On the Grenadier Fence in Brisbane

[Max]

It's funny.. because the grenadier has always been an original Defender replacement. Yet - as you're aware the original defender was one of the cheapest vehicles on the market.

My car was 1/3 cheaper than a Troopy when I bought it. Now supply issues for the troopy aside, you could pretty much buy two troopies for one grenadier.

Perhaps the grenadier is a g-wagon replacement because it sure isn't a defender replacement.

Which is totally ok of course.

You are saying replacement but the word should be evolution...or revolution...the only auto group that could have replaced the Defender was the original maker, now JLR had their attempt and failed...not as a car but by name and culture...the Grenadier is a stand alone vehicle created for those of us, thanks Jim, who believe it is where the old LR company may have retained its soul...this is far more serious than just a motor car...happy motoring

 

[DesertGecko]

Yep, that's exactly what I'm saying. It only looks like an original Defender with the same general layout, but beyond that there are very few similarities. Only time will tell if the durability of its components matches the G-Professional. And just as a reminder, the G-Professional became the original Defender replacement for our army in about 2011 when Land Rover could no longer commit to the OD keeping up with safety requirements, opting to systematically abandon those types of commercial markets altogether until the OD ceased production.

It would have been really interesting to see what price-point Land Rover might have placed a Grenadier type of update to the Defender had they tried. I guarantee it would have been a lot more than the AU$50-60K-odd many of the last OD buyers paid (not counting the rush of bizarre V8-leather bound limited editions they shovelled out in the last year of production).

Yes interesting this. I think we can all say now that it's a mercedes G-Wagon competitor.. but in fairness I don't think that was the original pitch at all.

It was very much a utilitarian vehicle.

Mr Ratcliffe said the Grenadier had to be both capable and reliable.
“The Grenadier project started by identifying a gap in the market, abandoned by a number of manufacturers, for a utilitarian off-road vehicle,” he said.

“This gave us our engineering blueprint for a capable, durable and reliable 4x4 built to handle the world’s harshest environments.”

And all the early 2020 reports were of a 70-80k starting price. And I think 80 was in fact the initial base price if I remember. The thing is even 80-90 is a very very different proposition to 130 and up which is where we are now. There is competition. And can a 130k car actually be a utility vehicle (I don't think so).

https://practicalmotoring.com.au/car-news/ineos-grenadier-revealed-and-confirmed-for-australia/
https://unsealed4x4.com.au/all-new-ineos-grenadier-4x4-wagon-and-ute-here-soon-from-around-80k/

So now we've had this revelation that the grenadier is actually not a original defender replacement but a competitor for an existing niche premium vehicle that's still in production.. IMHO the question remains - who is going to buy these cars once the initial rush dies down.

Because I'm pretty sure that of the group of people that bought the original defender very few (but clearly some did!) of them cross shopped the G-Wagon as a competitor. I remain convinced that they are going to struggle to sell them at the new price. Far far to expensive for the utility market, but too basic for the premium 4x4 market. Possibly people shopping for a new Discovery or Defender or whatever they've called it. We don't have visibility of what Ineos have plans for in terms of volume but maybe they are totally happy with tiny volumes. I reckon it's going to be a challenge to develop a meaningful remote support network with these volumes.

It also means that the original Defender market is still up for grabs. I agree with ASPW. a larger 5 door Suzuki Jimny would be awesome. Shame Suzuki don't do large cars. Time will tell. Lucky what I've got now still works as well or better than ever. It is what it is.

 

[AnD3rew]

It's funny.. because the grenadier has always been an original Defender replacement. Yet - as you're aware the original defender was one of the cheapest vehicles on the market.

My car was 1/3 cheaper than a Troopy when I bought it. Now supply issues for the troopy aside, you could pretty much buy two troopies for one grenadier.

Perhaps the grenadier is a g-wagon replacement because it sure isn't a defender replacement.

Which is totally ok of course.

