Arcane Grenadier

[Tazzieman]

All Jeep sales fell off a cliff in Australia after this went viral.
Any mfr should fear a pissed off YT savvy man!

View: https://youtu.be/5sVmoOZRypk?si=I9OMvxIcEyv7suqr

 

[255/85]

Here's an idea for a US built Arcane Grenadier. You guys like big, even if you don't like Russian

The Hand-Built Uran SUV Is a Russian Giant with a 16-Liter V6 from an Infantry Fighting Vehicle

From Russia, with love.

www.thedrive.com

As a Yank with more than one large American pick-up in the garage I must say that thing is weird looking. Now the little utility rig behind it...

 

[255/85]

B58 AWo

But not the one currently offered. It looks like the earlier version with an actual exhaust manifold.

 

[Tom109]

Arcane should be something like Unicat’s Entdecker G-wagon.

 

[dreamalaska]

Latest from Ineos:

Thank you for registering your interest in our first limited edition 4X4, Grenadier 1924. We’ve seen a fantastic response from around the world. Mark 26th June in your diary, when you’ll be able to visit the online configurator on our website and make one of these special vehicles your own. Only 1,924 will be produced, and so you don’t miss out, we’ll send you an email to remind you when orders open. In the meantime, here are some more images of Grenadier 1924, so you can get a closer look and share with friends and family.

 

[mdg]

If you are not successful in the US market, you will not be successful worldwide, it's that simple. Does Ineos want a loser with his name on it? If you are successful you wouldn't. So as us in the US are not that familiar with the Ineos brand, how many people stop and ask you? The US is the toughest market in the world and they must appease these people. Do they know what marketing is? Do they know how to support their dealers? I mean that is really basic stuff. They make money on everyone sold to a dealer (not retailed) as they pile up dealers will stop ordering them. We see it happening now. The release of the brand has not been good even with all his money behind it. Did they not consult experts in the market? Less than 15% of Grenadiers actually are used off road as per my discussion with 2 east coast dealers. The Arcane is a great start to be more positive speaking strictly for the USA. Look at the trades the dealers are taking in, LR's, MB's Jeeps and Broncos. They have a market here! Most these are really country club vehicles and we need those additional options and details to push this market. As a dealer and multiple vehicle owner in the US I can only hope they re-strategize the brand. The EV, waste of time, they do not sell unless there are $10K's of incentives. I have an order for the 1st Arcane. My Grenadier has been wonderful and drives great on the beach!

 

[AWo]

IIf you are not successful in the US market, you will not be successful worldwide

I don't think so.

First you have to distinguish between the brand a a modell. There are many car modells not sold in the US from manufacturers which have global success. And there are manufacturers which do not sell to the US at all or have stopped to do so in the past. Then you need to define success. Do you measure it in numbers of units sold or the revenue created in the US?

Examples of manufactueres which can live without US sales:
French cars (Citroen, Renault, Peugeot). You see them everywhere in the world, just not in the US. Beside Ford Peugeot is the largest Diesel engine manufacturer of the world. I would call that a success.
--> PSA, which bought Opel form GM sold 3.5 Million units in 2020
--> Renault 3.79 Million units in 2020
--> Citroen about 1 Mio units in 2018

Dacia - 573,000 units in 2023, over 8 Mio. overall, but not in the US. It is the 6th largest car manufacturter
Škoda - 1.1 Mio. units in 2023
Mitsubishi, 1.1 Mio units in 2022 - 40,000-somehwat in the US
Isuzu - 671,000 units in 2023
Mahindra - 600,000 units
Suzuki - 280,000 units in 2023 - only a few in the US sold, if any (I thought they closed down in 2013 or 2014). A small manufacturer with only a few modells but very popluar small SUV's and 4x4's. The Jimny was so successful in Europe, that they had to stop selling it as they reached the allowed emission limit.

If we look at single models, the list grows....

Of course, if one think the US is the majority of the world, you're right.

AWo

 

[mdg]

I don't think so.

First you have to distinguish between the brand a a modell. There are many car modells not sold in the US from manufacturers which have global success. And there are manufacturers which do not sell to the US at all or have stoped to do so in the past. Then you need to define success. Do you measure it in numbers of units sold or the revenue created in the US?

