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Americas The big May 17 Announcement / Pricing / Discussion thread.

DDG

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No doubt at all that there are emotions triggered when a scenario like this pits one’s wants versus one’s values. I find a ton of very useful thoughts in what several others have said. This really is an excellent forum of deep thinking and passionate people. Thank you all for those great counter points. I will continue to weigh those against the other thoughts of my own. There is no ill intent in any of what I have shared. Perhaps some frustration when I want to feel a more unrestrained enthusiasm for this. Again, thank you all for reading and your feedback. Much respect and appreciation to each of you!
 
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AnD3rew

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That’s what puts me off the used ones @BD1 - it is a great rig and super viable for touring, and as @jeremy_matrix said earlier, it’s a very good competitor to the Gren especially a used one. But, the interiors are very posh and they have too many luxury features for me. I know it won’t matter if the crocodile foreskin leather covered induction charger stops working on me, in terms of the operation of the vehicle. But if it’s meant to work and it doesn’t, it will irritate me and I’ll invest in fixing it. And those little luxury features are plentiful. They also have the wrong wheels every time, and I actually don’t know how easy it would be to swap to steel rims that are smaller and more fit for purpose off road as all the G’s I’ve seen in Canada have big fancy brakes. This may be a bigger problem up here - they only really seem to sell the most “bling” pro musician or athlete versions here.

Meanwhile, our Army in Canada gets the PERFECT spec’d G wagen for me, and for around $50k each (assuming no armour and such) — but those don’t hit the used market until they are beyond their last legs and are going at government surplus auction. I’ve not seen them actually go yet - they are too new - but that might change in a few years.
You might be surprised. The Australian army, which has also been buying the basic versions of G Wagen has been auctioning off their fleet of very elderly Perenties (custom defenders with Isuzu motors) and they have been going for prices well out of alignment with the age and condition of these very well used vehicles, they don’t even have ignition locks
 

DaveB

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You might be surprised. The Australian army, which has also been buying the basic versions of G Wagen has been auctioning off their fleet of very elderly Perenties (custom defenders with Isuzu motors) and they have been going for prices well out of alignment with the age and condition of these very well used vehicles, they don’t even have ignition locks
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MileHigh

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What I really want is a Toyota Landcrusier, and I thought this would be about to as close to that idea and maybe have some panache to it too- but the ‘stealth’ of the LandCruuser also really intrigued me. What I see Ineos doing is try to push this thing upscale to compete with the Gwagen- or maybe they realize that people are going to do that. I don’t want a Gwagen. I definately don’t want 2/3 of one and then get lumped in with those @ss-Clowns. You could have a multi Gwagen pile-up in my neighborhood. I’d rather drive a 4Runner and thought to be a ‘pauper’, than to get an IG and people think I couldn’t afford a Gwagen. If the 4Runner comes with that base engine and a five speed…. Interesting.

Of course the $40K I save would go a long ways towards a small plane for my son that is getting his PPL and working towards professional flight.
 

ChasingOurTrunks

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1990_land_rover_defender_6x6_160631981707b6f12.jpg
That’s a steal at under $50k which appears to be what it sold for if I’m reading that correctly. @AnD3rew Im guessing from your comment that the Aussie ones are going for a pretty penny given their age? The idea of an Isuzu-powered defender gets me very excited!
 
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That’s a steal at under $50k which appears to be what it sold for if I’m reading that correctly. @AnD3rew Im guessing from your comment that the Aussie ones are going for a pretty penny given their age? The idea of an Isuzu-powered defender gets me very excited!
Sold at the end of 2020. Very different used car market in the US these days
 

ChasingOurTrunks

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Sold at the end of 2020. Very different used car market in the US these days
Ah yes that explains it. That was before the Large Hadron Collider did that thing that put us in the mirror-verse where used cars inexplicably cost more than new ones in some cases.
 

DaBull

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I think the Rolex analogy is a great one. I perceive little value in a $250 Seiko, but I perceive high value in Rolex stainless sport watches such as Submariner / Sea Dweller / Daytona.

