Fusilier On Hold???

TD5-90 · Jul 4, 2024

trobex said:
..... haha to them for buying 1st generation junk in the first place.

Now _that_'s what I call humour ;-)

bikesandguitars · Jul 7, 2024

I assume that everyone is aware of the U.S. car culture. Americans will plan vacations with 700+ mile drives each way, no problem. There’s a well documented shortage of EV charging stations in far reaching rural areas in the States. Because of this, the majority of EV’s in the U.S. are second (or third) cars for well off families.

If Ineos is hoping to capture U.S. market share, EV’s would be the toughest in-road. Meanwhile, Toyota can’t keep gas-hybrid’s in stock…

MRO · Jul 7, 2024

I suspect the reason is that the Grenadier and QM are not selling anywhere near the volumes forecast and, therefore, the financial picture is a long way from where they had hoped.

If the first models are not meeting forecast then it would be hard to sanction further models.

While I do love mine, my advice would be to resolve the issues with the initial model. Quality (no issues with mine). Design (RHD driver footrest, low quality spec of things like wipers and internal plastics) and expand options (I would suggest an independent front suspension/ rack and pinion steering option like LC100, as well as a BMW V8 option/hybrid on existing engine). Ie launch an up market G wagon rival at the same time as resolving some basic issues. Most of the basic engineering is sunk cost and these modifications shouldn't require material further cost v a new model.

It is a great vehicle and these investments would increase the addressable market and increase average selling prices.

They need to get the brand building model right before launching others. Echoing what many others have said here.

landmannnn · Jul 7, 2024

MRO said:
I suspect the reason is that the Grenadier and QM are not selling anywhere near the volumes forecast and, therefore, the financial picture is a long way from where they had hoped.

If the first models are not meeting forecast then it would be hard to sanction further models.

While I do love mine, my advice would be to resolve the issues with the initial model. Quality (no issues with mine). Design (RHD driver footrest, low quality spec of things like wipers and internal plastics) and expand options (I would suggest an independent front suspension/ rack and pinion steering option like LC100, as well as a BMW V8 option/hybrid on existing engine). Ie launch an up market G wagon rival at the same time as resolving some basic issues. Most of the basic engineering is sunk cost and these modifications shouldn't require material further cost v a new model.

It is a great vehicle and these investments would increase the addressable market and increase average selling prices.

They need to get the brand building model right before launching others. Echoing what many others have said here.

Don't forget, there is a hard cap for us UK people. 6,000 units per year unless a low emission vehicle can be added to the range.

bikesandguitars · Jul 7, 2024

MRO said:
I suspect the reason is that the Grenadier and QM are not selling anywhere near the volumes forecast and, therefore, the financial picture is a long way from where they had hoped.

If the first models are not meeting forecast then it would be hard to sanction further models.

While I do love mine, my advice would be to resolve the issues with the initial model. Quality (no issues with mine). Design (RHD driver footrest, low quality spec of things like wipers and internal plastics) and expand options (I would suggest an independent front suspension/ rack and pinion steering option like LC100, as well as a BMW V8 option/hybrid on existing engine). Ie launch an up market G wagon rival at the same time as resolving some basic issues. Most of the basic engineering is sunk cost and these modifications shouldn't require material further cost v a new model.

It is a great vehicle and these investments would increase the addressable market and increase average selling prices.

They need to get the brand building model right before launching others. Echoing what many others have said here.sales goal.

I’m not sure where you’re getting your information but it’s well publicized that Ineos hit their 2024 sales goals with the Grenadier. Keep in mind that, in the U.S. at least, the company hasn’t run a single ad yet - not one single ad. I don’t think they’re panicking about Grenadier orders at IA corporate just yet.

As for the Quartermaster, how have you determined that they’re not selling well? They’re not even in wide release in most markets. Can you cite some automotive sales data to back up your claims? If not, then please consider that the rest of your post is most likely based on a wholly incorrect assumption.

As for the suggestion to abandon the basic design tenets for IFS and rack and pinion steering - that would be a HARD NO from the dedicated 4x4 crowd. The Grenadier was not intended to compete with a minivan or even a LC100. Its purpose designed to be a no frills, reliable off-roader first and foremost. It lacks cup holders and rear seat TV screens for a reason. The lack of cup holders wasn’t an oversight. You seem to be under some wrong headed illusion that the Grenadier is a luxury vehicle or a soccer mom flex. It’s not and it wasn’t supposed to be.

Regarding the “low quality spec of things”, I strongly disagree. (If you don’t like the wipers, it’s a $30 investment to swap them out.). My wipers work great. Come to think of it, I’ve never seen an automotive review, for any vehicle, mention the quality of the wipers. What is wrong with the wipers?

