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Americas The big May 17 Announcement / Pricing / Discussion thread.

DaveB

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Absolutely - 100% finance isn’t required, and some number of people go shopping for cars with tens of thousands of bucks in their pocket for a down payment to reduce the financing amount. There’s lots of ways a person can make the numbers work for them, and that’s evidenced by the (admittedly small) number of G Wagens, Range Rovers, etc. on the roads here in Canada, so obviously there’s folks who can afford them, and who can also afford the Grenadier - but the Gren shouldn’t be playing in the class of Range Rovers and G Wagens.

When the average income in the country is $65k per year, folks who are buying G Wagens and Range Rovers are rich. This is distinct from the middle class — we’re buying Fords and Jeeps. The upper middle class — or those who are “just” normal middle class but willing to really focus resources because that’s how they choose to live — are buying Defenders at the lower end of the specs. But the Gren, at these Canadian prices, is out of reach of a lot of folks, even if they are upper middle class and focus their resources.

I think down south it’s much more “expensive 4x4 in the realm of middle- to upper-middle class affordability, but the Gren gives good value”. Up here the pricing makes it harder for the “good value” argument to stick.

And my overall point is — not many people in Canada have the kind of discretionary budget to spend $136k on a car. Lots more people have the ability to spend around $90k on a car, and that would proportionally be a more consistent price when compared to the competition and the way the Gren is priced in other markets.
Maybe it is an age thing as well.
Many of us are middle aged so 55-70 and so are not rich but are in a different financial situation as far as o mortgage or major costs and own vehicles outright to trade or sell.
here seems to be in NA a lot of younger people who want it.
I am generalising but it is what I have noticed.
 
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Maybe it is an age thing as well.
Many of us are middle aged so 55-70 and so are not rich but are in a different financial situation as far as o mortgage or major costs and own vehicles outright to trade or sell.
here seems to be in NA a lot of younger people who want it.
I am generalising but it is what I have noticed.
I am younger, but no mortgage, vehicles owned outright, good income. For me, it's a question of what I'm getting for the price tag, and what I can get elsewhere for my money.
 

Michael Gain

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Alright. Sat on it for 24hrs and we decided that we are out. Pricing has aggressively pushed us off of the monkey bars. We're going to try a different playground.

I'll still stalk the forum because now it's become ritual. Good luck to you brave NA souls that will stick it out. I pray that it's everything that you wanted and more.
 

ChasingOurTrunks

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Maybe it is an age thing as well.
Many of us are middle aged so 55-70 and so are not rich but are in a different financial situation as far as o mortgage or major costs and own vehicles outright to trade or sell.
here seems to be in NA a lot of younger people who want it.
I am generalising but it is what I have noticed.

That is an excellent point Dave. Dropping the mortgage payment and having other debts cleared out (a large number of my peers still have some student debt, particularly those who pursued graduate qualifications later in life for example) which is a more common scenario for folks closer to 60 than 30 makes a huge difference on the affordability calculations.
 
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Agree, I don’t think the guys are in any different position than we were in the rest of the world. We all thought and hoped it might be cheaper because it was “back to basics” when our pricing can out it was about the same amount higher than we hoped as it is for you. And there are a few factors.
1. Some features are “basic” compared to new SUVs but these trucks are engineered with tons of expensive extra steel and metal and paint etc and thay doen’t come cheap. I have a Thailand built Mitsubisha Pajero Sport right now, its a great car for the very reasonable price, but the metalwork is thin, you touch it and it dents, the paint is the thinnest I have ever seen, breath on it and it scratches and chips, the plastics look nice but all the chrome paint on them comes off at the slightest touch. The Grenadier is the opposite of that, plus top end engine and transmission etc.
2. None (or very few of us) actually want the stripped back, back to basics version. We tick all the accessories boxes and the price goes up accordingly. Go to any real competitors and add the leather and the diff locks and winches and sunroofs etc and watch the price go up.