The original, original Defender may have been, but by the end of the “original” Defender they were far from cheap

 

[DaveB]

Yes interesting this. I think we can all say now that it's a mercedes G-Wagon competitor.. but in fairness I don't think that was the original pitch at all.

It was very much a utilitarian vehicle.



And all the early 2020 reports were of a 70-80k starting price. And I think 80 was in fact the initial base price if I remember. The thing is even 80-90 is a very very different proposition to 130 and up which is where we are now. There is competition. And can a 130k car actually be a utility vehicle (I don't think so).

https://practicalmotoring.com.au/car-news/ineos-grenadier-revealed-and-confirmed-for-australia/
https://unsealed4x4.com.au/all-new-ineos-grenadier-4x4-wagon-and-ute-here-soon-from-around-80k/

So now we've had this revelation that the grenadier is actually not a original defender replacement but a competitor for an existing niche premium vehicle that's still in production.. IMHO the question remains - who is going to buy these cars once the initial rush dies down.

Because I'm pretty sure that of the group of people that bought the original defender very few (but clearly some did!) of them cross shopped the G-Wagon as a competitor. I remain convinced that they are going to struggle to sell them at the new price. Far far to expensive for the utility market, but too basic for the premium 4x4 market. Possibly people shopping for a new Discovery or Defender or whatever they've called it. We don't have visibility of what Ineos have plans for in terms of volume but maybe they are totally happy with tiny volumes. I reckon it's going to be a challenge to develop a meaningful remote support network with these volumes.

It also means that the original Defender market is still up for grabs. I agree with ASPW. a larger 5 door Suzuki Jimny would be awesome. Shame Suzuki don't do large cars. Time will tell. Lucky what I've got now still works as well or better than ever. It is what it is.

We do have visibility of their target volumes.
Two shifts can make 30,000 a year and 3 shifts can make 45,000
That is for the entire world and for all models combined.
Tiny numbers.
The AUD$80-90K price didn't include onroad costs or GST
Here we are 3 pretty expensive years later and the base price is AUD$100K + on road costs + GST
So in all reality they haven't gone up that much.
To make them cheaper they could have used a chinese or indian motor/gearbox, basic seats, OEM brakes axles and tyres.
An electronic 4wd system and two wheel drive base.
Not sure if many of us would have purchased one though.

 

[AnD3rew]

Yes interesting this. I think we can all say now that it's a mercedes G-Wagon competitor.. but in fairness I don't think that was the original pitch at all.

If the G Wagen Professional was still available then I might agree that they were competitors, but I don’t think they really compete much if at all with the current G Wagen offerings at least here in Australia. Will be way fewer Gangsters and Toorak yummy mummies driving Grenadiers. My guess is that a Venn diagram would show the Grenadier occupying quite a bit of clear space of its own with a little crossover with G-Wagen, Jeep Wranglers, New Defenders, Land Cruisers and then a very very small crossover with a grab bag of mid size SUVs and Dual cab utes/pickups

 

[James]

If the G Wagen Professional was still available then I might agree that they were competitors, but I don’t think they really compete much if at all with the current G Wagen offerings at least here in Australia. Will be way fewer Gangsters and Toorak yummy mummies driving Grenadiers. My guess is that a Venn diagram would show the Grenadier occupying quite a bit of clear space of its own with a little crossover with G-Wagen, Jeep Wranglers, New Defenders, Land Cruisers and then a very very small crossover with a grab bag of mid size SUVs and Dual cab utes/pickups

Agree completely.
I was a little saddened when they said they’d do a more luxury grenadier soon. ‘Spose it’s inevitable (and financially attractive) but I’ve been kind of hoping that this car doesnt end up appealing to the gangster/pimp/WAGs and mosman/toorak set. Its only the last few years that the real defender became ‘chic’, and until then it was a great marker of people worth chatting to. Ho hum, c’est la vie.