Examples of manufactueres which can live without US sales:
French cars (Citroen, Renault, Peugeot). You see them everywhere in teh world, just not in the US. Beside Ford Peugeot is the largest Diesel engine manufacturer of the world. I would call that a success.
--> PSA, which bought Opel form GM sold 3.5 Million units in 2020
--> Renault 3.79 Million units in 2020
--> Citroen about 1 Mio units in 2018

Dacia - 573,000 units in 2023, over 8 Mio. overall, but not in the US. It is the 6th largest car manufacturter
Škoda - 1.1 Mio. units in 2023
Mitsubishi, 1.1 Mio units in 2022 - 40,000-somehwat in the US
Isuzu - 671,000 units in 2023
Mahindra - 600,000 units
Suzuki - 280,000 units in 2023 - only a few in the US sold, if any (I thought they closed down in 2013 or 2014). A small manufacturer with only a few modells but very popluar small SUV's and 4x4's. The Jimny was so successful in Europe, that they had to stop selling it as they reached the allowed emission limit.

If we look at single models, the list grows....

Of course, if one think the US is the majority of the world, you're right.

A

 

[mdg]

If you ask any manufacturer, at least the worlds top 10, they would opine that the US is the most important market (I sat on boards of most). If you want to sit at the big boy table you must be successful (total unit sales is how it is measured)in that market, being 12th in the world is great but who remembers 12th. Not saying that you do not bring up an interesting point, but most you have listed failed in the US, but everyone has their opinions and I am fine with that.
My concern is that Ineos has not had a great launch in the US. Most important market or not, they chose to sell 50% of their production here. I think the vehicles are great and have had wonderful luck with my 2500 miles.
I appreciate and respect the spirited convo.

 

[bemax]

If you ask any manufacturer, at least the worlds top 10, they would opine that the US is the most important market (I sat on boards of most). If you want to sit at the big boy table you must be successful (total unit sales is how it is measured)in that market, being 12th in the world is great but who remembers 12th. Not saying that you do not bring up an interesting point, but most you have listed failed in the US, but everyone has their opinions and I am fine with that.
My concern is that Ineos has not had a great launch in the US. Most important market or not, they chose to sell 50% of their production here. I think the vehicles are great and have had wonderful luck with my 2500 miles.
I appreciate and respect the spirited convo.

Volkswagen (with their sub brands) sold in 2022 not even 10 % of their production in North America. In The USA not much more than 7 %.
Worldwide they have been number 2 that year.

 

[Zimm]

If you ask any manufacturer, at least the worlds top 10, they would opine that the US is the most important market (I sat on boards of most). If you want to sit at the big boy table you must be successful (total unit sales is how it is measured)in that market, being 12th in the world is great but who remembers 12th. Not saying that you do not bring up an interesting point, but most you have listed failed in the US, but everyone has their opinions and I am fine with that.
My concern is that Ineos has not had a great launch in the US. Most important market or not, they chose to sell 50% of their production here. I think the vehicles are great and have had wonderful luck with my 2500 miles.
I appreciate and respect the spirited convo.

I just did a quick google search of the top 10. This data is from an Investopedia article Dec, 2023. I'll just assume it's correct. Out of curiosity, which ones?

• #1 Volkswagen AG (VWAGY)
• #2 Toyota Motor Corp. (TM)
• #3 Stellantis (STLA)
• #4 Mercedes Benz AG (MBGYY)
• #5 Ford Motor Co. (F)
• #6 General Motors (GM)
• #7 Honda Motor Co. Ltd. (HMC)
• #8 Tesla Motors (TSLA)
• #9 Nissan Motors (NSANY)
• #10 BYD Co. Ltd. (BYDDY)

Also, I'm not suggesting going upmarket for the US luxury mallcrawler crowd wouldn't provide income, as it most certainly would. I just think it's glaring that you think the whole point of this exercise was to make a Range Rover Gwagon competitor. Wasn't the point of whole spiel to precisely NOT go to the market these brands now carter to?

 

[AWo]

but most you have listed failed in the US,

Exactly. That is my point. They exist, sell cars and they do not need the US for that.

I.M.H.O Ineos needs the US and Australia to survive, but for a different reason, because 4x4's are normal and needed there, not like in many parts of Europe where they are damned (until a flood or earthquake happens...we saw that during the Ahr flood. Officials asked for private owned 4x4s to help).

As I said, every potential customer who doesn't buy a Grenadier is a lost customer for at least three years due to the lack of other models. But the development of the car costs the same, if you sell it 100 or 100,000 times. That is again different when building it. You have to build cars in numbers where the machines run at low costs and the tools exchange rate is as low as possible compared to the units build. The numbers Ineos builds leads to higher sourcing prices.

