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Winch recovery kit

bigleonski

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Can anyone with experience recommend a recovery track brand. Having sold all my recovery kit with my Defender I’m in the market for a complete new set of kit. Previously I had aluminium alloy recovery tracks/bridging ladders. These were good but heavy. I’m now going to go with lightweight plastic tracks such as Maxtracks but not necessarily that brand. At about £300 a set it’s a substantial investment as I want two sets ! what are your recommendations 🤔
The thing is you hardly ever need them but when you do they are invaluable.
Strange that Maxtrax are £300 in the UK, you can get them on special in Aus for A$250 or less than £150.
 

DCPU

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Tested by Robert Pepper and found to be poor.
Maybe for Oz sand but work just fine in UK.

Don't have the Gucci factor, but more than pass the fit for purpose test.

My first "sand ladders" were recovered lengths of steel PSP abandoned on Salisbury Plain. Cost me nothing, did the job and I even got some money for them when I eventually sold them.
 

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Buy once buy right.

The only issue with maxtrax (and the others) is you need to make sure you don’t hit the accelerator full on and cause the wheels to spin, otherwise you’ll burn/melt the lugs off the trax. Just make sure they are solidly under the tyres then you just need to drive off them and away you go.
…or fork out for the version with replaceable metal studs (Maxtrax Extreme).
Really these are perhaps best for rock-crawling, technical terrain where they’re being used regularly.
 

bigleonski

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…or fork out for the version with replaceable metal studs (Maxtrax Extreme).
Really these are perhaps best for rock-crawling, technical terrain where they’re being used regularly.
I saw a vid the other day where a bloke ground off a melted plastic stud and replaced it with the metal one. Great misterfixit moment.
 

AWo

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1) Good recovery equipment should not have the breaking load noted. Only the WLL.
Why? because you should never exceed the WLL. Exceeding the WLL leads to a decrease of the breaking limit (and the WLL) everytime you use it and that is something you never want to have! If only the WLL is noted (what is the case on proper forest equipment for ground based pulling), you have the absolutely limit. Stick to it. Therefore the breaking limit is absolutely unimportant. Why should I need to know the breaking limit when I should never exceed the WLL. See 2)

2) If you look for equipment with a higher safety margin you only get a lower WLL with the same breaking limit. If you want to have the proper WLL with a higher safety margin you end up with equipment you can't handle anymore. 2 x WLL is the proven and normal safety margin in forestry. Higher safety margins are found only with hanging weights to compensate forces added while the load is swinging.
Example: If you need 5 t WLL you can absolutely safely work with a rope which has a 10 t breaking limit. Otherwise you end up with a rope which has 7 x WLL = 35 t. Please check what kind of monster a rope (or other equipment) is with a WLL of 35 t (except steel shackles).

3) At least in Germany there is a new standard for forestry. called FTF (Forest Tractive Force). This standard helps you preventing errors, because you just look at your highest winch pulling power and choose the next FT level. If your winch pulls 5,4 t for example, choose FTF 6. All equipment labeled with FTF 6 is able to cope with the winch power at its maximum. With WLL you may have to calculate a little bit.

4) The winch is the weakest part of you recovery gear. If all is in best condition, the winch will stop pulling before something happens. Why? Because in most installations it will never get the DC power it needs for full pulling power as the cross section of the cable almost always too low. The largest I saw was 100 mm2. Even that is too low for a Warn Zeon for full pullling force. The second reason is, all equipment (if it fits to the winch power) is able to cope with the miniumum of the double pulling force of the winch. No chance to break it by the winch. If something brakes, the equipment was misused or it was in a bad condition already.