I find the quality of the plastic bits, switches, knobs, the fit and finish, etc., to be as good or better than my 2022 Tundra, 2007 LX470, 2022 Bronco (by a long shot!!!) The weight of the vehicle alone depicts the quality of the build. Have you opened and closed the door on a Grenadier? There is nothing low-quality-spec about it.

I’m very curious on how you obtained your Quarter Master sales information. Can you please cite some reliable sales data for the Quartermaster?

bikesandguitars · Jul 7, 2024

landmannnn said:
Don't forget, there is a hard cap for us UK people. 6,000 units per year unless a low emission vehicle can be added to the range.

That’s great info. Is there a time limit given? How many years is a manufacturer allowed to gear up?

CrazyOldMan · Jul 8, 2024

MRO said:
I suspect the reason is that the Grenadier and QM are not selling anywhere near the volumes forecast and, therefore, the financial picture is a long way from where they had hoped.

If the first models are not meeting forecast then it would be hard to sanction further models.

While I do love mine, my advice would be to resolve the issues with the initial model. Quality (no issues with mine). Design (RHD driver footrest, low quality spec of things like wipers and internal plastics) and expand options (I would suggest an independent front suspension/ rack and pinion steering option like LC100, as well as a BMW V8 option/hybrid on existing engine). Ie launch an up market G wagon rival at the same time as resolving some basic issues. Most of the basic engineering is sunk cost and these modifications shouldn't require material further cost v a new model.

It is a great vehicle and these investments would increase the addressable market and increase average selling prices.

They need to get the brand building model right before launching others. Echoing what many others have said here.

I haven’t seen sales stats - have you? Is there info you can share? I think it’s always supposed to be modest volume - Ineos said something like 30k units, globally. I don’t think they need to do anything crazy to hit those numbers, and doubt they would abandon the core tenets of the projects just to grab share. That’s not their goal.

DaveB · Jul 8, 2024

Interesting comment from Lyn Calder.
4 production lines and 250,000 - 300,000 per year

Max · Jul 8, 2024

MRO said:
I suspect the reason is that the Grenadier and QM are not selling anywhere near the volumes forecast and, therefore, the financial picture is a long way from where they had hoped.

If the first models are not meeting forecast then it would be hard to sanction further models.

While I do love mine, my advice would be to resolve the issues with the initial model. Quality (no issues with mine). Design (RHD driver footrest, low quality spec of things like wipers and internal plastics) and expand options (I would suggest an independent front suspension/ rack and pinion steering option like LC100, as well as a BMW V8 option/hybrid on existing engine). Ie launch an up market G wagon rival at the same time as resolving some basic issues. Most of the basic engineering is sunk cost and these modifications shouldn't require material further cost v a new model.

It is a great vehicle and these investments would increase the addressable market and increase average selling prices.

They need to get the brand building model right before launching others. Echoing what many others have said here.

In my honest opinion...It is sometimes hard not to believe everything you think...but practice makes perfect

DaveB · Jul 8, 2024

bikesandguitars said:
That’s great info. Is there a time limit given? How many years is a manufacturer allowed to gear up?

They are not manufacturing in the UK so the restriction is based on imports.

DaveB · Jul 8, 2024

CrazyOldMan said:
I haven’t seen sales stats - have you? Is there info you can share? I think it’s always supposed to be modest volume - Ineos said something like 30k units, globally. I don’t think they need to do anything crazy to hit those numbers, and doubt they would abandon the core tenets of the projects just to grab share. That’s not their goal.

Lyn Calder is talking about 4 product lines, there is only one line in the existing factory.
As commented elsewhere, they definitely need a production line in North America (Mexico??), that can make US spec versions to meet US market requirements.
Probably Dana axles and maybe a US spec engine
I can also see them having a factory in Asia somewhere, probably China.
China don't do offroading so it will be more prestige factor.
They may even end up doing a small UK manufacturing line, to get over the import limits and capitalise on the Landrover nostalgia.
Maybe build the 90 series there or focus on the work or utility vehicle segment.

Tazzieman · Jul 8, 2024

It will be very interesting to revisit this thread in a year. The world is in a rickety place. Anything and much might/can happen.

bikesandguitars · Jul 8, 2024

I think a few people have lost perspective or, perhaps, are just completely unaware of the relatively small scale that Ineos Automotive currently operates.

Ineos bought a Smart car factory to build the Grenadier. As a reminder, Smart Car is the tiny, two seat, gas burner that hasn’t sold more than a few thousand units / year in North America in over a decade. Smart sold only 605 units in North America last year. Smart’s best year in the U.S. was just over 20,000 units way back in the early 2000’s. For perspective, that’s how many RAV4’s Toyota currently sells every two weeks in the U.S.

The point is; purchasing a Smart Car factory can hardly be considered diving in to the deep end. Ineos is, in no way, over extended here.

Under terms of the sale, Ineos is under contract to continue to build the Smart Car and some Mercedes components at the Hambach plant. Hambach is not even fully devoted to producing the Grenadier!