To me the Grenadier is like a Rolex sports/tool watch: completely unnecessary, over engineered, over built for the task, a beautiful balanced functional design and it will be relatively uncommon.
Like a Rolex, A Grenadier will be a coveted item. I purchased a 2020 First Edition Defender because of the heritage that it represented. Like everyone, I wished the styling was more old Defender than New Defender. After having it for 2 1/2 Years I have come to appreciate the restyle and smile and marvel everyday at what an incredibly refined and high performance capable 50/50 on-road / off-road vehicle it is. I am truly in love with it and smile every time I walk out the door to step inside and drive. Why am I now buying a Grenadier, because it harks back to the main reason I purchased my new defender, and that is the old defender heritage being brought forward by Sir Jim. I will have the luxury of taking ownership of my new Grenadier and then making a decision which one to keep. Likely to be the Grenadier as I can always go back and purchase another new defender. Like a Rolex the Grenadier is purposely built and over engineered, which I appreciate. Owning a Rolex GMT Master puts a smile in my step everyday because of the build quality. The fact it has doubled in value is a bonus, buy not the reason I bought one. I appreciated what Sir Jim has created and the build quality that I experienced in my test drive at the Santa Clarita - Los Angeles event.
That's why I am buying it. If it goes up in value, that just a bonus and not the reason I am buying. No matter what you buy in life, try to buy something that is quality and that puts a smile on your face everyday. It's worth every penny! DaBull
 

AnD3rew

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That’s a steal at under $50k which appears to be what it sold for if I’m reading that correctly. @AnD3rew Im guessing from your comment that the Aussie ones are going for a pretty penny given their age? The idea of an Isuzu-powered defender gets me very excited!
Yes serious money considering they are generally 20+ years old, 20 hard years of being flogged through the bush by grunts. The ISUZU motors probably being the main reason they had such long lives.
 
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Did you spec the inverter? I played around with the configurator a bit, and can spec winch and premium sound on a base station wagon so long as I skip the inverter.
Honestly i can’t remember, I may have so I’ll have to go back and double check
 
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You are certainly correct on that gap and I can see how my post would give you the impression that I was saying only folks who can afford private jets can afford a gren. That’s not what I meant and I was intentional with my words for that reason - “flown private more than I have” — I was specifically thinking about some folks I know who have tons of capital and invest in businesses and are in the “millionaire” to “multi, multi millionaire” level. I know these folks have flown private — a Board of Directors charters a private jet to go to a retreat/board meeting somewhere tropical, or they all fly together to assess the next project that’s going to be making them money. They don’t own the jets — there’s a few more “Multi’s” before “millionaire” to reach that class! — but they have flown private more than I have (my number of times on a private jet is at, and will likely remain at, zero). And these folks have lots of capital available. They don’t “work” for a living in the traditional sense - they “own” for a living, and that’s the start of the economic class of people who can easily pay cash for a Grenadier.

I contrast that with the next richest group, right below the “owner” group I just spoke of: the professional class - doctors, engineers, etc. Not too many of them make north of $300k, and those that do often are in very high cost of living areas - Vancouver and Toronto, for instance - and many will be carrying mortgages on homes worth millions in our crazy market. That puts a damper on free cash flow where even that group would have to think twice about taking on a $2300/month car payment; there’s lots of Range Rovers and G Wagens around so obviously some folks have the kind of resources to spend big on cars, but it’s a pretty small market and not at all reflective of the “typical” Canadian.

Very, very few of us have $130k cash to spend on a car. We might have that in non liquid assets, like homes and stocks, but that becomes a very different sort of decision. Some people will sell a bunch of their Apple shares to invest in a Grenadier. Not very many.

So, I think my point stands — if this was a sub-6 figure car and was priced proportionally to the competition like it is in other countries, then the type of person who would be looking at a Defender or a nice Jeep would also be looking at the Grenadier, and the Grenadier would come up as the top pick technically which would, for many people, justify paying a bit more for it. This is the situation in the USA in my opinion.

But at these prices in Canada, they will be attracting the type of person who is looking at Range Rovers and G-Wagens. That’s a different sector of our population, and since they are already served by the “Luxury” SUVs that come with 22” wheels, lots of leather, high technology, and a premium brand identity, it’s too bad the Gren is playing alongside them in Canada instead of being at the top of the pack of the kinds of cars middle class folks can actually consider.
I appreciate your clarification and for the record I drove my 2018 G63 to the IG test ride event and I daily drive a modestly modded Gladiator Rubicon. I’m looking for a vehicle that I’m comfortable having my dog in as well as taking my GF to dinner and the IG appears to fit that bill but I acknowledge that I have been very fortunate to be able to make that kind of choice. But I’ll never fly private no matter how many digits my net worth ends up 😂
 