5) I do not like synthetic ropes for untrained people and if not in a competition. Synthetic ropes do not "tell" the user that he is about to do a mistake like steel wires do. You can't recognize damages in the ropes as easy as with steel ropes. I am very astonished that Ineos, as a company which produces polyethylene, offers pulleys with friction for synthetic ropes. If these ropes do not like one thing, it is friction and temperature (and in addition via a small radius). But these friction pulleys are cheap. That is another reason why I work with steel: Synthetic ropes are much prone to damage in harsh environments than steel and it ages much quicker. In a competition, it is good to save the weight as it speeds up things and it is good for the winch monkey pulling the rope again and again. But if they sense the rope must be changed, they just do it without crying about the 150 Euros. Private 4x4s tend to keep the rope, because it hast cost some money. Of course, if your gear is proper, there is no risk with synthetic or steel ropes, both do their job flawless. But if stuff gets used, I always trust the steel more.

6) I always prefer steel shackles. If all your gear is in a proper state, the steel shackle is another increase in security. because it does not just brake. It becomes distorted before it brakes noticeably but it is absolutely able to take any penalty and harsh handling. If you used it accordingly and you cannot open it, it tells you that it has suffered to much load. Time to throw it away, which is done easy because they are so much cheaper than synthetic shackles. With synthetic shackles, like with synthetic ropes it is more difficult to detect damages (cause by shock loads for example, when your trapped winch rope gets free and you car takes on speed for a second). if they break, they do that very fast. The only exception where I do not use steel shackles if I connect ropes.

7) The most risky part in a recovery is not the gear, if it is in a proper condition. It is the mounting point on the car. Almost no 4x4 manufacturer tells you how much load the car can take (lucky, it is alway enough). Especially if it is not your car, you'll never know the condition of the mounting point. We pulled out cars which has a fat, big shackle attached to the frame, just to find out a few weeks later, that the frame where the shackle was mounted was only rust, falling apart. We just had luck that nothing bad has happened. So, there can be hidden weak parts you do not know and do not see, so be careful. If these parts break they become dangerous. There is no benefit of having a soft shackle, if the car goes downhill, because its mounting point breaks and no one was standing in the risk area to save with a soft shackle.

That's why I only use my own equipment as I know its history and if it was used properly or not. If I help others, then only after thoroughly checking the mounting points. A rest of risk will always remain. If everybody around sticks to the security rules, the risk that bad things happen to persons will reduced considerably.

The interesting thing is, that you need for almost every danger thing you do in profession an education and a test to proof that you can handle that. In 4x4 you can by a 12 t truck, get it stucked and start to hang this load on a rope and start the action without any knowledge what you're doing. I strongly recommend to get a proper education on this, if you plan to do recoveries. There are a lot of experienced people around. I had the opportunity to learn a lot from a forestry guy who is responsible for all the forest gear in his section and who participates in tests and development of forest equipment. I'm glad, that I could experience from his theoretical and practical knowledge. Another bunch of good people are the one who do trophys etc on a regular basis or maybe on a professional level. Look out for such a guys, because your 70,000 € car may hang on a 50 € rope sometimes in the future....(considering you got you familiy out of the area of risk already, because they are priceless, of course)....

BTW, you should look at information on how to estimate the real load you need to pull depending on where you get stuck. There were measurements of the real load available for different situations and at different angles. You'll see, looking at these numbers, that you have less weight to pull as most people think.

Cheers
AWo
 
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Tazzieman

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I saw a vid the other day where a bloke ground off a melted plastic stud and replaced it with the metal one. Great misterfixit moment.
I'm sure that McGyvering would be the difference between staying bogged and getting out!
Replace them all with Titanium bolts, very Tactical.
 

Tazzieman

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Please check what kind of monster a rope (or other equipment) is wth a WLL of 35 t (except steel shackles).
I've actually got a 5m length of synthetic rope, thick as my lower leg , that evidently came from a very large ship , possibly an ocean liner (we get plenty of gastro/covid ships at our port) . I used it for shoulder , grip and core training in my late 40s.
I reckon it would hold 35T!
 

