New Defender vs Ineos Grenadier

[curb-optional]

I just don't agree with this notion that the Grenadier needs more "luxury" to make it compete with the new defender.

What is "luxury"? Leather and chrome surfaces? These are just theatrical effects. It's the same car underneath.

Have you sat in a grenadier? Do you need a Range Rover?

Luxury has many definitions - don't go all over the map. For my purpose - as a buyer of an SUV - it's a great interior matched with a great and capable underside/build. I'm not looking for either or, I'm looking for both. In my market - the US - we had the LC for years. It was $85k and had a fantastic interior - all the bells and whistles - but it was not luxury looking. For perspective, it was twice the cost of a 4Runner. If all you wanted was capable, you'd talk yourself out of LC quickly. But LC had a way better interior than the 4Runner, plus the parts/construction was somehow different and stronger (and the 4Runner is exceptionally well built.) Whatever toyota did, they did something extra with the US LC, and it cost 2x the 4Runner. But even at 2x a 4Runner, it was not a lux mobile. Folks that didn't know the vehicle thought it looked like the Highlander (exactly the point)! The LC had all the traction control, electronics, and 18'' rims - just what you need to do whatever on difficult terrain. You're off base with the RR comparison - that's you defining "luxury" as only flashy, which surely there is lots of that. A RR comp is the Mercedes GLS or Lexus LX. If you look at New Defender, it's closest comp - to me - is the discontinued LC. the LC was intentionally understated, but still exceptionally capable and livable as a daily driver SUV. don't forget livable. don't overlook that feature. livable as a daily drive SUV can quickly strike out Rubicon/Bronco. It's not the off road that makes Rubicon a stand out, so much as the fact that on the highway, wouldn't you rather be in a LC? Of course, which is why it was $85k... And it's why folks that wanted LC now look at New Defender.

By pretending new defender is a RR, you totally overlook the market the LC sold to. You can't go Rubicon vs. RR. That old LC market has folks that don't mind an $85k SUV, so long as it has everything: functional durability, pleasant and comfortable interior, and no rough edges while driving. That's one definition of luxury. The LC was not a "theatrical" SUV. It allowed the SUV to do what the rubicon driver does on the drive to the ski slope, but the LC will have a great highway drive home, whereas that Rubicon is going to be loud and wobbly if it's loaded up and doing 80 mph. Luxury of not having that cramped and loud driving experience, and not worrying about being stuck anywhere, as the LC was capable and prepared. so yea, if the Grenadier has an interior like a LC would I think that's a good idea? absolutely. But the LC was never, ever, remotely a G wagon. Don't go wild with a definition of luxury, "chrome" and all, because then you end up at the end of the line: the G wagon. "luxury" for the new defender driver is not having to negotiate space in the front with another passenger - there's plenty of room for multiple phones, coffees, water bottles, etc. Rubicon gets tricky when folks have stuff - it's cramped. Not having to deal with that is the luxury of LC and new defender. For the Grenadier, "luxury" could be offering heated back row seats, a heated steering wheel, and plenty of room for passenger stuff in doors, glove box, dashboard, etc. That's not chrome - it's basic space in the vehicle for all the things most folks walk around with. When I was in a Rubicon I noticed something hitting my leg- it was the strap that attached the front door. The top was vynal - forget conversations on the highway. The sales guy showed me how to fold the roof and pack it in the trunk. Oh, you mean right there, where a suitcase would be if I were traveling?? The trunk was small due to the roll bars. I get all the off road ability of Rubicon - it's awesome - but as a daily use family SUV, it's not even close to what new defender has, absolutely nowhere near a LC. I would love it if Grenadier had something that was LC like, but we'll have to see how it develops... also, bty, I don't think many cars are the same underneath as LC. say what you want, they ran smooth, handled well, and didn't break. so, no, it's absolutely not "all the same car underneath." there are differences in build quality, parts use, and a better build quality is a luxury. it's not visible until you break down, but it's a luxury to have a well build SUV like the LC was.

 

[curb-optional]

For what its worth, the 200-series only sold about 3,300 units per year.

200-series sales in the United States (Source: Good Car Bad Car)

2017	3,100
2018	3,235
2019	3,536
2020	3,146
2021	3,711

yea, i know all about LC. don't overlook sibling LX numbers. they sold as many LC here as they could build and wanted to ship. those numbers don't show the LC popularity - it shows the # of LC toyota chose to allocate to the US market. If toyota wanted to sell 5,000 annually in the US, I'm sure they would have. but LX makes them more money, and pushing LX was likely a consideration for LC capacity. the LX is a flashy and substantially more expensive LC version. you can end up with a $125k LX, so if toyota were selling $85k LC here, it may have had some impact to LX sales.

 

[Boston Boy]

Just a picky note (I know, laugh at me), but naming the vehicle you are talking about with just the two or three letter abbreviation is confusing to those of us who are acronym impaired.

