]

I'd be fine with special editions. There is a segment for it and I like the idea of the company exploring new values with special editions. I don't equate that with upmarket but if that's what they are thinking then that's fine with me.
I'd like to see what an African edition looks like, or a polar explorer edition.

I have a handful of special edition watches. Some of them very expensive, but they had something that appealed to me in a way that the mainstream watch didn't and the extra 20-30% was worth it to me.

My buddies who have Lamborghini's love their personalized plaques from the factory "built for Mr XYZ by supervisor engineer XYZ on date ..."

 

[DaveB]

Yes, continuation of a basic Tradesman edition with a profitable-enough base of long term service customers would be nice to see. It could keep a lid on ridiculous parts and service pricing for those of us (like me) who care.

You obviously have different tradesmen to us.
Our traddies spend $150K - $300K on their 4wds.

 

[holdmybeer]

You obviously have different tradesmen to us.
Our traddies spend $150K - $300K on their 4wds.

That's wild. In North America, the "tradesman edition" of a truck or van implies entry level of trim. i.e. the cheapest edition, ready for customizing or hard use, so carpets, headliners, upholstery, sound systems, sound proofing, wheels, etc. are very basic.