 

[grenadierboy]

Agree completely.
I was a little saddened when they said they’d do a more luxury grenadier soon. ‘Spose it’s inevitable (and financially attractive) but I’ve been kind of hoping that this car doesnt end up appealing to the gangster/pimp/WAGs and mosman/toorak set. Its only the last few years that the real defender became ‘chic’, and until then it was a great marker of people worth chatting to. Ho hum, c’est la vie.

yes & no. I'm a bit more sanguine about how & where the Grenadier is used.

You wanna pay $130k to pick the kids up from pre-school and drop into the free-range butcher & organic grocer on the way home in a car with a ladder frame, center diff locking & winch, that never ever gets used - that's a bit odd but fine by me.

Who am I to decide who, where & when a particular mode of transport is appropriate.

 

[DaveB]

Just out of interest the Landcruiser 70 series station wagon, not ute, would be the correct comparison for the Grenadier.
Only 1,185 of those were sold in 2019.
That was pre COVID issues so a pretty good year to choose.
Grenadier is well and truly outselling it.

 

[Sam]

Can a 130K car be a utility vehicle? I think so @DesertGecko .

Jim said: utilitarian off-road vehicle; capable; durable; reliable

Jim didn't say: cheap; primitive; arduous to use.

Farmers will want these things as much as (The Dreaded ) People Who Go To Farmers Markets will want these things...

 

[DCPU]

We do have visibility of their target volumes.
Two shifts can make 30,000 a year and 3 shifts can make 45,000
That is for the entire world and for all models combined.
Tiny numbers.

"On the sidelines of a visit to the Hambach factory where Lynn Calder and Philippe Steyer confirmed that Ineos intends to produce 15,000 Grenadier in 2023, then 30,000 in 2024"

"Before adding that with the transition to two teams, the Hambach factory will significantly increase in power in 2024 to produce 30,000 Grenadier. Enough to serve the 31 countries where Ineos Automotive is established , pending the arrival in the United States at the end of 2023"

Distribution of the Ineos Grenadier in France: a growing network of agents

Some interesting snippets: "On the sidelines of a visit to the Hambach factory where Lynn Calder and Philippe Steyer confirmed that Ineos intends to produce 15,000 Grenadier in 2023, then 30,000 in 2024" "Before adding that with the transition to two teams, the Hambach factory will...

www.theineosforum.com

 

[Tazzieman]

Yes interesting this. I think we can all say now that it's a mercedes G-Wagon competitor.. but in fairness I don't think that was the original pitch at all.

Somewhere out there is an old interview with Sir Jim who said it was a 1/2 (or maybe 1/3) price G wagen

 

[DCPU]

Yes, I was thinking about that quote ~ wasn't it something like 80% G wagen for 50% of the price?

And in terms of the influences:

 

[Tazzieman]

A G wagen in Australia is seriously drug money. Definitely a car for suburban nouveau unexplainably riche.

 

[Solmanic]

It needs to be noted that G-Wagens are actually three quite separate models and to say the Grenadier is like a G-Wagen, or a competitor to the G-Wagen is misleading without specifying exactly which series G-Wagen you’re referring to.

The W461 is the original G platform that continued on to become the G-Professional. Like I said earlier these were/are A$120K odd and yes, many rural fire services, forestry organizations, armies etc obviously didn’t think that was too high a price for totally utilitarian commercial 4x4s. No frills at all but 3x locking diffs and even tow bar as standard. This series more or less matches the Grenadier on price.

The W463 was the civilian variant that still had solid axles with 3x locking diffs but gradually got dragged further and further up market as Mercedes jammed more of their S-class gubbins in. By the end of production the “sensible” diesel G300-d was about A$180k. The ridiculous V8 G55 or G63 went into the high A$200K plus range. In many ways the Grenadier specifications look most similar to the G300-d but with both petrol & diesel options and less leather.

The latest W464 G-Wagens are all new with IFS and other than their shape and I think the rear door handle have nothing at all in common with either the W461 or W463. And at prices north of A$280K for even the base G400-d and up over A$400K for the G63, they are in no way a comparable vehicle to the Grenadier in either format or purpose.

