New Defender vs Ineos Grenadier

[Wayneos]

No
It did leave some nice scratches on the leather seats and consol though

A lorikeet in a bad mood could tear the interior apart if it wanted to I suppose!

 

[Sam]

Just had my Grenadier a day and it's parked on the drive next to our six-month old Defender 110. I don't love the Grenadier yet but I'll give it time. No software issues but I can't find anywhere in the handbook how to leave the alarm off when it's locked. You really have to slam the driver's door, suspect it's a poor adjustment as rear door is not so stiff. It's a long way down too for my wife, she's going to need those steps

It is what it is - a heavy, solid, reasonably well appointed workhorse. I've no doubt it will run and run. Will I be taking it to Scotland tomorrow on my fishing trip? I don't think so. I want to get there in comfort and the Defender's ride is something else. Ah, you say but it's going to break down. Well it hasn't done so yet.

Sitting in the Grenadier is like going back in time. The indicator almost echoes and the wipers feel quite retro. The exterior is really solid but the interior is a bit disappointing and plasticky. That of the Defender is really well thought out with lots of storage slots and spaces, while the Grenadier has about as much front
compartment storage as my old Porsche Macan.

The steering isn't a problem, but I don't like it. The foot rest equally isn't an issue so far. But on a long run? Not so sure. No adjustable lumbar support but seats feel reasonably supportive. Rear load space is impressive, better than the Defender with seats up, a real shame the seats don't fold flat. As for that great big bag for the safari windows. What's that all about? Imagine you're on safari in Africa and you've bagged away the windows and a lion comes along, fancying some tinned human. Could be a problem.

For sure, the Grenadier looks the business and it's going to perform well off road. But so does the Defender and I've come to like its looks. It's brilliany designed, is more comfortable, has more poke, and is far more economical than the Grenadier. Not sure how long we'll run them side by side but my wife says she really likes what she calls "the beast". Yup the Grenadier certainly has a presence but I'm chary about the cult that's built up around this machine.

I like to read this sort of side-by-side comparison, from an owner of both, so thanks for posting. The frank luke-warmness toward the IG is intriguing.

Genuine question - why did you buy the IG? You sound very happy with the Defender and write as if the car was handed to you for critique, as opposed to chosen by you. Did you test-drive the IG prior to purchase? Do you plan to keep both?

Cheers, S

 

[Sam]

Luxury has many definitions - don't go all over the map. For my purpose - as a buyer of an SUV - it's a great interior matched with a great and capable underside/build. I'm not looking for either or, I'm looking for both. In my market - the US - we had the LC for years. It was $85k and had a fantastic interior - all the bells and whistles - but it was not luxury looking. For perspective, it was twice the cost of a 4Runner. If all you wanted was capable, you'd talk yourself out of LC quickly. But LC had a way better interior than the 4Runner, plus the parts/construction was somehow different and stronger (and the 4Runner is exceptionally well built.) Whatever toyota did, they did something extra with the US LC, and it cost 2x the 4Runner. But even at 2x a 4Runner, it was not a lux mobile. Folks that didn't know the vehicle thought it looked like the Highlander (exactly the point)! The LC had all the traction control, electronics, and 18'' rims - just what you need to do whatever on difficult terrain. You're off base with the RR comparison - that's you defining "luxury" as only flashy, which surely there is lots of that. A RR comp is the Mercedes GLS or Lexus LX. If you look at New Defender, it's closest comp - to me - is the discontinued LC. the LC was intentionally understated, but still exceptionally capable and livable as a daily driver SUV. don't forget livable. don't overlook that feature. livable as a daily drive SUV can quickly strike out Rubicon/Bronco. It's not the off road that makes Rubicon a stand out, so much as the fact that on the highway, wouldn't you rather be in a LC? Of course, which is why it was $85k... And it's why folks that wanted LC now look at New Defender.