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I keep coming back to this conundrum with the N American pricing announcement.. I can’t help but feel invested in this whole venture. (I’m the guy who bought the $200 scale model and a few of the very early and rare hoodies and other gear). Kept saved photos on my phone Lock Screen for a couple years. I’m sure there are many of us who were initially 1000% on board. That has been me.
Frankly I could AFFORD a dozen Grenadiers. No exaggeration. The money isn’t the issue. The value is the problem. No matter what anyone claims; no matter how warm and fuzzy they feel about what they’ve wrought. They have not earned that value yet with the grenadier. Quite to the contrary actually. The content isn’t there. The capability (while certainly adequate) is not extraordinary. If it is, they have not shown that in any way. Is there some hidden performance mode that they’re hiding? An extra 250 lb/ft of torque? Maybe the mileage is 50% higher than the EPA suggests? Where is the value proposition hiding that makes this vehicle the equal of others with proven ability, content, performance, equipment? I can’t even find the words to say how badly I want the Grenadier to be worth these prices! I’m grateful that many of you seem to be seeing the same thing. My heart wants to say “screw value” but that’s not how I got here; and I like it here.
There is a bit of a disconnect occurring with how others are seeing these prices. I did the Australian and Euro comparison. Add taxes and registration (our version of “on road costs”) and this is at minimum a 25-30% increase in what other markets are paying. And Canada! Sheesh!

So as a voice of one of those who owns a new G Wagen ($167k) and a Defender 110 V8 Carpathian Edition ($128k)..in my barn now. Happily paid those prices due to product CONTENT, CAPABILITY, REPUTATION, etc. Those are both totally luxury SUVs. Decked out with every fancy tech thing. Over 500 hp each. All that said..I paid the price based on their value. Every one of those Gs and Defenders has easily and quickly sold in the US.

Now the Grenadier. It’s an amazing idea. I love the low tech concept. The heavy duty engineering thought that went in to it is wonderful. All of that does not add up to value UNTIL it is proven. It doesn’t work that way. Reputation and proven ability must be established. If not every little glitch and errant vibration and annoying electronic buzzer will undermine it. At these inflated prices they won’t be building a following.

So from a guy who was 1000% on board to buy one and let it prove itself; I’m not going to. Costs me nothing to skip it. The five or six others that would look to me to pull that trigger likely won’t either. None of that is the end of Ineos..but I sure don’t like their chances if I can feel this way. Scares the hell out of me for them in all honesty. At least in the North American market. Clearly Ineos does not need this market. They’ve made that abundantly clear here.

If they come back later and discount it, will that fix anything? Not likely. One chance for first impressions is real. To think what it would have to be to justify the pricing is too high a hurdle. A stripped out economy 4x4 can sell for a premium, but it can not succeed at this asking price, here and now.
When did you buy that new G wagon at MSRP?
 
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Like a Rolex, A Grenadier will be a coveted item. I purchased a 2020 First Edition Defender because of the heritage that it represented. Like everyone, I wished the styling was more old Defender than New Defender. After having it for 2 1/2 Years I have come to appreciate the restyle and smile and marvel everyday at what an incredibly refined and high performance capable 50/50 on-road / off-road vehicle it is. I am truly in love with it and smile every time I walk out the door to step inside and drive. Why am I now buying a Grenadier, because it harks back to the main reason I purchased my new defender, and that is the old defender heritage being brought forward by Sir Jim. I will have the luxury of taking ownership of my new Grenadier and then making a decision which one to keep. Likely to be the Grenadier as I can always go back and purchase another new defender. Like a Rolex the Grenadier is purposely built and over engineered, which I appreciate. Owning a Rolex GMT Master puts a smile in my step everyday because of the build quality. The fact it has doubled in value is a bonus, buy not the reason I bought one. I appreciated what Sir Jim has created and the build quality that I experienced in my test drive at the Santa Clarita - Los Angeles event.
That's why I am buying it. If it goes up in value, that just a bonus and not the reason I am buying. No matter what you buy in life, try to buy something that is quality and that puts a smile on your face everyday. It's worth every penny! DaBull
Good analogy! I’ve got a healthy stable that all went through the roof in the last few years. I had several friends mention I should sell them, not a chance, they are not investments, they are feel good appendages 👍
 

ChasingOurTrunks

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I appreciate your clarification and for the record I drove my 2018 G63 to the IG test ride event and I daily drive a modestly modded Gladiator Rubicon. I’m looking for a vehicle that I’m comfortable having my dog in as well as taking my GF to dinner and the IG appears to fit that bill but I acknowledge that I have been very fortunate to be able to make that kind of choice. But I’ll never fly private no matter how many digits my net worth ends up 😂

I am with you there. If I ever hit the lotto I might be in a place where I could do a “treat yo’ self” one time private jet flight but I’d likely spend the money on a Grenadier instead. Oh and another Wrangler. And a G wagen - mid 90s era. Oh, and a classic defender. And a new Defender. And a Series II; and I’d best add on an original Willy’s to the stable. And mustn’t forget the land cruisers, I’d have one of each of those. And…well, I’d keep going but by the time I got through my car list I’d probably have hit the limit of the jackpot number and I’ve not even started on the motorbikes I would suddenly “need” yet!!