No it’s not a bargain basement car, it’s not built like one either. Its a vehicle with a bit less bling (although you can add a fair bit) but a lot more substance, literally more substance.

this is a solid post.

what I'm also seeing is that many peeps want value. my response is if you want value buy a Mazda in any tier price point. as for jeeps and value vs the IG, lol, they're awful, noisy and an unreliable ride.
 
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I’m torn too between a TM and building up from the base. Plan is to sit down over the weekend and work through some options.
Thinking Think GIF by Rodney Dangerfield

lol
 
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What other driver assistance packages do you want?
It's doing everything but scratching your arse and picking your nose for you

None - if I wanted a half-baked homicidal computer nanny I would be buying a Tesla.

My point is that the Gren does not necessarily cost more to produce than a weaker but more computerized car. I have no clue how much it costs Ineos to fabricate the bodywork, chassis etc, but I'm guessing it might not be as much as Tesla/Rivian/Land Rover's software engineering budget.

Therefore, the argument that "the bodywork is really really strong and that's why it's expensive" isn't necessarily correct.

Also keep in mind that while lighter components might use less material, that also doesn't necessarily make them cheaper to produce.

I also get that the economy of scale here is totally different to the big car companies. I wouldn't even be surprised if Ineos was selling at cost in the US.
 

DaveB

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None - if I wanted a half-baked homicidal computer nanny I would be buying a Tesla.

My point is that the Gren does not necessarily cost more to produce than a weaker but more computerized car. I have no clue how much it costs Ineos to fabricate the bodywork, chassis etc, but I'm guessing it might not be as much as Tesla/Rivian/Land Rover's software engineering budget.

Therefore, the argument that "the bodywork is really really strong and that's why it's expensive" isn't necessarily correct.

Also keep in mind that while lighter components might use less material, that also doesn't necessarily make them cheaper to produce.

I also get that the economy of scale here is totally different to the big car companies. I wouldn't even be surprised if Ineos was selling at cost in the US.
Volume and numbers have more impact on unit cost than nearly anything else
 

DDG

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I keep coming back to this conundrum with the N American pricing announcement.. I can’t help but feel invested in this whole venture. (I’m the guy who bought the $200 scale model and a few of the very early and rare hoodies and other gear). Kept saved photos on my phone Lock Screen for a couple years. I’m sure there are many of us who were initially 1000% on board. That has been me.
Frankly I could AFFORD a dozen Grenadiers. No exaggeration. The money isn’t the issue. The value is the problem. No matter what anyone claims; no matter how warm and fuzzy they feel about what they’ve wrought. They have not earned that value yet with the grenadier. Quite to the contrary actually. The content isn’t there. The capability (while certainly adequate) is not extraordinary. If it is, they have not shown that in any way. Is there some hidden performance mode that they’re hiding? An extra 250 lb/ft of torque? Maybe the mileage is 50% higher than the EPA suggests? Where is the value proposition hiding that makes this vehicle the equal of others with proven ability, content, performance, equipment? I can’t even find the words to say how badly I want the Grenadier to be worth these prices! I’m grateful that many of you seem to be seeing the same thing. My heart wants to say “screw value” but that’s not how I got here; and I like it here.
There is a bit of a disconnect occurring with how others are seeing these prices. I did the Australian and Euro comparison. Add taxes and registration (our version of “on road costs”) and this is at minimum a 25-30% increase in what other markets are paying. And Canada! Sheesh!

So as a voice of one of those who owns a new G Wagen ($167k) and a Defender 110 V8 Carpathian Edition ($128k)..in my barn now. Happily paid those prices due to product CONTENT, CAPABILITY, REPUTATION, etc. Those are both totally luxury SUVs. Decked out with every fancy tech thing. Over 500 hp each. All that said..I paid the price based on their value. Every one of those Gs and Defenders has easily and quickly sold in the US.

Now the Grenadier. It’s an amazing idea. I love the low tech concept. The heavy duty engineering thought that went in to it is wonderful. All of that does not add up to value UNTIL it is proven. It doesn’t work that way. Reputation and proven ability must be established. If not every little glitch and errant vibration and annoying electronic buzzer will undermine it. At these inflated prices they won’t be building a following.