AWo

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I've actually got a 5m length of synthetic rope, thick as my lower leg , that evidently came from a very large ship , possibly an ocean liner (we get plenty of gastro/covid ships at our port) . I used it for shoulder , grip and core training in my late 40s.
I reckon it would hold 35T!
Sounds like something to trust....🙂.. but can you wind it on the drum of your winch? It does take up some space, doesn't it?

AWo
 

Tazzieman

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With the rope? To pull the island lair around with the liner? Damn...

AWo
It was a small liner with a huge winch . And the island was small.
But now I have just enough to buy a Grenadier and drive it around and around my small island.
And on my acreage , use it to pull trees over (gumtrees get hung up more often than I would like).
 

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1) Good recovery equipment should not have the braking load noted. Only the WLL.
Why? because you should never exceed the WLL. Exceeding the WLL leads to a decrease of the breaking limit (and the WLL) everytime you use it and that is something you never want to have! If only the WLL is noted (what is the case on proper forest equipment for ground based pulling), you have you absolutely limit noted. Stick to it. Therefore the breeaking limit is absoluteley unimportant. Why should I need to know the braking limit when I should never exceed the WLL. See 2)

2) If you look for equipment with a higher safety margin you only get a lower WLL with the same breaking limit. If you want to have the proper WLL with a higher safety margin you end up with equipment you can't handle anymore. 2 x WLL is the proven and normal safety margin in forestry. Higher safety margins are found only with hanging weights to compensate forces added while the load is swinging.
Example: If you need 5 t WLL you can absolutely safely work with a rope which has a 10 t braking limit. Otherwise you end up with a rope which has 7 x WLL = 35 t. Please check what kind of monster a rope (or other equipment) is with a WLL of 35 t (except steel shackles).

3) At least in Germany there is a new standard for forestry. called FTF (Forest Tractive Force). This standard helps you preventing errors, because you just look at your highest winch pulling power and choose the next FT level. If your winch pulls 5,4 t for example, choose FTF 6. All equipment labeled with FTF 6 is able to cope with the winch power at its maximum. With WLL you may have to calculate a little bit.

4) The winch is the weakest part of you recovery gear. If all is in best condition, the winch will stop pulling before something happens. Why? Because in most installations it will never get the DC power it needs for full pulling power as the cross section of the cable almost always too low. The largest I saw was 100 mm2. Even that is too low for a Warn Zeon for full pullling force. The second reason is, all equipment (if it fits to the winch power) is able to cope with the miniumum of the double pulling force of the winch. No chance to break it by the winch. If something brakes, the equipment was misused or it was in a bad condition already.

5) I do not like synthetic ropes for untrained people and if not in a competition. Synthetic ropes do not "tell" the user that he is about to do a mistake like steel wires do. You can't recognize damages in the ropes as easy as with steel ropes. I am very astonished that Ineos, as a company which produces polyethylene, offers pulleys with friction for synthetic ropes. Ff these ropes do not like one thing, it is friction and temperature (and in addition via a small radius). But these pulleys are cheap. That is another eason why I work with steel. Synthetic ropes are much prone to damage in harsh environments than steel and it ages much quicker. In a competition, it is good to save the weight as it speeds up things and it is good for the winch monkey pulling the rope again and again. But if they sense the rope must be changed, they just do it without crying about the 150 Euros. Private 4x4s tend to keep the rope, because it hast cost some money. Of course, if your gear is proper, there is no risk with synthetic or steel ropes, both do their job flawless. But if stuff gets used, I always trust the steel more.

6) I always prefer steel shackles. If all your gear is in a proper state, the steel shackle is another increase in security. because it does not just brake. It becomes distorted before it brakes noticeably but it is absolutely able to take any penalty and harsh handling. If you used it accordingly and you cannot open it, it tells you that it has suffered to much load. Time to throw it away, which is done easy because they are so much cheaper than synthetic shackles. With synthetic shackles, like with synthetic ropes it is more difficult to detect damages (cause by shock loads for example, when your trapped winch rope gets free and you car takes on speed for a second). if they break, they do that very fast. The only exception where I do not use steel shackles if I connect ropes.