Unlike Jeep, Ford, GMC, Chevrolet, Toyota, Nissan, Honda, BMW, Mercedes, etc., Ineos doesn’t manufacture their own engines. Ineos also doesn’t manufacture their own frames. Ineos relies on over 100 vendors - all very highly regarded - to outfit the Grenadier.

For all intent and purposes, Ineos is an automotive design and assembly company - and a very small one at that. The vast majority of manufactured parts in our Grenadiers come from other companies.

And again, for the folks worried about sales volume. Ineos has not run a single ad for the Grenadier in North America. Not one.

Unfortunately, there are a few highly imaginative forum members that insist on posting obvious misinformation hinting at the future of Ineos Automotive. These folks simply lack the sophistication to discuss this issue with any authority. The information they are relaying is not credible.

DaveB · Jul 8, 2024

bikesandguitars said:
I think a few people have lost perspective or, perhaps, are just completely unaware of the relatively small scale that Ineos Automotive currently operates.

Ineos bought a Smart car factory to build the Grenadier. As a reminder, Smart Car is the tiny, two seat, gas burner that hasn’t sold more than a few thousand units / year in North America in over a decade. Smart sold only 605 units in North America last year. Smart’s best year in the U.S. was just over 20,000 units way back in the early 2000’s. For perspective, that’s how many RAV4’s Toyota currently sells every two weeks in the U.S.

The point is; purchasing a Smart Car factory can hardly be considered diving in to the deep end. Ineos is, in no way, over extended here.

Under terms of the sale, Ineos is under contract to continue to build the Smart Car and some Mercedes components at the Hambach plant. Hambach is not even fully devoted to producing the Grenadier!

Unlike Jeep, Ford, GMC, Chevrolet, Toyota, Nissan, Honda, BMW, Mercedes, etc., Ineos doesn’t manufacture their own engines. Ineos also doesn’t manufacture their own frames. Ineos relies on over 100 vendors - all very highly regarded - to outfit the Grenadier.

For all intent and purposes, Ineos is an automotive design and assembly company - and a very small one at that. The vast majority of manufactured parts in our Grenadiers come from other companies.

And again, for the folks worried about sales volume. Ineos has not run a single ad for the Grenadier in North America. Not one.

Unfortunately, there are a few highly imaginative forum members that insist on posting obvious misinformation hinting at the future of Ineos Automotive. These folks simply lack the sophistication to discuss this issue with any authority. The information they are relaying is not credible.

I was under the impression that the only thing Ineos manufactures is the vehicle itself, or more correctly assembles it.

Max · Jul 8, 2024

Fusilier On Hold???

It's pure speculation on my part...but I wouldn't be in a hurry to produce a fully electric vehicle without a Chinese partner.

But what I see can or might happen is happening in my opinion...Chinese companies have been producing most of the world's throw-away white goods for many years and some in the past four years have been putting wheels on them in a big way. One of which was a refrigeration parts company Geely[funny that] in joint ventures or owning such brands Volvo Cars, Polestar, Proton, Smart and Lotus...not sure about MG...Elon our space captain is not quite in bed with China but Tesla is the only US company to ever have complete ownership of a manufacturing plant in China...but does ownership of technology and design matter in China? Surprise surprise Toyota and Nissan are in collaboration with Chinese Car manufacturing companies.

Whether it be at the end of the day full electric or hybrid, IMO I think weight will win in the off-road, industrial and agricultural market...bring on the Hydrogen Sir Jim...

OpenAirFan · Jul 8, 2024

I was informed by my Ineos representative that the BEV was canceled. Now I ordered a G580 edition one, which will be delivered to me in October. For me cancellation of an BEV is like the Brexit: Driven by fear, backward-looking, wrong in the long term.

landmannnn · Jul 8, 2024

DaveB said:
They are not manufacturing in the UK so the restriction is based on imports.

I thought it was based on emissions.

Jean Mercier · Jul 8, 2024

DaveB said:
Lyn Calder is talking about 4 product lines, there is only one line in the existing factory.

There is only one, but the Smart will be discontinued at the Hambach factory, and then they can start a second production line in Hambach.

That's what I was told when I visited the factory last year end of June.

bigleonski · Jul 8, 2024

250-300,000 is a nice vision to have as a CEO, but I think that’s all it is, a vision.
Unless the Chinese buy Ineos - and please God let that not be the case.

Logsplitter · Jul 8, 2024

The 6k limit in the U.K. is because Ineos are classed as a small scale producer and don’t have to achieve the average emissions standard across their range if they stay under that figure. I posted the figures somewhere a while ago but about 4300 commercial and 1700 station wagons per year. EU has similar restrictions I think 10k station wagons and 22k commercial. I’m not aware of any other countries having restrictions on sales.

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