(The battery and monitor thread )Car dead in the middle of the woods

[das mo]

Hi all.

Car is dead.

Battery was at 50% 2 hours back.
We now packed all together and car does not start.

Is there an Ineos support hotline I can call on a Sunday?

Thanks

 

[MarkH]

But, only if the cars ECU tells the smart alternatoir to tun on and/or your voltage boosting smart device communicates its need of amps to the ECU.
The smart alternator is actually a wee bit of a thicko and needs telling ... the question is here, in the Grenny, who is telling it ?

Yes, the 250SE's ignition wire turns the charger on at engine start so it doesn't need to rely on sensing the smart alternator's voltage to start charging. It'll take whatever voltage is there, boost it and start drawing amps from the starter. This will signal the ECU/BCM to ramp up the smart alternator.

 

[Tazzieman]

Until these wiring/charging mysteries are solved I think it's wise to just buy a Noco or similar jumpstarter.

 

[AnD3rew]

Yes, the 250SE's ignition wire turns the charger on at engine start so it doesn't need to rely on sensing the smart alternator's voltage to start charging. It'll take whatever voltage is there, boost it and start drawing amps from the starter. This will signal the ECU/BCM to ramp up the smart alternator.

So as I understand it, there is a set of 3 wires terminated in the battery compartment for “compressor/dust gun” I think this is a postive from battery, a ground wire and an ignition wire (presumably for a relay) Do those wiser than me think we could just connect that ignition wire to the alternator wire on the Smartpass?

 

[CB]

When moving to a Lithium service battery you remove the Smartpass and just use the 250SE or Redarc and a VSR. Carry a Noco jump starter to replace start assist.

Would something like this work as a replacement for the service battery? A lithium Ion starting/deep cycle battery.

DL+ 12v 135Ah Dual Purpose 1000CCA Starter Battery Plus Deep Cycle Performance

DL+ 12v 135Ah LiFePO4 Golf Cart & 1000CCA Automotive Battery. Free charger with 11 year warranty. 135 Amp Hours of deep cycle Dakota Lithium performance.

dakotalithium.com

 

[Miki]

Would something like this work as a replacement for the service battery? A lithium Ion starting/deep cycle battery.

DL+ 12v 135Ah Dual Purpose 1000CCA Starter Battery Plus Deep Cycle Performance

DL+ 12v 135Ah LiFePO4 Golf Cart & 1000CCA Automotive Battery. Free charger with 11 year warranty. 135 Amp Hours of deep cycle Dakota Lithium performance.

dakotalithium.com

Interesting ....

Why do you think this would be better ?

 

[MarkH]

So as I understand it, there is a set of 3 wires terminated in the battery compartment for “compressor/dust gun” I think this is a postive from battery, a ground wire and an ignition wire (presumably for a relay) Do those wiser than me think we could just connect that ignition wire to the alternator wire on the Smartpass?

If the wire goes live with ignition it should work, or use a fuse tap on a 5A ignition feed in the fuse box nearby, e.g. power/heated mirrors.

 

[MarkH]

Would something like this work as a replacement for the service battery? A lithium Ion starting/deep cycle battery.

DL+ 12v 135Ah Dual Purpose 1000CCA Starter Battery Plus Deep Cycle Performance

DL+ 12v 135Ah LiFePO4 Golf Cart & 1000CCA Automotive Battery. Free charger with 11 year warranty. 135 Amp Hours of deep cycle Dakota Lithium performance.

dakotalithium.com

You'd need to check the height of the service battery/space but looks like it'd fit. I'd remove the Smartpass and use either a Ctek 250SE (20A), Victron Orion (30A) or a Redarc (25/40/50A), bigger the better. You lose start assist but a jump starter fixes that. The starter is less likely to drain anyway with no fridge running off the 12V boot socket, run the fridge direct from the lithium. You also lose the ability to power the fridge from the alternator while on the move via the Smartpass load terminal, but an automotive relay can fix this.
A Renogy 100Ah should fit and would be a cheaper option, and would suit running a 40-50L fridge.
If you also want to run solar use the 250SE or the Redarc.
You'd probably get a few hundred selling the Smartpass, they're not cheap.

 

[AnD3rew]

You'd need to check the height of the service battery/space but looks like it'd fit. I'd remove the Smartpass and use either a Ctek 250SE (20A), Victron Orion (30A) or a Redarc (25/40/50A), bigger the better. You lose start assist but a jump starter fixes that. The starter is less likely to drain anyway with no fridge running off the 12V boot socket, run the fridge direct from the lithium. You also lose the ability to power the fridge from the alternator while on the move via the Smartpass load terminal, but an automotive relay can fix this.
A Renogy 100Ah should fit and would be a cheaper option, and would suit running a 40-50L fridge.
If you also want to run solar use the 250SE or the Redarc.
You'd probably get a few hundred selling the Smartpass, they're not cheap.

Why would you remove the Smartpass? Smartpass plus D250SE is lithium compatible and can charge at up to 140A in combination

 

[DenisM]

Why would you remove the Smartpass? Smartpass plus D250SE is lithium compatible and can charge at up to 140A in combination

Perhaps because some LiFeP04 batteries are restricted in terms of the max. input charge current.... 140 Amps is a fair "wack!

 

[Davman]

You'd need to check the height of the service battery/space but looks like it'd fit. I'd remove the Smartpass and use either a Ctek 250SE (20A), Victron Orion (30A) or a Redarc (25/40/50A), bigger the better. You lose start assist but a jump starter fixes that. The starter is less likely to drain anyway with no fridge running off the 12V boot socket, run the fridge direct from the lithium. You also lose the ability to power the fridge from the alternator while on the move via the Smartpass load terminal, but an automotive relay can fix this.
A Renogy 100Ah should fit and would be a cheaper option, and would suit running a 40-50L fridge.
If you also want to run solar use the 250SE or the Redarc.
You'd probably get a few hundred selling the Smartpass, they're not cheap.

