Nolden Headlights

[DaveB]

I think there is an echo from the other tyre thread here, aren't we referring to lights this thread?

I was multi-tasking

 

[Stu_Barnes]

I was multi-tasking

more like flogging a dead horse.

But back to the headlights, they are very similar to the aftermarket ones everyone seems to be fitting to their Jeeps (wranglers) here in the States.

 

[Krabby]

In that same breath, I think just about every newish car here (US) has LED headlights of some sort so this should affect every brand.

 

[Spjnr]

more like flogging a dead horse.

But back to the headlights, they are very similar to the aftermarket ones everyone seems to be fitting to their Jeeps (wranglers) here in the States.

As i mentioned before, Had trucklites on my JK for years without any issues at all, even in very cold weather!

 

[Stu_Barnes]

As i mentioned before, Had trucklites on my JK for years without any issues at all, even in very cold weather!

I'm not familiar with the brand, were they LED?

I know that the first generation LED headlights of the JL, the latest Wrangler has some issues in sleet and snow where due to the recess of the fittings, a buildup would occur as the heat generated wasn't enough to keep things clear.

 

[Spjnr]

I'm not familiar with the brand, were they LED?

I know that the first generation LED headlights of the JL, the latest Wrangler has some issues in sleet and snow where due to the recess of the fittings, a buildup would occur as the heat generated wasn't enough to keep things clear.

Trucklite LLC mainly specialised in Commercial vehicle lighting, for HGVs etc. They made a very good 7" round LED headlight that was 50% cheaper than the JW Speaker but 90% as effective.

They bought Rigid Industries lighting so their quality is top notch.

 

[stickshifter]

From a photo of the Scottish trip for journalists, it looks like the headlights don't appear to suffer with the LED issue of snow build up that required some manufacturers to bring out heated lenses.
View attachment 7800610

Great photo - and that's a nice thought - but these are not the conditions that would lead to LED headlights getting caked with snow. I drove in light snow like this in my LED-equipped Jeep all the time with no snow build-up.

LED headlights get caked with snow or ice when: (1) it is snowing hard, and the snow is wet, (2) the snow is dry and fluffy, but it is really dumping, (3) it is sleeting a rainy snowy mixture but the air temps are cold, and (4) when you are driving on the highway and there is a lot of freezing slush being kicked up by other cars - and its too crowded to give the car in front of you proper distance, because people from the next lane keep cutting in front of you into the gap you are leaving (in your effort to be a good driver).

Lots of complaints from the tiny Rivian community already:

The design of the Jeep headlight and its housing also make them prone to snow build-up:

I'll need to see the Grenadier go through some tougher conditions before I'm ready to agree with you!

EDIT: Okay, okay, in some of the other footage I've seen since I wrote this post I see that it was snowing pretty hard for a while there

 

[stickshifter]

Now this is more of a snow storm (but there doesn't look like there was much accumulation). We're going to get a foot here tonight, which is just... Tuesday

 

[DaveB]

Great photo - and that's a nice thought - but these are not the conditions that would lead to LED headlights getting caked with snow. I drove in light snow like this in my LED-equipped Jeep all the time with no snow build-up.

LED headlights get caked with snow or ice when: (1) it is snowing hard, and the snow is wet, (2) the snow is dry and fluffy, but it is really dumping, (3) it is sleeting a rainy snowy mixture but the air temps are cold, and (4) when you are driving on the highway and there is a lot of freezing slush being kicked up by other cars - and its too crowded to give the car in front of you proper distance, because people from the next lane keep cutting in front of you into the gap you are leaving (in your effort to be a good driver).

Lots of complaints from the tiny Rivian community already:
View attachment 7800634

The design of the Jeep headlight and its housing also make them prone to snow build-up:
View attachment 7800635

I'll need to see the Grenadier go through some tougher conditions before I'm ready to agree with you!

Yeah, I have that problem all the time here

 

[stickshifter]

Yeah, I have that problem all the time here

We're talking about snow Dave, not sand

 

[DCPU]

Great photo - and that's a nice thought - but these are not the conditions that would lead to LED headlights getting caked with snow. I drove in light snow like this in my LED-equipped Jeep all the time with no snow build-up.