By pretending new defender is a RR, you totally overlook the market the LC sold to. You can't go Rubicon vs. RR. That old LC market has folks that don't mind an $85k SUV, so long as it has everything: functional durability, pleasant and comfortable interior, and no rough edges while driving. That's one definition of luxury. The LC was not a "theatrical" SUV. It allowed the SUV to do what the rubicon driver does on the drive to the ski slope, but the LC will have a great highway drive home, whereas that Rubicon is going to be loud and wobbly if it's loaded up and doing 80 mph. Luxury of not having that cramped and loud driving experience, and not worrying about being stuck anywhere, as the LC was capable and prepared. so yea, if the Grenadier has an interior like a LC would I think that's a good idea? absolutely. But the LC was never, ever, remotely a G wagon. Don't go wild with a definition of luxury, "chrome" and all, because then you end up at the end of the line: the G wagon. "luxury" for the new defender driver is not having to negotiate space in the front with another passenger - there's plenty of room for multiple phones, coffees, water bottles, etc. Rubicon gets tricky when folks have stuff - it's cramped. Not having to deal with that is the luxury of LC and new defender. For the Grenadier, "luxury" could be offering heated back row seats, a heated steering wheel, and plenty of room for passenger stuff in doors, glove box, dashboard, etc. That's not chrome - it's basic space in the vehicle for all the things most folks walk around with. When I was in a Rubicon I noticed something hitting my leg- it was the strap that attached the front door. The top was vynal - forget conversations on the highway. The sales guy showed me how to fold the roof and pack it in the trunk. Oh, you mean right there, where a suitcase would be if I were traveling?? The trunk was small due to the roll bars. I get all the off road ability of Rubicon - it's awesome - but as a daily use family SUV, it's not even close to what new defender has, absolutely nowhere near a LC. I would love it if Grenadier had something that was LC like, but we'll have to see how it develops... also, bty, I don't think many cars are the same underneath as LC. say what you want, they ran smooth, handled well, and didn't break. so, no, it's absolutely not "all the same car underneath." there are differences in build quality, parts use, and a better build quality is a luxury. it's not visible until you break down, but it's a luxury to have a well build SUV like the LC was.

Answer the question - have you sat in a Grenadier?

It sounds like this car will need to be everything everywhere all at once. Nothing is ever enough for the US market.

 

[grenadierboy]

Answer the question - have you sat in a Grenadier?

It sounds like this car will need to be everything everywhere all at once. Nothing is ever enough in the US market.

I think the context to the many many comments from our US friends regards the IG product & pricing: they have access to a huge product selection at much cheaper prices compared to European buyers (and of Australians) were we pay through the nose for just about everything.

 

[Sam]

Yes they have a wider selection, but the discussion is Grenadier vs Defender, not Grenadier vs Everything... a hopeless discussion involving an array of diverging private interests, within differing markets and cultures.

Also not the original aim of Ineos... which was - specifically, openly - to design a more worthy successor to the original Land Rover Defender, than Land Rover's own offering.

Also the US prices are pretty much what we're paying.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

I think it’s a fair competition. The vehicles do the same kind of thing at the same kind of price point (in the USA). They are just coming from a totally different design ethos.

No question the ND is a tough and rugged rig — look at the ones that they thrashed while making the new bond film; there’s a behind the scenes video of NDs going very high in the sky, slamming down at odd angles, and unlike the Dukes of Hazzard rig, the New Defender drove away.

Further to what I said in another thread, there’s a few videos now of the New Defender getting into horrific crashes and the occupants walk away.

I don’t think there are significantly any places a Gren will get you off road that the ND won’t get you too also. A great example of this principle in real life is the 4WD24/7 folks from Australia. They have a lifted twin locked 80 series on 35” tires, Sooty they call it, which is an absolute weapon off road. And Graham Cahill’s basic little Isuzu DMax on 32s goes to the same places and the same trails — admittedly, he has to winch sometimes when Sooty doesn’t, but thats rare enough and only in the most difficult terrain. He still arrives at the campfire though to risk life and limb with Shauno’s cooking.

But that philosophy of design is a big differentiator. The things that can go wrong on the ND and the things that can go wrong on the IG are wildly different it seems, and with the ND some dealer intervention appears to be necessary for some problems. I’m not sure how much of this is reality vs internet gossip — let’s face it, a laptop (or a smartphone with an OBD dongle) has been as essential as a socket wrench for most cars made I’m the last 10+ years — but the thing I’m not sure about is even if I have that, am I still reliant on a dealership with the ND? Or can I get the software necessary to do the electronic troubleshooting myself?

