General Coolant hose ~ damage / holed

DCPU · Aug 29, 2023

Telliottaus said:
There are hoses at each end of the pipe connecting the transfer case to the cooler I.e. between the pipe and the transfer case and cooler and pipe. The hoses are crimped on to the pipes and are one part.

I hadn't considered that when looking at them.

That's going to be fun to thread through to reassemble; never mind package individually for shipment.

NQ94 · Aug 29, 2023

AWo said:
One of the reasons for the additional cooler are the high beams in the grille. While the light experts in the Grenadier project found them not urgently needed (when they were still halogen) and in additon they restrict you in adding more high beam lights, these lights are a personal design wish of JR. But they reduce the cooling power for the engine via the main cooler, so the engineers needed to find another space and surface for cooling.

These lights where the only halogen lights in the beginning until at some later point it was reckognized that all other lights are LED,so that was changed very late, but they remained.

AWo

Its not the position of the lights or radiators or the coolers that are the most concerning. Many people fit auxiliary lights, winches, bull bars to the front of their cars that can block air flow. The issues is how the hoses are routed, supported and prevented from rubbing and vibrating. A machine can have the best cooling system to suit the hottest climates but what ultimately lets down any cooling system is the execution of the connections and coolant transfer between the item being cooled and the coolers. Like BMW cars with their hoses, Ineos has used too many joints to complete a simple task that Toyota, Nissan, Caterpillar, Ford and many more manufacturers can achieve with significantly less joints and just as many hoses.

AWo · Aug 29, 2023

NQ94 said:
Its not the position of the lights or radiators or the coolers that are the most concerning. Many people fit auxiliary lights, winches, bull bars to the front of their cars that can block air flow.

The lights are a factor with the Grenadier. When the cooling power is already near the limit, such a placement of parts in the cooling will have an effect. That must not be the case for other cars. Look at the Defener Td5. It has a very powerful and nearly oversized cooling, that engine is not harmed by blocked cooling air. But that must not be the case with other cars and it is not the case with the Grenadier.

AWo

Tazzieman · Aug 29, 2023

AWo said:
The lights are a factor with the Grenadier. When the cooling power is already near the limit, such a placement of parts in the cooling will have an effect.

I wonder if this will reduce cooling?
The world isn't getting any colder in the next few decades!

AWo · Aug 29, 2023

Tazzieman said:
I wonder if this will reduce cooling?
The world isn't getting any colder in the next few decades!

Good question....is that an Ineos approved solution? If not, it would be interesting who pays in the end if a damage occurs if the mounting scheme is intended to be just there (However, there will be no damage, as the ECU will cut off power, when the engine gets too hot, preventing a serious damage).

We had once a Jeep Wrangler on a lift, where the rear bent HD-Panhard rod (accessory, bent to give more freedom) had gobsmacked the exhaust pipe over the rear axle. It had an expertise so it could be legally mounted and which meand that some Engineer looked at it and wrote the official papers. However, it seems that no one noticed that when the axle dives in completely it just hits the exhaust pipe....so, things can happen (even if rarely), especially if you buy in the aftermarket and if parts are no approved.

Same thing for a supplement fuel tank I once wanted to buy. I asked if the wheel can turn free when I use a tire sze of 255/85 R16. I was told yes, everything is fine and I received an expertise about that. However, by incident my friend, who professionally repairs 4x4 (and develops parts for the Grenadier) had a Defender with that wheel size and this fuel tank on his lift. We made a test and saw, that the wheel hits the supplemenal fuel tank. I went back to the vendor and then he added, that the car he used to get the expertise hat a track extension mounted, which no one noticed.

AWo

Tazzieman · Aug 29, 2023

I'm very wary of additions and "improvements" over the designs of Magna-Steyr engineers and field testers.
I'll let others beta test this sort of stuff in proper hard conditions.

AWo · Aug 29, 2023

Tazzieman said:
I'm very wary of additions and "improvements" over the designs of Magna-Steyr engineers and field testers.
I'll let others beta test this sort of stuff in proper hard conditions.

