Arcane Grenadier

255/85 · Jun 7, 2024

AWo said:
For more power, which the engine and gearbox can handle, a new transfer box might be needed.

AWo

Agreed. If power numbers increase they might have to go to a chain-driven design. There's just so much sheer force in a gear drive box with the consequence of excess heat. I can't see Ineos trying to make the current Tremec unit any bigger but maybe a larger dedicated radiator will suffice. Eliminating the center locking feature and relying on traction control will help too.

I'm not sure what the transmissions are really capable of. The B57 diesel models don't make all that much more torque than the petrol version and use the 8HP76. Perhaps there's not as much headroom to the 8HP51 as we'd like to think? If Ineos starts using the upcoming hybrid BMW engines and HP/Torque numbers jump substantially we'll know the answer by which transmission goes in behind them. Personally I wonder if the 8HP51 is marginal and was paired to the petrol model mainly for fuel economy. Lighter weight, less rotating mass, etc. Probably cheaper, too.

Zimm · Jun 7, 2024

DaveB said:
I must be psychic.
Back in March I posted this comment saying that I thought they would most likely introduce upmarket and specialist vehicles and here we go with Arcane.

View attachment 7859020

You predicted they would follow the same business model every other car manufacturer has followed since the invention of cars.

tell me you put your entire pension into nvidia 3 years ago, and I’ll tip a glass to ya.

Zimm · Jun 7, 2024

DaveB said:
Their largest market is the rest of the world.
As many car makers have decided, the US market may be large, but not necessarily attractive, due to US tastes and preferences.
Jeeps have been a dismal failure outside of the North American market for a reason.
I think the only way they will have any significant turnover in the US is to start building dedicated North American models in either US, Canada or Mexico.

Car makers don’t have the “US” market, and “The Rest Of The World” market. There are any number of regional markets for consumer tastes and legislative reasons. The US is their single largest target market.

Zimm · Jun 7, 2024

255/85 said:
Agreed. If power numbers increase they might have to go to a chain-driven design. There's just so much sheer force in a gear drive box with the consequence of excess heat. I can't see Ineos trying to make the current Tremec unit any bigger but maybe a larger dedicated radiator will suffice. Eliminating the center locking feature and relying on traction control will help too.

I'm not sure what the transmissions are really capable of. The B57 diesel models don't make all that much more torque than the petrol version and use the 8HP76. Perhaps there's not as much headroom to the 8HP51 as we'd like to think? If Ineos starts using the upcoming hybrid BMW engines and HP/Torque numbers jump substantially we'll know the answer by which transmission goes in behind them. Personally I wonder if the 8HP51 is marginal and was paired to the petrol model mainly for fuel economy. Lighter weight, less rotating mass, etc. Probably cheaper, too.

I don’t see any major drivetrain changes in the foreseeable future. They don’t have the volume. The good part is, the year one and year six rigs won’t be significantly different. It’s good for maintenance and good for resale.

DaveB · Jun 7, 2024

Zimm said:
Car makers don’t have the “US” market, and “The Rest Of The World” market. There are any number of regional markets for consumer tastes and legislative reasons. The US is their single largest target market.

Ineos Lyn Calder actually refers to it as North America and "Rest of the World" in interviews.
She says that the US currently has the largest sales, although unlike the direct sales model in most of the "Rest of the World" that have all been invoiced to customers, the North American sales have all gone to dealers.
Ineos also have different specifications for different regions as you say but if their CEO is using the term I am Ok with it.
BMW sell diesels to "the rest of the world" but not in the US.
Toyota decided not to sell Landcruiser's and 70 series vehicles into the US market
Once again as you point out it is and will be their single largest sales market.
Doesn't mean it will be their most profitable.

DaveB · Jun 7, 2024

255/85 said:
But below the price of a Mercedes. Ineos won't tread on a benefactor's toes. I'm sure they got a great deal on the Hambach plant and I bet it came with some caveats.

Until he came along Mercedes had decided to close the factory and couldn't find a buyer.
I believe he got it very cheap
I don't think Mercedes was in a very strong bargaining position.

DaveB · Jun 7, 2024

255/85 said:
Agreed. If power numbers increase they might have to go to a chain-driven design. There's just so much sheer force in a gear drive box with the consequence of excess heat. I can't see Ineos trying to make the current Tremec unit any bigger but maybe a larger dedicated radiator will suffice. Eliminating the center locking feature and relying on traction control will help too.

I'm not sure what the transmissions are really capable of. The B57 diesel models don't make all that much more torque than the petrol version and use the 8HP76. Perhaps there's not as much headroom to the 8HP51 as we'd like to think? If Ineos starts using the upcoming hybrid BMW engines and HP/Torque numbers jump substantially we'll know the answer by which transmission goes in behind them. Personally I wonder if the 8HP51 is marginal and was paired to the petrol model mainly for fuel economy. Lighter weight, less rotating mass, etc. Probably cheaper, too.

They will use the same engine and transmission combo as BMW does.
The current box on the petrol Grenadier is only capable of 550NM I think whereas the diesel box is good for 760 NM

Norb-TX · Jun 7, 2024

Ineos should make an Americas Cup edition Grenadier.

255/85 · Jun 7, 2024

Zimm said:
I don’t see any major drivetrain changes in the foreseeable future. They don’t have the volume. The good part is, the year one and year six rigs won’t be significantly different. It’s good for maintenance and good for resale.