That would be the biggest impact of the design philosophy imo, but if I can get the tools to do it myself it becomes less of an issue. On the other hand I already have the tools necessary to work on the Gren, and it appears as though any shade tree mechanic can have a crack at fixing stuff successfully.

My motorbike had an idle issue and it ended up being the fuel sensor; I had to loosen the sensor and rotate it gently while actively monitoring the voltage output on the computer to get it within 0.02 volts of the spec. It was easy enough to do, but good luck getting the typical developing world corner bike shop that is used to dealing with carb jets and throttle cables on sub-$500 Chinese Honda copies to be able to help you figure that out if you need it.

 

[curb-optional]

Answer the question - have you sat in a Grenadier?

It sounds like this car will need to be everything everywhere all at once. Nothing is ever enough for the US market.

Hi Sam, no Grenadier doesn't need to be everything all at once! And it certainly need not be all things to people, as no car is! I totally get "early adopters" drive different configurations than model changes that come later. Sites like this are great, and there's lots of very different motivations that bring us here: some talk about the car like artwork, others are going to use the Grenadier like farm equipment; some need the vehicle to meet certain threshold criteria, while other don't. There will be those that already work on their old defenders, and figure, this will be a great new challenge, but others who say "where's the local Grenadier shop for repairs?" We're all different. For me, if you've gathered, I think the discontinued LC hit many of the features and boxes I'd want to check as I look for a new family purpose SUV. The new Defender also hits many of those same boxes, and it's available today for purchase (unlike the LC in the US). Although I'd not disagree there are differences, whatever the difference is between an off road Wrangler vs. a LC or new Defender, I'd never put the LC or new Defender in an off-road spot where I'd need to draw on that likely additional Wrangler capability. If I do not end up with a Grenadier, I will likely still be discussing it with my neighbor (also a car fan) for hours. The Grenadier looks fantastic. We'd talk about it, but I know he'd never buy one. For me, all the initial press a few years back about it being a defender like SUV was eye catching; it made me learn more. I haven't sat in one yet, as the roadshow hasn't made it to my area. When it does, then I can judge for myself. Lots that test Grenadier will have Wranglers and Broncos on their comparison lists - totally cool. Personally, I don't; I have new Defender, Lexus GX, and I've added Grenadier. The 4Runner is getting an upgrade soon, so maybe that gets added to my list? Last 4Runner I sat in, it was just for me. I always liked the look of the LR4s, with their high cabins for passengers.

 

[lightning]

One thing about the Grenadier (and l speak as a ND owner) is that it's more "off road fit"

That is, you won't mind taking a Grenadier into the bush, or canyons.

Where as the Defender is just as capable, but a bit too precious. Imagine getting a scratch in the door of your Grenadier from some bushes, you'd shrug it off and keep going.
lf that happened in a Defender you'd be crying into your coffee, imagining the cost of rectifying it when you got home.

 

[Cheshire cat]

Hi Sam, no Grenadier doesn't need to be everything all at once! And it certainly need not be all things to people, as no car is! I totally get "early adopters" drive different configurations than model changes that come later. Sites like this are great, and there's lots of very different motivations that bring us here: some talk about the car like artwork, others are going to use the Grenadier like farm equipment; some need the vehicle to meet certain threshold criteria, while other don't. There will be those that already work on their old defenders, and figure, this will be a great new challenge, but others who say "where's the local Grenadier shop for repairs?" We're all different. For me, if you've gathered, I think the discontinued LC hit many of the features and boxes I'd want to check as I look for a new family purpose SUV. The new Defender also hits many of those same boxes, and it's available today for purchase (unlike the LC in the US). Although I'd not disagree there are differences, whatever the difference is between an off road Wrangler vs. a LC or new Defender, I'd never put the LC or new Defender in an off-road spot where I'd need to draw on that likely additional Wrangler capability. If I do not end up with a Grenadier, I will likely still be discussing it with my neighbor (also a car fan) for hours. The Grenadier looks fantastic. We'd talk about it, but I know he'd never buy one. For me, all the initial press a few years back about it being a defender like SUV was eye catching; it made me learn more. I haven't sat in one yet, as the roadshow hasn't made it to my area. When it does, then I can judge for myself. Lots that test Grenadier will have Wranglers and Broncos on their comparison lists - totally cool. Personally, I don't; I have new Defender, Lexus GX, and I've added Grenadier. The 4Runner is getting an upgrade soon, so maybe that gets added to my list? Last 4Runner I sat in, it was just for me. I always liked the look of the LR4s, with their high cabins for passengers.