 

[DesertGecko]

It needs to be noted that G-Wagens are actually three quite separate models and to say the Grenadier is like a G-Wagen, or a competitor to the G-Wagen is misleading without specifying exactly which series G-Wagen you’re referring to.

The W461 is the original G platform that continued on to become the G-Professional. Like I said earlier these were/are A$120K odd and yes, many rural fire services, forestry organizations, armies etc obviously didn’t think that was too high a price for totally utilitarian commercial 4x4s. No frills at all but 3x locking diffs and even tow bar as standard. This series more or less matches the Grenadier on price.

The W463 was the civilian variant that still had solid axles with 3x locking diffs but gradually got dragged further and further up market as Mercedes jammed more of their S-class gubbins in. By the end of production the “sensible” diesel G300-d was about A$180k. The ridiculous V8 G55 or G63 went into the high A$200K plus range. In many ways the Grenadier specifications look most similar to the G300-d but with both petrol & diesel options and less leather.

The latest W464 G-Wagens are all new with IFS and other than their shape and I think the rear door handle have nothing at all in common with either the W461 or W463. And at prices north of A$280K for even the base G400-d and up over A$400K for the G63, they are in no way a comparable vehicle to the Grenadier in either format or purpose.

I imagine they would still do them for fleets like Army etc but not making them available for retail customers?

 

[DesertGecko]

Can a 130K car be a utility vehicle? I think so @DesertGecko .

Jim said: utilitarian off-road vehicle; capable; durable; reliable

Jim didn't say: cheap; primitive; arduous to use.

Farmers will want these things as much as (The Dreaded ) People Who Go To Farmers Markets will want these things...

Will farmers be able to afford them though?

I can see station owners in Australia looking for that type of car. They could have a VX Landcruiser 300 or a sahara for the same money. Time will tell.

 

[DaveB]

I imagine they would still do them for fleets like Army etc but not making them available for retail customers?

Mercedes dealers/agents in Australia don't make any base spec models available.
Even if they do bring in the base model they add lots of packages and options to them.
JLR tends to do the same.

 

[Bobby Mac]

Transferred this bit of bling from the old Defender to the new Grenny….. seems more appropriate on the overhead console of the Grenny!

 

[DesertGecko]

I haven't touched this thread for a while but thought of it last night when I saw my first facebook ad for Grenadier discounting. 3.5k free accessories for new orders placed before May 31st. I have maintained that once they have delivered the orders they have in the pipeline that they are going to struggle to get new orders at the current price. It has the potential to be a good car but there are a lot of proven alternatives for less.

I did some quick recalculations.. a 70 series gxl wagon is low 80's on the road. The base model Grenadier is 110 on the road, and the Trialmaster is 123 OTR. But that's not a single option and it's still 40k more than the 70 GXL wagon. Would be easy to get to 140k even being quite careful.

I remain convinced that they are going to face some tough decisions in the near future. IMHO they are 20k too high to even achieve "niche" sales let alone any volume. I've no idea how they are going to establish a meaningful dealer network in the bush with just a trickle of cars coming in.

I've chosen to sit on the fence for the foreseeable future as I have a good car and there is no incentive now to rush in. Thinking again I know that if I did need a new car I'd go for the Toyota without question. Yeah there are a few things I really don't like on it (leaf springs), but there are things that I do like - like 300kg lighter, and proven parts and service backup in the remote areas.

The grenadier has missed the defender market.. they seem to be trying to compete with the Discovery 6 rather than being a replacement for the original Defender - which was a cheap utility car.

 

[Nocrays]

Yep it’s definitely going to be interesting at the current price point in Australia. To add to that there are things about the RHD version that will further turn off buyers in a relatively small market. I think the LHD markets will fair much better.

But still there are some of us who are not keen on the current vehicles on offer and see this as what the new defender should have been. At the initial may22 price I can still justify it but the current pricing has it $30k more for the spec I have.

I still see it as what I’ve been chasing as a replacement for my 110.