AWo

 

[255/85]

...But the development of the car costs the same, if you sell it 100 or 100,000 times. That is again different when building it. You have to build cars in numbers where the machines run at low costs and the tools exchange rate is as low as possible compared to the units build. The numbers Ineos builds leads to higher sourcing prices.

AWo

Yes, but Ineos knew that going in. They decided they could be successful with very low volume production numbers (of the Grenadier specifically). Their manufacturing costs have changed due to the pandemic and now a war but those costs are being passed on to buyers. Has their thinking changed? Do they need volume sales now or just want it?

 

[Zimm]

Yes, but Ineos knew that going in. They decided they could be successful with very low volume production numbers (of the Grenadier specifically). Their manufacturing costs have changed due to the pandemic and now a war but those costs are being passed on to buyers. Has their thinking changed? Do they need volume sales now or just want it?

OH OH PICK ME PICK ME!!!!!


They need it. I don't think the higher prices offset the cost overrun's. The "sir" has the attention span and manufacturing knowledge of 2012 Musk not 1912 Henry Ford.

 

[AWo]

Aha, probably being successful is a decision of Ineos. I didn't know that success is just a decision. Things can be so easy!

AWo

 

[255/85]

OH OH PICK ME PICK ME!!!!!

Goof

They need it. I don't think the higher prices offset the cost overrun's. The "sir" has the attention span and manufacturing knowledge of 2012 Musk not 1912 Henry Ford.

Certainly not the first year ROW models. Ineos admitted they were selling those at the original agreed price despite increased costs. I doubt they're taking a loss at this point but what do I know.

 

[255/85]

Aha, probably being successful is a decision of Ineos. I didn't know that success is just a decision. Things can be so easy!

AWo

Ha! I didn't mean that to sound as if they made a personal affirmation. I should have said "made a mathematical calculation".

I decide things every day . Nobody respects my decisions though .

 

[AWo]

Ha! I didn't mean that to sound as if they made a personal affirmation. I should have said "made a mathematical calculation".

I decide things every day . Nobody respects my decisions though .

Sorry. I do not respect your decision to take decisions nobody respects.



However, serious...

I saw once a very interesting report about winners of lotteries and how their ideas and projects turned out in the end. A guy who accompies such projects meant: If you have enough money to be able to realize things is a blessing and a curse. On one hand nobody stops you, you can do beautiful and successful things. On the other hand, nobody stops you even if that is a stupid idea.

Ineos not only took wise decisions in the past. There were quite a few, celebrated and then went wrong. And in this special case you need to take into consideration, that there is a strong wish of a single man behind that, not a company decision with many board members, banks, etc. who will have a look at your idea and perform checks on it.
Yes, they did market analysis, I was a very small part of it in the beginning, but the question is, where do you look at? Do you look at the whole market, globally, at all automotive related things or do you just make market surveys in that small niche? What I saw was that they just looked at that small niche. Maybe that has changed later, but keep in mind, he wanted that to happen. It is that simple. That was not a decision with building a a big business in mind, that was a love, a dream which should become truth. You can see it in things and how they happend and went along (and which are not public). And there are companies around, which support such an idea, because it generates business for them. They will not stop you. If it goes wrong, they continue with their business, but you are out. That is also something I saw, especially in the beginning, people acted in a manner that before he took his final decision he does not stop the project under any circumstances. But you saw signs of potential partners, which were not dependent on Ineos and which could afford to say no to a cooperation, due to their experience. And they did say no. That changed when BMW came aboard. That was a door opener because BMW is trusted.

AWo

 

[255/85]

Sorry. I do not respect your decision to take decisions nobody respects.

However, serious...

I saw once a very interesting report about winners of lotteries and how their ideas and projects turned out in the end. A guy who accompies such projects meant: If you have enough money to be able to realize things is a blessing and a curse. On one hand nobody stops you, you can do beautiful and successful things. On the other hand, nobody stops you even if that is a stupid idea.

AWo

There's an old saying hereabouts...

"Give a man enough rope and he will hang himself."

Substitute money or power for rope and you'll often get the same result.

 

[Zimm]

There's an old saying hereabouts...

"Give a man enough rope and he will hang himself."

Substitute money or power for rope and you'll often get the same result.

Having lived, I'll take death due to wealth over death due to poverty. That coming from someone that on the surface appeared to have a lifelong dream of dying poor and has done everything possible to ensure that success.