So from a guy who was 1000% on board to buy one and let it prove itself; I’m not going to. Costs me nothing to skip it. The five or six others that would look to me to pull that trigger likely won’t either. None of that is the end of Ineos..but I sure don’t like their chances if I can feel this way. Scares the hell out of me for them in all honesty. At least in the North American market. Clearly Ineos does not need this market. They’ve made that abundantly clear here.

If they come back later and discount it, will that fix anything? Not likely. One chance for first impressions is real. To think what it would have to be to justify the pricing is too high a hurdle. A stripped out economy 4x4 can sell for a premium, but it can not succeed at this asking price, here and now.
 

Davman

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I keep coming back to this conundrum with the N American pricing announcement.. I can’t help but feel invested in this whole venture. (I’m the guy who bought the $200 scale model and a few of the very early and rare hoodies and other gear). Kept saved photos on my phone Lock Screen for a couple years. I’m sure there are many of us who were initially 1000% on board. That has been me.
Frankly I could AFFORD a dozen Grenadiers. No exaggeration. The money isn’t the issue. The value is the problem. No matter what anyone claims; no matter how warm and fuzzy they feel about what they’ve wrought. They have not earned that value yet with the grenadier. Quite to the contrary actually. The content isn’t there. The capability (while certainly adequate) is not extraordinary. If it is, they have not shown that in any way. Is there some hidden performance mode that they’re hiding? An extra 250 lb/ft of torque? Maybe the mileage is 50% higher than the EPA suggests? Where is the value proposition hiding that makes this vehicle the equal of others with proven ability, content, performance, equipment? I can’t even find the words to say how badly I want the Grenadier to be worth these prices! I’m grateful that many of you seem to be seeing the same thing. My heart wants to say “screw value” but that’s not how I got here; and I like it here.
There is a bit of a disconnect occurring with how others are seeing these prices. I did the Australian and Euro comparison. Add taxes and registration (our version of “on road costs”) and this is at minimum a 25-30% increase in what other markets are paying. And Canada! Sheesh!

So as a voice of one of those who owns a new G Wagen ($167k) and a Defender 110 V8 Carpathian Edition ($128k)..in my barn now. Happily paid those prices due to product CONTENT, CAPABILITY, REPUTATION, etc. Those are both totally luxury SUVs. Decked out with every fancy tech thing. Over 500 hp each. All that said..I paid the price based on their value. Every one of those Gs and Defenders has easily and quickly sold in the US.

Now the Grenadier. It’s an amazing idea. I love the low tech concept. The heavy duty engineering thought that went in to it is wonderful. All of that does not add up to value UNTIL it is proven. It doesn’t work that way. Reputation and proven ability must be established. If not every little glitch and errant vibration and annoying electronic buzzer will undermine it. At these inflated prices they won’t be building a following.

So from a guy who was 1000% on board to buy one and let it prove itself; I’m not going to. Costs me nothing to skip it. The five or six others that would look to me to pull that trigger likely won’t either. None of that is the end of Ineos..but I sure don’t like their chances if I can feel this way. Scares the hell out of me for them in all honesty. At least in the North American market. Clearly Ineos does not need this market. They’ve made that abundantly clear here.

If they come back later and discount it, will that fix anything? Not likely. One chance for first impressions is real. To think what it would have to be to justify the pricing is too high a hurdle. A stripped out economy 4x4 can sell for a premium, but it can not succeed at this asking price, here and now.
DDG. I have loved reading your insights and benefitting from your perspectives.
You are obviously a passionate enthusiast of cars, which makes you a perfect fit in the forum, hopefully we don't lose you.
Your opinions here are well thought out and measured based on your wealth of experience.

However its probably fair to say that Ineos management, as well as the host of local industry consultants they are employing at the moment would completely disagree (in public at least) with your comments here. And I say that with all respect to you.
 
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Frankly I could AFFORD a dozen Grenadiers. No exaggeration. The money isn’t the issue. The value is the problem. [...] So as a voice of one of those who owns a new G Wagen ($167k) and a Defender 110 V8 Carpathian Edition ($128k)..in my barn now.