Increasingly stringent emissions standards in the US and the EU will force Ineos' hand sooner than that I'd think. Part of the reason for the Fusilier is an attempt to balance out CAFE standards as Grenadier/Quartermaster production numbers climb and Ineos loses its low-volume standing.

DaveB said:
They will use the same engine and transmission combo as BMW does.
The current box on the petrol Grenadier is only capable of 550NM I think whereas the diesel box is good for 760 NM

Those numbers are actually higher than I remembered. Thank you.

Max · Jun 7, 2024

Norb-TX

Let's keep the Grenadier out of the saltwater.

INEOS Britannia

INEOS Britannia
https://www.ineosbritannia.com

1 May 2024 13:27. INEOS Britannia Names Harken Official Supplier for the 37th America's Cup ... INEOS is a Registered Trademark, the property of INEOS Capital ...

Tazzieman · Jun 7, 2024

Here's an idea for a US built Arcane Grenadier. You guys like big, even if you don't like Russian

The Hand-Built Uran SUV Is a Russian Giant with a 16-Liter V6 from an Infantry Fighting Vehicle

From Russia, with love.

www.thedrive.com

Max · Jun 7, 2024

255/85 said:
Increasingly stringent emissions standards in the US and the EU will force Ineos' hand sooner than that I'd think. Part of the reason for the Fusilier is an attempt to balance out CAFE standards as Grenadier/Quartermaster production numbers climb and Ineos loses its low-volume standing.

Those numbers are actually higher than I remembered. Thank you.

8HP70 to replace A442f

IH8MUD Forum
https://forum.ih8mud.com › ... › 80-Series Tech

21 May 2024 — The 8hp70 apparently is good to 1100hp and I've seen vids of this trans in 700hp supra and other high hp vehicles. It can be configured to ...

255/85 · Jun 7, 2024

Max said:
8HP70 to replace A442f
View attachment 7859040
IH8MUD Forum
https://forum.ih8mud.com › ... › 80-Series Tech

21 May 2024 — The 8hp70 apparently is good to 1100hp and I've seen vids of this trans in 700hp supra and other high hp vehicles. It can be configured to ...

I think the question is "For how long?". The tuner crowd has run that much through the 8HP50/51 but upgrades become necessary very quickly.

I'm not surprised the post on Mud doesn't have any responses. Lots of hate over there for anything non-Toyota. There are exceptions but BMW drivetrains wouldn't be one of them.

AWo · Jun 7, 2024

255/85 said:
Agreed. If power numbers increase they might have to go to a chain-driven design. There's just so much sheer force in a gear drive box with the consequence of excess heat. I can't see Ineos trying to make the current Tremec unit any bigger but maybe a larger dedicated radiator will suffice. Eliminating the center locking feature and relying on traction control will help too.

I'm not sure what the transmissions are really capable of. The B57 diesel models don't make all that much more torque than the petrol version and use the 8HP76. Perhaps there's not as much headroom to the 8HP51 as we'd like to think? If Ineos starts using the upcoming hybrid BMW engines and HP/Torque numbers jump substantially we'll know the answer by which transmission goes in behind them. Personally I wonder if the 8HP51 is marginal and was paired to the petrol model mainly for fuel economy. Lighter weight, less rotating mass, etc. Probably cheaper, too.

At the time in 12/2021, when the the two II/B prototypes were in my garage and the one which drove at the IAA Munich were reduced in power, as the transfer box from Tremec was to weak.
I don't know if that has been addressed.

AWo

Tazzieman · Jun 7, 2024

AWo said:
At the time in 12/2021, when the the two II/B prototypes were in my garage and the one which drove at the IAA Munich were reduced in power, as the transfer box from Tremec was to weak.

Were they diesels or petrols , or one of each?

landmannnn · Jun 7, 2024

255/85 said:
But below the price of a Mercedes. Ineos won't tread on a benefactor's toes. I'm sure they got a great deal on the Hambach plant and I bet it came with some caveats.

The caveat is the French employment laws. Eye watering cost-to-employ, 35 hour maximum working week, potentially several hundred thousand redundancy cost per person and many more.

AWo · Jun 7, 2024

Tazzieman said:
Were they diesels or petrols , or one of each?

Good question.....I don't know anymore. I drove one of them. If someone drove it on the Abenteuer&Allrad fair 2022, it was that vehicle. Maybe one can remember driving that...
AFAIK the original transfer case design was from LeTec (at least in 2020), but I don't know if Tremec made a new one or if they just build what LeTec has developed. And the LeTec one was too weak in the beginning. That happens, no problem. You start with a thing, figure out what it means and hopefully address the issues which occur.

Can you recognize it, that is the engine bay of the one I drove. I would suggest that this is the B58 petrol.

AWo

CountyV8 · Jun 7, 2024

B58 AWo

rovie · Jun 7, 2024

This is a petrol engine.

[ Adam ] · Jun 7, 2024

DaveB said:
Their largest market is the rest of the world.

I'd love to see numbers or a quote backing that up. Everything I've heard is second and third hand, but the growth is expected to accelerate in the next few years, for the US to be #1 by a double digit margin or more.

Interesting how later on you start talking about margin - with a future NA factory supplying all of North America, you might be wrong there too.

re: Jeep - there will never be a market for the jeep like the US. We're talking consistently selling 150-250k vehicles a year of Wrangler. That's huge. There are millions of them on the road here. And there will be another million sold long before the RoW market buys their first half million (maybe even 100k?) Grenadiers.

Of course that has nothing to do with the Grenadier.

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