Hi Mr Optional.
Thanks for your thoughts which are well laid out although I have to say, still a little confusing. Should you not just buy what you desire / Afford / Need?' Surely there is nothing more to it than that.
I can understand fully the concerns that buyers in the States will have when referring to spares / Support. Hopefully, less of a problem for those Europeans amongst us. Perhaps you would be better waiting to see how the Grenadier works out over there. You could put down the holding deposit so you get on the list and if in a few months when they want you to sign up, you still haven't got the answers you need, just cancel. Job done.
PS. I would say the new Defender could be most things to most people with the exception reliability and ubiquity. Hoping to avoid both of those things in my Grenadier.

 

[curb-optional]

I think it’s a fair competition. The vehicles do the same kind of thing at the same kind of price point (in the USA). They are just coming from a totally different design ethos.

No question the ND is a tough and rugged rig — look at the ones that they thrashed while making the new bond film; there’s a behind the scenes video of NDs going very high in the sky, slamming down at odd angles, and unlike the Dukes of Hazzard rig, the New Defender drove away.

Further to what I said in another thread, there’s a few videos now of the New Defender getting into horrific crashes and the occupants walk away.

I don’t think there are significantly any places a Gren will get you off road that the ND won’t get you too also. A great example of this principle in real life is the 4WD24/7 folks from Australia. They have a lifted twin locked 80 series on 35” tires, Sooty they call it, which is an absolute weapon off road. And Graham Cahill’s basic little Isuzu DMax on 32s goes to the same places and the same trails — admittedly, he has to winch sometimes when Sooty doesn’t, but thats rare enough and only in the most difficult terrain. He still arrives at the campfire though to risk life and limb with Shauno’s cooking.

But that philosophy of design is a big differentiator. The things that can go wrong on the ND and the things that can go wrong on the IG are wildly different it seems, and with the ND some dealer intervention appears to be necessary for some problems. I’m not sure how much of this is reality vs internet gossip — let’s face it, a laptop (or a smartphone with an OBD dongle) has been as essential as a socket wrench for most cars made I’m the last 10+ years — but the thing I’m not sure about is even if I have that, am I still reliant on a dealership with the ND? Or can I get the software necessary to do the electronic troubleshooting myself?

That would be the biggest impact of the design philosophy imo, but if I can get the tools to do it myself it becomes less of an issue. On the other hand I already have the tools necessary to work on the Gren, and it appears as though any shade tree mechanic can have a crack at fixing stuff successfully.

My motorbike had an idle issue and it ended up being the fuel sensor; I had to loosen the sensor and rotate it gently while actively monitoring the voltage output on the computer to get it within 0.02 volts of the spec. It was easy enough to do, but good luck getting the typical developing world corner bike shop that is used to dealing with carb jets and throttle cables on sub-$500 Chinese Honda copies to be able to help you figure that out if you need it.