If you think of the Grenadier as a boutique limited production collector's vehicle, I think it is absolutely worth the asking price and the long term reliability is no longer a big concern. The G-Wagen and New Defender are cool in their own way, but they're mass produced soulless cars and can never be status symbols or collector's items in the same way, IMO.

(after all, the Gren is lovingly made by French artisans in Hambach!)

To be clear, I would prefer the Gren to be a high production utilitarian working vehicle at a lower price point. But if it's going to remain exclusive then the price makes more sense.

Right now, I could maybe be convinced to buy one IF I was confident that:
  • it would hold its value
  • I wouldn't trash it off road
If the price was $10k less then this would be an easier decision. I know it's not much in the scheme of things but it makes a big psychological difference.
 

ChasingOurTrunks

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Well written @DDG. The value proposition is, for all of us, totally subjective based on our own perspective in what we want/need. But as subjective as it is, it’s also undeniably speculative for all of us until there are a few thousand Gren’s with a few million miles over a few years.
 

Tazzieman

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The value is the problem.
OTOH people lash out and buy Rolex watches to wear to the opera and flash at other opera going if not loving types ;)
I wear $250 Seiko mechanical watches, nothing pricier - even though I could afford a Rolex.
To me , they are a massive waste of money.
Everybody has a different opinion, and emotional/irrational buying is not limited to the females of the species.
 

BD1

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I keep coming back to this conundrum with the N American pricing announcement.. I can’t help but feel invested in this whole venture. (I’m the guy who bought the $200 scale model and a few of the very early and rare hoodies and other gear). Kept saved photos on my phone Lock Screen for a couple years. I’m sure there are many of us who were initially 1000% on board. That has been me.
Frankly I could AFFORD a dozen Grenadiers. No exaggeration. The money isn’t the issue. The value is the problem. No matter what anyone claims; no matter how warm and fuzzy they feel about what they’ve wrought. They have not earned that value yet with the grenadier. Quite to the contrary actually. The content isn’t there. The capability (while certainly adequate) is not extraordinary. If it is, they have not shown that in any way. Is there some hidden performance mode that they’re hiding? An extra 250 lb/ft of torque? Maybe the mileage is 50% higher than the EPA suggests? Where is the value proposition hiding that makes this vehicle the equal of others with proven ability, content, performance, equipment? I can’t even find the words to say how badly I want the Grenadier to be worth these prices! I’m grateful that many of you seem to be seeing the same thing. My heart wants to say “screw value” but that’s not how I got here; and I like it here.
There is a bit of a disconnect occurring with how others are seeing these prices. I did the Australian and Euro comparison. Add taxes and registration (our version of “on road costs”) and this is at minimum a 25-30% increase in what other markets are paying. And Canada! Sheesh!

So as a voice of one of those who owns a new G Wagen ($167k) and a Defender 110 V8 Carpathian Edition ($128k)..in my barn now. Happily paid those prices due to product CONTENT, CAPABILITY, REPUTATION, etc. Those are both totally luxury SUVs. Decked out with every fancy tech thing. Over 500 hp each. All that said..I paid the price based on their value. Every one of those Gs and Defenders has easily and quickly sold in the US.

Now the Grenadier. It’s an amazing idea. I love the low tech concept. The heavy duty engineering thought that went in to it is wonderful. All of that does not add up to value UNTIL it is proven. It doesn’t work that way. Reputation and proven ability must be established. If not every little glitch and errant vibration and annoying electronic buzzer will undermine it. At these inflated prices they won’t be building a following.

So from a guy who was 1000% on board to buy one and let it prove itself; I’m not going to. Costs me nothing to skip it. The five or six others that would look to me to pull that trigger likely won’t either. None of that is the end of Ineos..but I sure don’t like their chances if I can feel this way. Scares the hell out of me for them in all honesty. At least in the North American market. Clearly Ineos does not need this market. They’ve made that abundantly clear here.