Magna Steyr (in Graz) hasn't developed that car. That was Akka (former MB Technologies), which made cars like the convertible MB E-Class and Magna Drivetrain (in Steyr). Magna Steyr in Graz was responsible for transforming the protoype builds into a production vehicle. of course, that can lead to design changes, but that is not the development itself.

AWo

Tazzieman · Aug 29, 2023

AWo said:
Magna Steyr (in Graz) hasn't developed that car. That was Akka (former MB Technologies), which made cars like the convertible MB E-Class and Magna Drivetrain (in Steyr). Magna Steyr in Graz was responsible for transforming the protoype builds into a production vehicle. of course, that can lead to design change, but that is not the development itself.

AWo

Nonetheless there is a ton of engineering that had to pass at all levels before they released the final vehicle.
Not to say its perfect, but I'm trusting what they've done so far to bring this project to fruition.
(software nothwithstanding...)

Telliottaus · Aug 29, 2023

DCPU said:
I hadn't considered that when looking at them.
View attachment 7825145
View attachment 7825146
That's going to be fun to thread through to reassemble; never mind package individually for shipment.

They have to take part of the sub frame off near the transfer case

anand · Aug 29, 2023

bigleonski said:
Hmmmm, hey Ineos, how long do you think that would take Toyota? Or even Jeep?

It really doesn't seem logical or fair to compare parts times on a <6 month old vehicle from a company that is a brand new automotive brand to companies that have been building vehicles for the better part of a century with stock parts distribution around the globe

DCPU · Aug 29, 2023

anand said:
It really doesn't seem logical or fair to compare parts times on a <6 month old vehicle from a company that is a brand new automotive brand to companies that have been building vehicles for the better part of a century with stock parts distribution around the globe

So were they just lying to potential customers when they said this:

It was September 2022 when they were getting orders in to fill the warehouse in Belgium:

Parts Support ~ 24 or 48 Hours?

I thought I was going mad...various references to Parts Support mentioned 24 hours and others 48. So it seems UK website is 48 hours but Oz site is 24. Why?

www.theineosforum.com

Wilaspira · Aug 29, 2023

DCPU said:
So were they just lying to potential customers when they said this:
View attachment 7825178

It was September 2022 when they were getting orders in to fill the warehouse in Belgium:

Parts Support ~ 24 or 48 Hours?

I thought I was going mad...various references to Parts Support mentioned 24 hours and others 48. So it seems UK website is 48 hours but Oz site is 24. Why?

www.theineosforum.com

Seems that perhaps they were. I’m 2.5 weeks in and still waiting for them to deliver the control unit that will allow me to drive the vehicle again (with indicators and without constant wiper activation). I am in the UK so not exactly a minor market (or perhaps it is)? I have only had the vehicle a few months and it looks like I might be 3 weeks+ without it or a suitable replacement at best

anand · Aug 29, 2023

DCPU said:
So were they just lying to potential customers when they said this:

Their wording of "aiming to" I think speaks a lot about the intent, and that it isn't/wasn't a lie. I think that 24 hour goal is great, and if I were purely guessing, I would imagine that as a great 1 year plan (after customer vehicles first start hitting the streets).

Here in the US, a RAM dealer recently advised someone that it would be up to 6 months to get a replacement transmission for the failed unit in his <3,000mi old 2023 Ram 2500; parts delays exist from every manufacturer for something somewhere. I've waited several weeks for a control module or a wiring harness for a few year old Audi to arrive from Germany because it wasn't something stocked in the US; if Ineos' goal is 24hrs for parts in major markets, even at quadruple that it would be phenomenal and not often done by much larger car companies that have many more parts warehouses around the globe.

Jean Mercier · Aug 29, 2023

DCPU said:
So were they just lying to potential customers when they said this:
View attachment 7825178

It was September 2022 when they were getting orders in to fill the warehouse in Belgium:

Parts Support ~ 24 or 48 Hours?

I thought I was going mad...various references to Parts Support mentioned 24 hours and others 48. So it seems UK website is 48 hours but Oz site is 24. Why?

www.theineosforum.com

The spare parts warehouse of Ineos Automotive is located in Belgium.
Only the Belgians are entitled to 24h-parts delivered!
Or am I wrong?