The turbo on my 2.0L 4 cyl. LR2 cracked. The tailpipe was spewing white cloudy smoke, and I had a cabin smell of gas or oil. When I went to my local garage, who has a fancy BMW sign up there saying they fix foreign cars - he tried. He replaced a few parts, but wasn't able to identify the problem and the smoke/smells continued. The dealer, fully invested in just LRs, hooked some "smoke" test up to it, and learned the turbo cracked a bit. It was likely not visible, nor able to be found in an electronic reading. The dealer had that fancy smoke thing, and then used visual inspection (knowing how the turbo/engine was supposed to meld together), found the crack, replaced my turbo, and the problem is indeed gone. So, long story short, I would say that as a current owner of one of the most basic modern LRs out there, the mechanical set up is still not something you're going to be able to rely on you local garage for. I'm looking at ND, and I have a good rapport with my local dealer, but if someone said they don't want to have to go back to the dealer for service, or fixing their SUV themselves is part of the ownership experience they want, I'm not sure I'd suggest any LR. If you believe LRs to be "over engineered," then the folks most likely to know when something is amiss are going to be the folks that have spent the time to learn exactly how the LR was over engineered. Not knowing what LR does differently from other manufacturers (maybe like BMW), my local garage, nice as he was, had a few chances with my LR, but ultimately he could not be relied up for continuous LR care. To be fair, even if you work with your LR dealer, you have to advocate. You have to make sure they go over and through everything, or else you can end up "off the road" .

 

[Cheshire cat]

One thing about the Grenadier (and l speak as a ND owner) is that it's more "off road fit"

That is, you won't mind taking a Grenadier into the bush, or canyons.

Where as the Defender is just as capable, but a bit too precious. Imagine getting a scratch in the door of your Grenadier from some bushes, you'd shrug it off and keep going.
lf that happened in a Defender you'd be crying into your coffee, imagining the cost of rectifying it when you got home.

The owner of a 4x4 tour company in Yorkshire takes the Grenadier out for a test drive and posts his feedback on YouTube.
He does have one on order and is prepared to gamble his own money on the vehicle. He goes on to say how the Grenadier doesn't touch the new Defender for comfort, ambiance or on-road performance. He then say's that in an ideal world, he would drive across Spain in the Defender before switching to something like a Jeep or Grenadier for the more arduous stages. Makes me wonder. Other than an out and out road vehicle, what is the point of the new Defender if it can't be relied upon for the off-sections?

 

[curb-optional]

One thing about the Grenadier (and l speak as a ND owner) is that it's more "off road fit"

That is, you won't mind taking a Grenadier into the bush, or canyons.

Where as the Defender is just as capable, but a bit too precious. Imagine getting a scratch in the door of your Grenadier from some bushes, you'd shrug it off and keep going.
lf that happened in a Defender you'd be crying into your coffee, imagining the cost of rectifying it when you got home.

very accurate point Lightning! I've been to the LR showroom -the NDs sparkle. You can rough it up: A frame protection, skid plates, and fender/wheel protection, but it's not going to look as rough and tumble as a Grenadier. The Grenadier is probably 500 lbs heavier, smaller, and the steal bumper (great out in the bush), are potential hazards in congested parking lots. Most SUVs have tinsel front & rear - crunch zones -so that when an accident happens, the front or rear "collapse," which helps lessen the impact to occupant or other party. If you want to drive in a field, a weak bumper is not good - it's a detriment- and you don't need crumple zones. So Grenadier has an awesome set up for its stated intent, and doesn't need to look as gentle as ND. ND - on the other hand - does need to be gentle in certain ways, as it is very likely to spend alot of time around pedestrians, other small cars, and tight garage spaces.

Look at the Grenadier roof, which they built so strongly that you can walk on it; all of it, or any part. That is a fantastic feature that no other SUV out there has. If you want a strong roof, it's Grenadier and ... nobody. The ND - for whatever bizzare reason - has a good size hole in the center of the roof. [OK, it's where they put a panoramic window - it's not open, but still, it's not metal, it's glass]. Structurally, a hole - or glass- should weaken the roof from what it could be if designed as one solid metal reinforced structure. The hole & glass roof choice on ND is inferior to Grenadier in that it would prohibit the functional use of the entire roof space. You can perhaps walk on the edges of the ND roof, but it's not a full functional roof that can be weight bearing at all points, as Grenadier designed. JLR will say ND was not interested in optimizing space on the roof for adventure needs; Grenadier thought tremendously about roof uses, and - if you want to - you can get up there to tie stuff on it. I wouldn't stand on ND's glass roof, even if they said it can hold you. It's just not purposeful. Those things Grenadier did added weight, but also added strength and thus expanded productive uses in the field. The question for all consumers, of course, is what fits your needs best....