Renogy 100A LifePo4 and Redarc BCDC1240 is what I have to put in mine.

 

[AnD3rew]

Perhaps because some LiFeP04 batteries are restricted in terms of the max. input charge current.... 140 Amps is a fair "wack!

Fair point, although you can find them both that have inbuilt overcharge protection and that can take over 150A charge rate.

 

[MarkH]

Why would you remove the Smartpass? Smartpass plus D250SE is lithium compatible and can charge at up to 140A in combination

Most sub 200Ah drop-ins are limited to 100A charging. Some might accept 125A continuous but size/height of battery could be an issue.
Not a fan of stressing the alternator and in most setups you just don't need to, especially if using the larger DC chargers. Most would likely use solar to maintain when camped up so typically you're only recovering 1 night's usage with the alternator.
Also not sure how Start Assist would go with your run of the mill lithium. Might cause the battery's BMS to shut down.

 

[AnD3rew]

Most sub 200Ah drop-ins are limited to 100A charging. Some might accept 125A continuous but size/height of battery could be an issue.
Not a fan of stressing the alternator and in most setups you just don't need to, especially if using the larger DC chargers. Most would likely use solar to maintain when camped up so typically you're only recovering 1 night's usage with the alternator.
Also not sure how Start Assist would go with your run of the mill lithium. Might cause the battery's BMS to shut down.

Just saw a 150AH one that accepts 150A continuous and has built in overcharge protection

 

[MarkH]

Just saw a 150AH one that accepts 150A continuous and has built in overcharge protection

Yeah but the price, need to be a reputable brand.

 

[CB]

Interesting ....

Why do you think this would be better ?

First I am no expert on the subject, however, I have been following this thread and have watched numerous videos on the subject, mostly posted by Australians, and best I can figure is a lithium service battery will provide significantly more runtime for accessories than the included second battery which it seems is primarily a backup to main starting battery. Therefore, I think a dual purpose lithium battery, which is also designed/capable of starting the vehicle, will be a better option than the included second battery or a lithium battery which is not able to start the vehicle. My plan is to have a professional install this type of battery and run all my accessories, including a refrigerator/freezer, and some of the power outlets on the roof off the service battery isolating the starting battery to simply start the vehicle.

 

[Miki]

First I am no expert on the subject, however, I have been following this thread and have watched numerous videos on the subject, mostly posted by Australians, and best I can figure is a lithium service battery will provide significantly more runtime for accessories than the included second battery which it seems is primarily a backup to main starting battery. Therefore, I think a dual purpose lithium battery, which is also designed/capable of starting the vehicle, will be a better option than the included second battery or a lithium battery which is not able to start the vehicle. My plan is to have a professional install this type of battery and run all my accessories, including a refrigerator/freezer, and some of the power outlets on the roof off the service battery isolating the starting battery to simply start the vehicle.

Good answer

The main difference between a Lithium and a LeadAcid is that the Lithium can accept a larger current (so charges faster) and can delivers more current (discharges) for longer.
This ability to last longer is called the DoD (Depth of Discharge).
LA batteries are happy with a C/10 delivery rate, so a 110Ah battery will discharge happily at 11A and will also be happy to charge at 10 to 11 Amps.
Any more and they can be damaged.
Lithium batteries are typically C/2 so you can suck 50% of its rated current out and charge at 50% too, some Lithoium batteries can accept a C/1 charge/discharge rate, but not for long.
LA batteries don't like the cold either

Back to DoD. LA batteries are in the 25 to 40% range.
If you discharge to 25% and then recharge, it will last considerably longer than if you discharge to 50% before recharging (more than twice as long).
Lithium doesn't suffer from this effect and typically has a DoD of 80%, above this and the curve of death gets a bit steeper.

In short a typical lithium battery can have 5000+ cycles at up to 80% DoD. That’s 4x the cycles at over 3x the DoD. That’s a much longer lived battery.

However ... (there's always one of these).

To charge a lithium battery you have to be a lot more careful than with a LeadAcid.
Because they have a lower internal resistance the Lithium battery can 'demand' a lot of power which can damage the alternator and potentially let the smoke out of the wiring/charging circuit if the current exceeds its nominal rating.
To overcome this you need to have a current limiting DC/DC convertor between the alternator and the Lithium battery and a charging circuit that can cope with the expected current.
The recommendation is 50% of the alternators capacity, so a 100A alternator would need to be limited/shunted to 50A and the charging circuit wiring would need to be able to handle that current with a safety margin...
The other issue is that you need to control the input (float/charge) voltage to be below 14V, again a specificaly designed Lithium battery DC/DC charger is needed.

 

[das mo]

Installed battery monitor to both batteries to collect some insight.

Initial numbers are:

- Ineos load status 78%
- Main battery monitor 70%
- Secondary battery monitor 30%

Lets see if it starts to make sense at some point.

 

[Pat-Ard]

@das mo which one did you install?

 

[Lollo050968]

@das mo which one did you install?

I bought this, and will install at the WE

Amazon

 

[bigleonski]

Installed battery monitor to both batteries to collect some insight.

Initial numbers are:

- Ineos load status 78%
- Main battery monitor 70%
- Secondary battery monitor 30%

Lets see if it starts to make sense at some point.

How does this make any sense?