Added: link to a post of @DCPU

Parts Support ~ 24 or 48 Hours?

I thought I was going mad...various references to Parts Support mentioned 24 hours and others 48. So it seems UK website is 48 hours but Oz site is 24. Why?

www.theineosforum.com

DCPU · Aug 29, 2023

anand said:
Here in the US, a RAM dealer recently advised someone that it would be up to 6 months to get a replacement transmission for the failed unit in his <3,000mi old 2023 Ram 2500; parts delays exist from every manufacturer for something somewhere. I've waited several weeks for a control module or a wiring harness for a few year old Audi to arrive from Germany because it wasn't something stocked in the US; if Ineos' goal is 24hrs for parts in major markets, even at quadruple that it would be phenomenal and not often done by much larger car companies that have many more parts warehouses around the globe.

So they've been building stocks of spares in the main warehouse in Belgium for nearly 12 months, in that time practically nothing has moved out (with no sales), there's maybe a few thousand vehicles now out with owners and they can't service that small population with spares from a location that's supposed to support 10s of thousands of vehicles?

I suspect people would settle for quadruple the advertised time, especially when they're still waiting over 17 times longer.

Your earlier comment of "logical or fair" seems to imply people taking Ineos at their word were illogical and unfair?

IG_in_AZ · Aug 29, 2023

AWo said:
One of the reasons for the additional cooler are the high beams in the grille. While the light experts in the Grenadier project found them not urgently needed (when they were still halogen) and in additon they restrict you in adding more high beam lights, these lights are a personal design wish of JR. But they reduce the cooling power for the engine via the main cooler, so the engineers needed to find another space and surface for cooling.

These lights where the only halogen lights in the beginning until at some later point it was reckognized that all other lights are LED,so that was changed very late, but they remained.

AWo

My wife had a BMW F650GS with a small front radiator. We installed large PIAA lights that interrupted the airflow through the radiator, despite being a few inches in front of the radiator. We had no idea that we had disrupted the radiator until, for years thereafter, the bike had cooling issues. We replaced the fan, clutch, radiator, water pump, multiple thermostats until we finally figured out it was the lights.

anand · Aug 29, 2023

DCPU said:
Your earlier comment of "logical or fair" seems to imply people taking Ineos at their word were illogical and unfair?

Not at all, just that, at least to me, it would make sense that their statement (goal really) is more of a long term goal once global roll out is complete.

If they have been stockpiling parts in Belgium for nearly a year, then I'll agree, parts shipments should be faster, however, that is also making the assumption that people are waiting on were on that list and have not been changed since the process began (with the updated parts being prioritized to the assembly line instead of the warehouse). Over the months of the PTO2 tour in the US I overheard bits of several conversations regarding some parts were being altered for MY24; I have no proof or corroboration of those details, but, that adds another layer of parts shifting.

DCPU · Aug 30, 2023

You now seem to be suggesting that because it was an immature design, it's more complex.

I don't think we'll agree. On this point of customer contact Ineos have failed to deliver to a number of early adopters.

AnD3rew · Aug 30, 2023

Update on my coolant hose. The top hose was rubbing against the fan shroud and had worn enough to start spraying coolant from a small hole. Apparently they have a PDI rectification item to move the clips on the bottom hose to stop rubbing but not this top one. They have replaced the hose and relocated a clip to ensure that there is now enough clearance. INEOS have been informed and presumably will be added to pre delivery checks. I am happy that I have a resolution and back on the road, but somewhat concerned that a hose can wear through in 300km of mild driving, would expect even if it was touching something that it would take longer than that. Anyway check the run of your top hose to make sure it isn’t contacting the fans shroud anywhere.

Mules · Dec 3, 2023

Well,

Had set off for the Brindabella's for a weekend some weeks back with my 3 year old daughter. The truck was going great, after some convincing getting into low range and subsequently locking the centre diff (how cheap does that high/low lever ball feel??), the truck was performing really very smoothly in some good, steep 4WD tracks. Took me a bit to get used to the auto gearbox, but ultimately felt very planted and was certainly smooth in negotiating the terrain.