 

[lightning]

The Defender is a great piece of design, and l love mine, but as you say the front and rear bumpers are a complex construction that you wouldn't want to hit against a rock.

The old Defender had a steel front bumper, if you bashed it on something a new one was around £70, took ten minutes to change. The Grenadier looks to be a similar construction, maybe more than £70 to replace the bumper but a simple job if needed.

The Defender is fine for me as l don't really go off road more than green lanes, fields and farm tracks.

l would be buying the Grenadier just because l love the look of it and it looks like it will be easier to repair.

 

[Spjnr]

The owner of a 4x4 tour company in Yorkshire takes the Grenadier out for a test drive and posts his feedback on YouTube.
He does have one on order and is prepared to gamble his own money on the vehicle. He goes on to say how the Grenadier doesn't touch the new Defender for comfort, ambiance or on-road performance. He then say's that in an ideal world, he would drive across Spain in the Defender before switching to something like a Jeep or Grenadier for the more arduous stages. Makes me wonder. Other than an out and out road vehicle, what is the point of the new Defender if it can't be relied upon for the off-sections?

Having had my grenadier for a few days now, and racked up a few motorway miles already, I can say that it's bloody awesome on the highway. It cruises effortlessly at 80mph, steering is lovely at speed, breaks are great, comfort and seating position (including footrest) are great, noise levels are very subdued for the type of vehicle it it.

Anyone who thinks a New defender would be needed to do a drive down to Morocco needs their head checked. The Grenadier is a comfortable place to be, and has all the mod cons you need to enjoy a long stint behind the wheel. Plus when you get there, you actually have some axle articulation and propper lockers unlike the JLR defender.

Truth is, the grenadier hits all the criteria pretty well, maybe its not the best at all of them, but it's at least runner up in most of the categories that matter to those who want a practical, capable touring rig with offroad chops.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

The turbo on my 2.0L 4 cyl. LR2 cracked. The tailpipe was spewing white cloudy smoke, and I had a cabin smell of gas or oil. When I went to my local garage, who has a fancy BMW sign up there saying they fix foreign cars - he tried. He replaced a few parts, but wasn't able to identify the problem and the smoke/smells continued. The dealer, fully invested in just LRs, hooked some "smoke" test up to it, and learned the turbo cracked a bit. It was likely not visible, nor able to be found in an electronic reading. The dealer had that fancy smoke thing, and then used visual inspection (knowing how the turbo/engine was supposed to meld together), found the crack, replaced my turbo, and the problem is indeed gone. So, long story short, I would say that as a current owner of one of the most basic modern LRs out there, the mechanical set up is still not something you're going to be able to rely on you local garage for. I'm looking at ND, and I have a good rapport with my local dealer, but if someone said they don't want to have to go back to the dealer for service, or fixing their SUV themselves is part of the ownership experience they want, I'm not sure I'd suggest any LR. If you believe LRs to be "over engineered," then the folks most likely to know when something is amiss are going to be the folks that have spent the time to learn exactly how the LR was over engineered. Not knowing what LR does differently from other manufacturers (maybe like BMW), my local garage, nice as he was, had a few chances with my LR, but ultimately he could not be relied up for continuous LR care. To be fair, even if you work with your LR dealer, you have to advocate. You have to make sure they go over and through everything, or else you can end up "off the road" .

This is a very helpful perspective, thank you! I was 100% in on the Gren until very recently so I'm in the early stages of evaluating the ND for my needs. I had done some evaluative work with the ND was new, but then the Gren started to materialize and it quickly became clear that the Gren was the better tool for my application. The ND is my second choice, and I would say it's a distant second for a lot of reasons. But, it might be the more attainable choice for me when the time comes to get one.

To you later post in response to @lightning, I do want to stick up for the green oval on one thing: You are right that you don't need crumple zones in a field, but for touring, those fields are separated by miles and miles of highway. In a touring context, I'm way more likely to meet my maker on the motorway than I am in the field or backcountry. So, I would prioritize crumple zones and crashing well over a vehicle that was more "old school" and did not crash well. That being said, I don't know yet how the Grenadier fares in this regard but I suspect thanks to modern engineering and safety standards, it should be pretty good -- whether it's as good as the New Defender, which crashes really well, remains to be seen, but there's no question that the ND is a very safe vehicle.