EDIT: Okay, okay, in some of the other footage I've seen since I wrote this post I see that it was snowing pretty hard for a while there

I was only looking at the relative condition of the headlights versus that of the driving lamps. Yes, there are many assumptions on actual weather conditions, whether someone had physically cleared the headlights immediately prior to the photo, etc; but as a starter for ten, it's promising.

For comparison, it looks like the RAI is quite a snow trap...

 

[emax]

From a photo of the Scottish trip for journalists, it looks like the headlights don't appear to suffer with the LED issue of snow build up that required some manufacturers to bring out heated lenses.
View attachment 7800610

As stickshifter said, the snow is negligible. Let's see if it works on the highway when it snows and the cars in front of us kick up slush.

 

[DCPU]

As stickshifter said, the snow is negligible.

Not anymore...

EDIT: Okay, okay, in some of the other footage I've seen since I wrote this post I see that it was snowing pretty hard for a while there

 

[Logsplitter]

Does anyone know if the LED headlights on the Grenadier will need beam deflectors when taking a right hand drive vehicle to the EU for example or EU Grenadier to the UK. I’ve done a Google search and it seems some LED lights require them and some don’t
any ideas

 

[emax]

Not anymore...

I just wanted to point out that I had seen his comment. I just didn't see the second one.

However, I allow myself to have my own view and so, in case this is important to you, here is my revised statement:

I'll see how it works on the highway when it snows and the cars ahead kick up slush.

 

[stickshifter]

I think for now its safe to say that the answer is "to be determined"

 

[AWo]

No. I asked them and they do not intend to give the car heaters. Bad decision for driving in Europe, for example Austria or Germany.

Btw. the Nolden 7" you show above are 2nd Generation lights, the Grenadier are 3rd Generation lights.

There are some very simple reasons why you won't find heater elements in LED lights right from car manufacturers:

1. Emission
If you check some of the very rare LED lights on the aftermarket (aftermarket, not car vendor!) you see that the Daytime Running Light has a quite high power consumption. That is due to the fact that this heats the front glass. And even if the heating is turned on with the low beam, it still consukes additional power. For car manufacturers, especially volume manufacturers, that would mean an increase in CO2 average emissions which are restricted by law. That is why you primarily find heated LED in the aftermarket, not at new cars.

2. Homologation
A car light is homologated up to the front glass. Having heater lines in the front glass means a performance reduction and problems to match the homologation requirements,which vary from country to country (or UN-ECE vs. SAE if we speak about two big markets, there are even more). That is easier and costs less without these heater lines.

3. Passive cooling
A robust and reliable LED light uses passive cooling. That can't break and does not consume additional power. Cooling is the most important factor when it comes to lifetime. Some thought about and tried active cooling where a fan blows warm air behind the front glass (a variant of this are the new Osram Nightbreaker LED bulbs, which have a cooling fan attached at the end of the LED bulb. If this fan is blocked (water, mud, dirt, etc.) the LEDs are powered off to prevent damage). BTW, the Nightbreaker do not have a UN-ECE "E" mark which makes them legal in Europe, they have a national clearence (thereby not legal in France, for example). Car manufacturers required from the LED manufacturer to keep that active cooling repairable. That would have meant to be able to open the light to repair it. Doing this would have meant that you never get the light back as operational save and it would brake the homolgation of the light as its beam would never be as precise and correct as before and it would never become sealed as before again. This is why LED light manufactures stepped back from that approach, as they don't want to have the integrity of their light wrecked.

4. Is the problem itself is a real problem?
Snow covering lights is a problem if you're driving at temperatures slightly above zero degree Celsius down to around -10 degree. In deeper temperatures the snow is as dry that is does not tend to stick. Otherwise E-cars would have serious problems in Scandinavia. One thing which plays a role here is the mounting situation. Like the Defender, the G-Class, Toyotas and the Grenadier the mounting situation is not optimal and could cause problems even with dry snow. That is because it is mounted in a funnel shaped frame, where the snow can not escape. It can slightly melt and become sticky again.

However, this mentioned temperature range is a problem. I had the opportunity with my Nolden 7" to test it a few weeks ago near Cologne. Cologne is in an area where the temperature is about two degrees higher in winter than in surrounding areas and 2 degree lower in summer (very bad region for rheumatism called: Cologne-Bonn-Valley). After driving 45 km under snowing conditions I found that the LED lenses of the Nolden were able to keep up with the snow and they kept by their own emitted heat the glass in front of the lens free.