If they come back later and discount it, will that fix anything? Not likely. One chance for first impressions is real. To think what it would have to be to justify the pricing is too high a hurdle. A stripped out economy 4x4 can sell for a premium, but it can not succeed at this asking price, here and now.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.....of course everyone's perspective of value is different. I have a 2023 Defender that was $85K that I will be switching to a $85 Grenadier. The Defender is fine but lacks character. I can afford a $170K G Wagon but to me it is much lower value/dollar than the $85K Grenadier. For me the new G Wagon is a lot of extra money for a nicer but overdone interior.
 

Shopkeep

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OTOH people lash out and buy Rolex watches to wear to the opera and flash at other opera going if not loving types ;)
I wear $250 Seiko mechanical watches, nothing pricier - even though I could afford a Rolex.
To me , they are a massive waste of money.
Everybody has a different opinion, and emotional/irrational buying is not limited to the females of the species.
I think the Rolex analogy is a great one. I perceive little value in a $250 Seiko, but I perceive high value in Rolex stainless sport watches such as Submariner / Sea Dweller / Daytona.

To me the Grenadier is like a Rolex sports/tool watch: completely unnecessary, over engineered, over built for the task, a beautiful balanced functional design and it will be relatively uncommon.
 
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I have something that might be helpful to folks and it's exactly what Stu described (Hope your head is OK Stu!! You only have one so stop using it to test the structure of your Disco's doors, ok? They are strong enough!) and that's it's comparison with other vehicles.

Here's the assumptions on my analysis:

1) I built the cars from regional websites by "pretending" I was a customer in the United States, Canada, the U.K., Australia, and South Africa. My build was based on the "tool to do a job" analogy, which means in every case I had to add a few things over the base, but my goal was to add the minimum options necessary to each vehicle in each market to get them suitable for a basic scenario/use case, or as close as I could get to it. I defined that use case as follows: I want an off road vehicle that allows me to tow, has front and rear lockers (or the equivalent in the case of the LR), and has the ability to pop off a part of the roof to stand and take pictures. My reason for having that last one in this comparison is that it is the default state for one of the comparators (Jeep), so I might as well try to get as close to apples to apples. I did not add any other options unless I had no choice. All vehicles are petrol with automatic transmissions - note that the jeep can be had for less with a manual, which is actually preferable for some, but again apples to apples. I should add though, that some vehicles come with a LOT more stuff in the "base" price -- the Land Rover interior has premium audio and finishes by default, for instance, whereas those are options on the other marques.

2) The analysis isn't perfect. Not all packages are the same around the world; for instance I was unable to get a price from the Australian website for a Defender, so I had to guesstimate how much the options I added (tow package and locker systems) would cost from third party data, so I'm probably a bit off there. Another example is that the Jeep in both Canada and the USA come with a soft top, so I added the hard top; this appears to be default in the UK and Australia. In Canada, you cannot just get the tow package, it comes with the high load aux switches, whereas in the USA you can do the tow package without the aux switches. So, it's not perfect because of these regional configurator differences, but it's not a terrible "dead reckoning".

3) Finally, the actual dollar price is pretty irrelevant; the vehicle is not priced based on exchange rates but instead on what the local market will bear. To that end, all of the numbers are expressed in the local currency. With that thought, we needed a benchmark, so I picked the Big Mac from McDonalds, also expressed in local currency. This can be thought of as your opportunity cost -- "How many Big Macs could I get if instead of buying (model) of vehicle, I went to McDonalds?".

I think that covers most of the context, here are the numbers:

Prices of Various Vehicles Expressed in Local Currency

VehicleUSACanadaUKAustraliaSouth Africa
Wrangler$56,630$65,275£62,520$98,534R1,099,900
Gladiator$55,075$67,225£N/A$94,212R1,329,900
Defender$67,875$82,730£70,925$87,830R1,816,600
Grenadier$77,300$101,084£61,970$104,385R1,584,635
Big Mac$5.78$6.70£3.81$6.48R47.24



How Many Big Macs Can I Buy For The Price Of That Car?