But to the rest of your point about the design -- in my mind, the ND has a lot of "they've got the spirit of it, but the execution leaves a lot of questions" in terms of the final result. It's very bizarre to me -- Land Rover is one of the only manufacturers out there that actually gives you decent, expedition/touring-related specs for their vehicles. For example:

• They give you access to a static and dynamic roof load rating (good luck getting that for a Midsize truck or other 4x4 wagons).
• They give really clear wading depth capabilities which are impressive (Not gonna find that on the Toyota Tacoma).
• They provide a tow rating for on road, and they significantly reduce it for off-road to reflect the extra forces that this environment puts on a chassis (Literally only seen that on military vehicles over here, and as a consequence, there are a lot of vehicles with broken backs because they felt they were OK to take their 4800 lbs "Overland Trailer" off-road behind their 5000lbs rated 4x4).
• And they tell you that the front and rear tow points are designed to sling your Defender up by a helicopter.

But then in the way they achieved these specifications:

• The roof, as you mentioned, has a giant piece of glass or fabric in it, so to utilize that capacity you have to mount an obtrusive rack which makes the sunroof not very functional...Safari Panels as the Gren has are clearly a better design.
• They achieve the excellent wading depth by having these channels in the front bumper/fascia area that diverts water away from critical components...which means mounting a serious bullbar, as is required by the majority of people who are likely to actually do any wading, is between difficult and impossible. ARB won't even make one for the ND, and that's saying something. Oh, and then they stick a couple of radiators in that part that they make difficult to impossible to protect? C'mon....
• The tow rating seems fine and logical, but the towbar is an electronic protrusion that comes out when you touch it in just the right way (phrasing!!). What's wrong with a 2" receiver and a pin??
• The helicopter lift points actually get no critique from me. Given the reliability concerns I like the idea of being able to call in a chopper for recovery

Anyway, I think both are fine tools, but it feels like everytime I read something that I'm excited about on the ND, as I dig more, I find myself going: "....why? Why did you do it this way, Land Rover?". With the Gren, it's been the opposite -- "Oh it can do that? How? Ah okay. That just makes good sense."

 

[lightning]

l've been in a Grenadier on the motorway/highway and while my Defender is better, the Grenadier is still absolutely fine.
l wasn't driving so can't comment on the steering.
It's an absolute revelation if you've been driving an old model Defender like l have!

Anyone buying a Grenadier will find it cruises at 70mph just fine and l wouldn't hesitate to take one on a long motorway/highway journey.

 

[lightning]

l should clarify the above, my NEW 2022 Defender is better but the Grenadier is a revelation compared to the OLD 2005 Defender l had before.

 

[Max]

Anyone buying a Grenadier will find it cruises at 70mph just fine and l wouldn't hesitate to take one on a long motorway/highway journey.

I think Lewis Hamilton at top speed would agree with you...watch the video or take one for a drive...it is a beast as Daveb would say

 

[Max]

I find it interesting that we are comparing two totally different vehicles...but can you compare identical twins?

 

[Tazzieman]

No question the ND is a tough and rugged rig — look at the ones that they thrashed while making the new bond film; there’s a behind the scenes video of NDs going very high in the sky, slamming down at odd angles, and unlike the Dukes of Hazzard rig, the New Defender drove away.

Mods help Fake plastic spare wheel also
"In came a full roll cage and an FIA-approved fuel-cell. Sticking with the rally theme, Morrison insisted that the Defender also be fitted with a hydraulic handbrake to add extra agility in the heat of battle and cope with holding it on a 65-degree incline for hours at a time.

After scouting the Scottish mountain, the stunt team also asked Land Rover to add a steel panel for the roof to give the driver added protection against the threat of a tree stumps penetrating the Land Rover’s interior during rollover. Finally, thicker aluminium bash plates lie beneath to give the Defender X even more protection."