After a good half day of meandering in low range and a big smile on the face, we pulled up not far from McIntyre's camp ground in some high country where I noticed coolant dripping from right side of the bash plate. Cursed myself for not having my armoury of tools and spares that I'd ordinarily take with my older Landy. After graciously receiving some basics from passers-by, I taped up the leak - stemming from a coolant hose that intersected with at least one other coolant hose, and neatly resting against the fan shroud! Made a mess of the engine bay, having sprayed all over the front of it - making it difficult to pinpoint the leak, let alone confirm there was only one.

Anyway cleaned it up best I could and on went the gaffer tape - no obvious leak the next morning and so set off cautiously the way we came. A couple of stops and inspections later, the leak resumes - the tape wasn't a match for the pressure (not that it was a great tape job, but being slimy with coolant and in an awkward spot made things tricky). Subsequent help from other good folk in the trails saw the leak stemmed by way of a tyre plug inserted into the hole, which when the coolant/pipe heated up, created a very effective seal (combined with electrical tape to hold it all together). Some of the coolant I had captured and put back in by way of the LHS expansion tank (which I later learned is the lower of the 'two' ). Didn't seem to be below the min, so thought we were safe.

Headed downhill for another km, no issues. Inspected hoses and coolant level at Flea Creek , all seemed OK. Started steep climb back out along the Gentle Annie towards Brindabella Road, few hundred metres in and engine temps rose right up to 130°C.. pulled over and switched off... long story short, took us 4 hours to get up to Brindabella Road. We could go a few hundred meters, then have to pull over and let cool for anywhere between 10-30 min... after that one could make another good dash before the temps starting hitting the top of the gauge again. Temp warning

appeared multiple times, but I never sought to push beyond that lest I invited limp mode - or indeed engine damage.

We had to get higher to get any reliable mobile comms, at which point Ineos' recovery was eventually called (and thanks to the RFS btw for making a call home). While waiting for the flat bed, a large convoy passed, at the back of it was a striking blue Grenadier belonging to Rob Wilson - a real gentleman, and check out his truck if you ever get the chance, that pop top is something else!! As the tow truck didn't have an easy solution for kids riding in the cab, Rob gave us a lift down the hill and a long day came to an end.

4X4 Garage were right on it once the truck arrived the next day, and by Tues it was ready for pick up. The mechanic made a temporary fix while the genuine part is on order. The overheating was likely a combination of coolant loss, coolant flow obstruction (tyre plug reducing flow rate), and the introduction of air into the system.

I remain not thrilled with the arrangement and security of the coolant hoses. For context, I recently finished replacing/rebuilding the entire coolant system on my 300tdi Defender. Those familiar with those engines know how finniky the cooling system can be, but now looking at it it strikes me as being pretty simple/robust in comparison. In fact, there are a bunch of wires/cables underneath the Grenadier that I think need more thought put towards their placement/security.

Anyway, I expected teething problems and unfortunately found one. I expect more. Finding and fixing them methodically I hope will produce a reliable remote travel vehicle. It's otherwise an astounding piece of engineering and a rewarding leap of faith to be a part of.

My only other gripe is that I well and truly fall into the camp of "this left footrest is an issue"... can't wait until someone braver than me takes to it with an angle grinder and proves there is a remedy. I'm astounded Jim accepted it, being tall and lanky himself.

Engine bay pic is following the repair unfortunately, showing some intermediary pipe work on the left, and the rough location of the rub point circled on the right... obviously not the first to have this issue. I've inspected several other Grenadiers since and none seem to have pipework quite so close to the radiator fan shroud, which is positive. Guess they missed it on the PDI..

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General Coolant hose ~ damage / holed

DCPU

NQ94

AWo

Tazzieman

AWo

Tazzieman

AWo

Tazzieman

Telliottaus

anand

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DCPU

Parts Support ~ 24 or 48 Hours?

Wilaspira

Parts Support ~ 24 or 48 Hours?

anand

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Jean Mercier

GG#920

Parts Support ~ 24 or 48 Hours?

Parts Support ~ 24 or 48 Hours?

DCPU

IG_in_AZ

Global Grenadiers #1372

anand

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DCPU

AnD3rew

Inch deep and a mile wide.

Mules

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