View: https://youtube.com/shorts/QjRWXqrNg3k?feature=share


If that would be a very huge/common problem, you would see more cars with heated LED lights. But you don't.

Cheers
AWo

 

[jeremy_matrix]

Having had the first set of "Nolden" bi-LED's (which, after some sleuthing, I actually found/purchased from Nolden's large lighting manufacturer in the FarEast--SHOCK/HORROR for you diehard Euro fans ) in the USA on my gray G, they were good and SO much better than the anemic OEM halogens, but the beam pattern could have been better. It's been ~10yrs now but from my recollection, there were some gaps in the beam pattern, meaning it wasn't uniform.

That being said, when augmented with Rigid 50" E1 combo LED bar, I could easily see at night;

Did I experience issues with frosting during snow/ice; yes, for sure (I have the same issue on my Morimoto XB's on my big truck). I need to do more research but some have talked about trying a plexiglass polish that might help the frost not stick to the lenses as well. Haven't tried that yet.

Yes, the manufacturer has SAE or ECE lighting, and specific LHD or RHD beam patterns, as well as "city/marker lights" or not. Mine were SAE, LHD, city light equipped. However, while my G was an '03 with simpler electronics, we tried installing a slightly different pair of these on a client's '06 which had an LED strip vs my city light bulb. His '06 G freaked out due to the LED strip and displayed error messages in the cluster. We couldn't easily solve this so the client was going to look for an alternative.

USA Jeeps use JW Speaker and Trucklite. Looks like TRS has a bunch of new options now for 7" round (I assume that's the diameter of the IG's?) from Morimoto, VisionX, KC, Rigid, Oracle; https://www.theretrofitsource.com/assemblies/headlight-assemblies-universal
I had a look at Nolden's mfr's website and I do not see any lamps that look like gen3 IG, so IG probably went to another larger supplier (Hella, Osram, Philips, etc) and had lamps made.

 

[AWo]

There will be no 7" 3rd generation. The 7" market shrinks, as no new cars enter the market that use the standard module lights. The Grenadier is one example, no 7" but 8.somewhat". Are you using 1st generation Nolden 7" with position light? All G-Wagons from mid 2002 are prone to failures with LED lights. Could or could not be and any kind of failure. This is du to Mercedes using many, many different electronics in their ECU. Nolden tried a few years to mitigate the problems. But compared to the number of sales to G-Wagons having problems and the time and money they had to spend to fix it, they stopped supporting this (what was communicated to the customers). There are companys in Europe (in Austria for example) who claim to get all these problems fixed. So if some G-Wagon owner is looking for that, I can help.

Cheers
AWo

 

[jeremy_matrix]

There will be no 7" 3rd generation. The 7" market shrinks, as no new cars enter the market that use the standard module lights. The Grenadier is one example, no 7" but 8.somewhat". Are you using 1st generation Nolden 7" with position light? All G-Wagons from mid 2002 are prone to failures with LED lights. Could or could not be and any kind of failure. This is du to Mercedes using many, many different electronics in their ECU. Nolden tried a few years to mitigate the problems. But compared to the number of sales to G-Wagons having problems and the time and money they had to spend to fix it, they stopped supporting this (what was communicated to the customers). There are companys in Europe (in Austria for example) who claim to get all these problems fixed. So if some G-Wagon owner is looking for that, I can help.

Cheers
AWo

Ok, so IG's are 8.?" diameter, thanks for that info. (Do you know the diameter of the 2 inner lights on the Grenadier, and are they LED and high beams, or auxiliary/secondary lights in addition to high/low of the 8.?" main lights. I've been meaning to dig for this info so apologies if I missed it somewhere on this forum)

My 2003 G500 had what I assume to be 1st gen(maybe 2nd gen?) "Nolden" lamps w/ pos light. NO issues or warnings with these, so perhaps I got lucky with mid2002 electronics in my 2003MY? Here is what they looked like, except mine were the darker tint glass;

Appreciate the help with later G's and/or G's using "Nolden" lamps with the LED strip vs pos light.