Who needs a jet anyway?!?

I appreciate you identifying how my original post seemed so I could clarify! Clear is kind as they say.

I also want to be clear that my comments on class are in no way meant to be a judgment — folks who can easily buy nice cars are successful in their chosen paths and I celebrate that success for them! My chosen path has been public service (higher education), and I’ve had wonderful success in that, but it’s just not the industry to make big bucks, and that’s OK. I’m one of those lucky folks who gets to do a job that makes a positive difference for people and I get do live that purpose every day, and I wouldn’t trade that for all the Gren’s in the world. At the same time, folks who have been successful and can afford one, two, or more really nice cars - I believe they’ve made the world better too. They have run small to medium businesses that have give folks jobs, generally created prosperity for others, and often delivered valuable services and supports for critical industries that make the world go round. It’s expensive to dig a hole in the ground and get the lithium for the electric cars and such so I’m glad there are folks willing to risk capital to make it happen in exchange for good profit. For the humans who chose to spend their time doing that work in this “owner class” that I referred to, and getting well paid for it, I think that’s great too. I hope none of my comments came off as judgmental or jealous. I’m very happy with how much I earn for my work (and secretly would do it for free), but my comments were my attempt to “perspective take” for the majority based on the numbers of what people typically earn here in Canada.

I’m thrilled there are so many here who can afford to invest in this car and get great joy out of it, even if that’s a relatively small number in terms of total population — if not for your success, they’d be selling none of these at all, and that would mean the world is missing a critical tool for important work. Every Gren sold to a person who can afford it helps keep Ineos in business, and keeping Ineos in business means those brave folks with The Halo Trust (and countless other folks making the world better) can get a well built truck to help do the job.

Both can be true for me — I can be of the opinion that the Gren is priced a bit too high in my country, but still support that it needs to exist and hope that it’s a success.
 
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DDG

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When did you buy that new G wagon at MSRP?
I ordered it in 2018 for the new model in 2019 simply by asking for an allocation to spec myself. Ten month wait. I actually got a whopping $500 Mercedes loyalty discount because I had purchased a GLK 350 for my daughter. I’ve been pretty lucky over the years buying vehicles at the right time. It’s never directly benefitted me financially because I’ve never flipped a vehicle. The Mercedes dealer offered me over $225k for the G in early 2021 when they were selling for double MSRP. Mercedes had stopped producing their V8 that year. No one was sure if/when they’d restart. That was a weird period of time for sure.
 

Xrford

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For Canadian‘s who‘s builds exceed the $100,000 threshold and want too eek out a little more savings, I suggest that any of your selected options that can be easily be bolted on after, that you buy those parts after from the parts department, because if you buy them with the vehical your effectively paying an extra 20% due to the luxury tax in Canada. For my build I will be leaving off rock sliders,winch,roof rack,spare tire storage,rear door table and will purchase these after. As well,I also believe in BC you will save a little more due to the lower pst on goods vs vehicals. This will save me over $2000.00 in lux tax. It also leaves the door open for you to find the same or equivalent parts in the aftermarket for an even better price.
 
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Tazzieman

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Good analogy! I’ve got a healthy stable that all went through the roof in the last few years. I had several friends mention I should sell them, not a chance, they are not investments, they are feel good appendages 👍
Jewellery for men :)
Actually I rarely wear a watch. The sun or the phone tells me the time, or my wife.
I don't even wear my wedding band.
 

Krabby

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@ChasingOurTrunks if you need some help getting one of those military g-wagon, I know a group people. You see In 1972, a crack commando unit was sent to prison
by a military court for a crime they didn't commit.
These men promptly escaped from a maximum security stockade
to the Los Angeles underground.
Today, still wanted by the government they survive as soldiers of fortune.
If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them...
maybe you can hire The A-Team."



source: https://www.lyricsondemand.com/tvthemes/theateamlyrics.html
(Completely off topic and barely related, but my college roommate (class of '98) based his 2nd semester freshman year schedule on being able to watch reruns of The A-Team. Seriously.)
 

DaveB

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I am so pissed off.
I was expecting it to be a $40K back to basics budget 4WD
With lane keep assistant, autonomous braking, adaptive cruise control, premium sound system with a huge subwoofer, a 20,000 watt inverter, 14,000 lb ft of torque, 76 MPG, 137" tyres/tires, 27 electronic off road modes, 35,0000 lb winch with 4 miles of cable.
That's it
I am cancelling the order/reservation I never placed.
I can't afford anything over $41k and never could.
 
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