VehicleUSACanadaUKAustraliaSouth Africa
Wrangler9,797.69,742.516,409.515,205.923,283.2
Gladiator9,528.510,033.6N/A14,538.928,152.0
Defender11,743.112,347.818,615.513,554.038,454.7
Grenadier13,373.715,087.216,265.115,108.833,544.3

So what does the analysis above show? Well, the first blush is that my reaction to the Canadian pricing was not unfair -- the biggest affordability jump from the competition is in Canada. I could get 2,739.4 Big Macs for the money I would save buying the Defender instead of the Grenadier. For my American friends, you would be able to get only 1,630.6 Big Macs for the money you'd save buying the Defender instead of the Gren. In the UK, the Defender would actually mean you could get 2,350 Big Macs if you purchased the Gren instead of the Defender. Australians can get 1554.8 Big Macs if they "skimp" and buy the Defender instead of the Gren. South Africans -- apart from getting stupid good deals on Big Macs -- would be able to buy 4,910 Big Macs if they buy the Gren instead of the Defender.

So, it seems like in some places, the Gren is the value option. In other places, like the ones whose flag is adorned with a Maple Leaf, it's exorbitantly more expensive than the competition. It also shows that dollar for dollar, the Gren is priced similarly in the USA and Australia; less than 100 Big Macs isn't a lot on a purchase of this size. In Europe and South Africa, the Gren is a relative steal of a deal.

Personally, if I were in America, I'd still be in - the value is there. But in Canada, it is not. Each of these vehicles represents some sort of compromise on the Gren, but as I've said earlier in this thread, I can compromise on a lot for 2739 Big Macs. That's 3 years worth of dinners' difference between what a Canadian pays for the Gren as compared to what an American pays for the Gren, versus the other options.

This was a quick comparison, and I could easily have made mistakes on the numbers and I'm totally open to folks correcting any of the above based on their own analysis; good science needs repeatability so if others are willing to do a similar experiment and post the results, that would be awesome.
I think you nailed it. I think if we had the same delta between the defender and the IG as you have it in the UK, we would have been happy. To have it cost $10K more than the defender, well that's a bitter pill. So, in the UK, the IG IA absolutely the better value. How then does it cost about $15,000 more in the US than in the UK, especially with weakness in the pound?

Not sure, how that math flipped give our low import duties on passenger vehicles.
 

ChasingOurTrunks

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That’s what puts me off the used ones @BD1 - it is a great rig and super viable for touring, and as @jeremy_matrix said earlier, it’s a very good competitor to the Gren especially a used one. But, the interiors are very posh and they have too many luxury features for me. I know it won’t matter if the crocodile foreskin leather covered induction charger stops working on me, in terms of the operation of the vehicle. But if it’s meant to work and it doesn’t, it will irritate me and I’ll invest in fixing it. And those little luxury features are plentiful. They also have the wrong wheels every time, and I actually don’t know how easy it would be to swap to steel rims that are smaller and more fit for purpose off road as all the G’s I’ve seen in Canada have big fancy brakes. This may be a bigger problem up here - they only really seem to sell the most “bling” pro musician or athlete versions here.

Meanwhile, our Army in Canada gets the PERFECT spec’d G wagen for me, and for around $50k each (assuming no armour and such) — but those don’t hit the used market until they are beyond their last legs and are going at government surplus auction. I’ve not seen them actually go yet - they are too new - but that might change in a few years.
 
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I think the Rolex analogy is a great one. I perceive little value in a $250 Seiko, but I perceive high value in Rolex stainless sport watches such as Submariner / Sea Dweller / Daytona.

To me the Grenadier is like a Rolex sports/tool watch: completely unnecessary, over engineered, over built for the task, a beautiful balanced functional design and it will be relatively uncommon.
Bingo!
 

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@ChasingOurTrunks if you need some help getting one of those military g-wagon, I know a group people. You see In 1972, a crack commando unit was sent to prison
by a military court for a crime they didn't commit.
These men promptly escaped from a maximum security stockade
to the Los Angeles underground.
Today, still wanted by the government they survive as soldiers of fortune.
If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them...
maybe you can hire The A-Team."



source: https://www.lyricsondemand.com/tvthemes/theateamlyrics.html
 
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