7) The most risky part in a recovery is not the gear, if it is in a proper condition. It is the mountimg point on the car. Almost no 4x4 manufacturer tells you how much load the car can take (lucky, it is alway enough). Especially if it is not your car, you'll never know the condition of the mounting point. We pulled out cars which has a fat, big shackle atteched to the frame, just to find out a few weeks latter, that the frame where the shackle was mounted was only rust, falling aparat. We just had luck that nothing has happened. So, there can be hidden weak parts you do not know and do not see, so be careful. If these parts break they become dangerous. There is no benefit of having a soft shackle, if the car wents downhill, because its mounting point breaks and no one was standing in the risk area to save with a soft shackle.

That's why I only use my own equipment as I know its history and if it was used properly or not. If I help others, then only after thoroughly checking the mounting points. A rest of risk will always remain. If everybody around sticks to the security rules, the risk that bad things happen to persons will reduced considerably.

The interesting thing is, that you need for almost every danger thing you do in profession an education and a test to proof that you can handle that. In 4x4 you can by a 12 t truck, get it stucked and start to hang this load on a rope and start the action without any knowledge what you're doing. I strongly recommend to get a proper education on this, if you plan to do recoveries. There are a lot of experienced people around. I had the opportunity to learn a lot from a forestry guy who is responsible for all the forest gear in his section and who participates in tests and development of forest equipment. I'm glad, that I could experience from his theoretical and practical knowledge. Another bunch of good people are the one who do trophys etc on a regular basis or maybe on a professional level. Look out for such a guys, because your 70,000 € car may hang on a 50 € rope sometimes in the future....(considering you got you familiy out of the area of risk already, because thy are priceless, of course)....

BTW, you should look at information on how to estimate the real load you need to pull depending on where you get stuck. There were measurements of the real load available for different situations and at different angles. You'll see, looking at these numbers, that you have less weight to pull as most people think.

Cheers
AWo
I agree with most of what you say. Having built power lines for 12 years I am aware and have witnessed what happens when a steel winch rope or bow shackle fails. I personally think that synthetic winch ropes and soft shackles are far safer for non and experienced users for recovery situation, yes steel ropes and steel shackles are far more durable in harsh conditions but if looked after properly synthetic ropes and shackles are good enough to last years.
Synthetic ropes weight saving, ease of handling, less volume to store as synthetic ropes are stronger than comparable size steel ropes and the fact people are less likely to be maimed or killed outweigh their downsides
I agree with you that the way to go is a training course for people with no experience of winching and recovery This is where Ineos could be proactive and maybe offer a course or vouchers so people at least get a basic understanding of what’s involved.
To drive a car you have to take training and a test. To buy a winch or a chainsaw or any many other piece of dangerous machinery no training or test is required and least not in the U.K. anyway. In fact I know quite a few people who’ve gone out and bought tractors and equipment for their large gardens and hobby farms with absolutely no clue how to use that equipment. As someone who’s been wrapped around an auger on the back of a tractor as a young man I’m fully aware of the consequences of not being fully versed or safety aware ! Hopefully Grenadier drivers who optioned the winch take it upon themselves to get informed on its use. 👍🏼
 
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muxmax

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We had a little chat in the DACH-section that started with a question of recovery tools and their suppliers in DACH and now has turned into a more fundamental discussion about winch recovery and tools for that. So I repeat my last post here to give everyone the chance to partcipate:

I basically see it the same way you do. On the one hand, I don't want to pack my boot full of expensive gadgets that I'm actually only going to drive around with. On the other hand, I've been in "having is better than needing" mode ever since I joined the Bundeswehr. And it would be enough for me if I could pull someone out of the mud once in my life and save their day. But that's why it should only be what is moderately necessary. I'm thinking of a tree harness, pulley, rope extension and soft shackle. I also find the idea of the bridle convincing, so it will probably have to be included in the kit. What I still don't quite understand is what exactly you need the recovery straps for, especially three @Greasemonkey, if you have a rope extension. As a bridle, I rather imagine a rope, because I imagine that the effect shown in Pepper's video (L2SFBC - Robert Pepper - auto journo. What you don't know about 4X4 bridles (equalisers)) , that the load is better distributed with a one-piece bridle than with a bridle made of, for example, two belts, can be better achieved with a round rope than with a flat belt. The bridle must have play in the shackle so that the load is still distributed to both points when pulled at an angle. This should work better with a round rope bridle than with a belt (so much for the theory of a clueless person).
 

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I think you misunderstood me. I only ever use a 7m recovery belt as a 3.5m bridle on a vehicle. Since one vehicle pulls and one is pulled, you ideally need 2 belts. In addition, with 3 belts you have different options. Tree anchor strap, deflection and extension. The loops on the belts are large enough to slide on both a rope and a flat belt.
 

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Three belts would work with one as a tree protector as that’s all they are anyway! A webbing strap sold as as a tree protector so they can charge more i suppose.
I’ll be using webbing straps as bridals because I already have them. But on top of that I’ve been making soft shackles during my convalescents and I’ll add a large diameter recovery ring and extra ropes that i already have as the winch rope is short.
I have a tow rope I’ve just slid onto a webbing strap to illustrate the bridal. Photo taken on my very empty driveway awaiting the much anticipated Grenadier IMG_1599.jpegIMG_1600.jpeg
 

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We had a little chat in the DACH-section that started with a question of recovery tools and their suppliers in DACH and now has turned into a more fundamental discussion about winch recovery and tools for that. So I repeat my last post here to give everyone the chance to partcipate:

I basically see it the same way you do. On the one hand, I don't want to pack my boot full of expensive gadgets that I'm actually only going to drive around with. On the other hand, I've been in "having is better than needing" mode ever since I joined the Bundeswehr. And it would be enough for me if I could pull someone out of the mud once in my life and save their day. But that's why it should only be what is moderately necessary. I'm thinking of a tree harness, pulley, rope extension and soft shackle. I also find the idea of the bridle convincing, so it will probably have to be included in the kit. What I still don't quite understand is what exactly you need the recovery straps for, especially three @Greasemonkey, if you have a rope extension. As a bridle, I rather imagine a rope, because I imagine that the effect shown in Pepper's video (L2SFBC - Robert Pepper - auto journo. What you don't know about 4X4 bridles (equalisers)) , that the load is better distributed with a one-piece bridle than with a bridle made of, for example, two belts, can be better achieved with a round rope than with a flat belt. The bridle must have play in the shackle so that the load is still distributed to both points when pulled at an angle. This should work better with a round rope bridle than with a belt (so much for the theory of a clueless person).
This one is a little bit confusing without more context. I’d equip for the following in terms of lines:

  • Winch recoveries: the basic requirements being a winch extension rope and a utility rope (which can double as an equaliser/bridle for recovering another vehicle, or as a tree protector/anchor) and 3 x shackles. These ropes should have minimal stretch. I wouldn‘t bridle the Gren as a double line pull using the winch extension rope is preferable to a straight pull, depending on the situation of course.
  • Kinetic recoveries: utility rope as above (equaliser/bridle), kinetic rope and 3 x shackles. The utility rope should have minimal stretch, the kinetic rope ideally ~30% stretch. I would bridle the vehicle being recovered and attach to a rear recovery hitch on the towing vehicle.
  • Towed recoveries: while it is possible to static tow with the above winch extension rope, it is worth considering a dedicated low recoil sleeved/abrasion resistant tow rope, which will be of a more convenient length and durability. These can be pretty heavy to lug around though. Static tow may also benefit from the utility rope/equaliser depending on context.
  • In terms of snatch strap versus kinetic rope I’m going for the latter based on it’s claim to offer more stretch (30% versus 20%). Not that I’ve ever had an issue with straps.
 
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