 

[DaveB]

Luxury has many definitions - don't go all over the map. For my purpose - as a buyer of an SUV - it's a great interior matched with a great and capable underside/build. I'm not looking for either or, I'm looking for both. In my market - the US - we had the LC for years. It was $85k and had a fantastic interior - all the bells and whistles - but it was not luxury looking. For perspective, it was twice the cost of a 4Runner. If all you wanted was capable, you'd talk yourself out of LC quickly. But LC had a way better interior than the 4Runner, plus the parts/construction was somehow different and stronger (and the 4Runner is exceptionally well built.) Whatever toyota did, they did something extra with the US LC, and it cost 2x the 4Runner. But even at 2x a 4Runner, it was not a lux mobile. Folks that didn't know the vehicle thought it looked like the Highlander (exactly the point)! The LC had all the traction control, electronics, and 18'' rims - just what you need to do whatever on difficult terrain. You're off base with the RR comparison - that's you defining "luxury" as only flashy, which surely there is lots of that. A RR comp is the Mercedes GLS or Lexus LX. If you look at New Defender, it's closest comp - to me - is the discontinued LC. the LC was intentionally understated, but still exceptionally capable and livable as a daily driver SUV. don't forget livable. don't overlook that feature. livable as a daily drive SUV can quickly strike out Rubicon/Bronco. It's not the off road that makes Rubicon a stand out, so much as the fact that on the highway, wouldn't you rather be in a LC? Of course, which is why it was $85k... And it's why folks that wanted LC now look at New Defender.

By pretending new defender is a RR, you totally overlook the market the LC sold to. You can't go Rubicon vs. RR. That old LC market has folks that don't mind an $85k SUV, so long as it has everything: functional durability, pleasant and comfortable interior, and no rough edges while driving. That's one definition of luxury. The LC was not a "theatrical" SUV. It allowed the SUV to do what the rubicon driver does on the drive to the ski slope, but the LC will have a great highway drive home, whereas that Rubicon is going to be loud and wobbly if it's loaded up and doing 80 mph. Luxury of not having that cramped and loud driving experience, and not worrying about being stuck anywhere, as the LC was capable and prepared. so yea, if the Grenadier has an interior like a LC would I think that's a good idea? absolutely. But the LC was never, ever, remotely a G wagon. Don't go wild with a definition of luxury, "chrome" and all, because then you end up at the end of the line: the G wagon. "luxury" for the new defender driver is not having to negotiate space in the front with another passenger - there's plenty of room for multiple phones, coffees, water bottles, etc. Rubicon gets tricky when folks have stuff - it's cramped. Not having to deal with that is the luxury of LC and new defender. For the Grenadier, "luxury" could be offering heated back row seats, a heated steering wheel, and plenty of room for passenger stuff in doors, glove box, dashboard, etc. That's not chrome - it's basic space in the vehicle for all the things most folks walk around with. When I was in a Rubicon I noticed something hitting my leg- it was the strap that attached the front door. The top was vynal - forget conversations on the highway. The sales guy showed me how to fold the roof and pack it in the trunk. Oh, you mean right there, where a suitcase would be if I were traveling?? The trunk was small due to the roll bars. I get all the off road ability of Rubicon - it's awesome - but as a daily use family SUV, it's not even close to what new defender has, absolutely nowhere near a LC. I would love it if Grenadier had something that was LC like, but we'll have to see how it develops... also, bty, I don't think many cars are the same underneath as LC. say what you want, they ran smooth, handled well, and didn't break. so, no, it's absolutely not "all the same car underneath." there are differences in build quality, parts use, and a better build quality is a luxury. it's not visible until you break down, but it's a luxury to have a well build SUV like the LC was.

Many of us on the forum who have purchased a Grenadier are comparing it more against other vehicles that we would be happy to own for 20+ years and are happy to let get out of warranty.
If you are looking for a vehicle you will replace in 3-5 years time then the comparison list changes completely.
Personally I would not want to let any JLR product get out of warranty and have some doubts if it will even survive as a brand.
Mercedes and BMW have generally speaking extremely good build quality and reliability, but don't really have any products that you would take off road.
The MB G Wagon isn't really a Mercedes and would be a good choice but is now only available in AMG G63 drug dealer spec here.
That leaves us with a raft of SUV's but the only ones you would take offroad are the Toyota Landcruiser's or Nissan Patrol.
Either would be a great choice but both are more expensive than the Grenadier.
The question of reliability and longevity for the Grenadier is an unknown factor however even if Ineos were to disappear as a brand all of the major components are top tier manufacturers, with long histories.

 

[Tazzieman]

Imagine you're on safari in Africa and you've bagged away the windows and a lion comes along, fancying some tinned human. Could be a problem.

I can only imagine.
But would a lion fit? Or would it wear you down with a paw and an evil grin?
In Australia I'd be more concerned about a junior drop bear, vicious little things.
Luckily for me they only exist on the mainland of Australia!

 

[DaveB]

I can only imagine.
But would a lion fit? Or would it wear you down with a paw and an evil grin?
In Australia I'd be more concerned about a junior drop bear, vicious little things.
Luckily for me they only exist on the mainland of Australia!

I had my roof open and a Lorikeet flew in and landed on the passenger seat while I was stopped in traffic.
Then it flew into the back seat and around the inside of the car.
I put both windows down and finally got out and opened the door.

 

[Tazzieman]

I had my roof open and a Lorikeet flew in and landed on the passenger seat while I was stopped in traffic.
Then it flew into the back seat and around the inside of the car.
I put both windows down and finally got out and opened the door.

View attachment 7812838

You have a colourful spider there. Mine are usually mushroom coloured and fall off the sunvisor!

 

[lightning]

You're really lucky to be able to own both vehicles.
Looking forward to your ongoing thoughts on the Grenadier.
l own a new Defender 90 Commercial,it's the basic coil spring version with steel wheels, and it's superb.
However l do like the look of the Grenadier.

 

[Wayneos]

I had my roof open and a Lorikeet flew in and landed on the passenger seat while I was stopped in traffic.
Then it flew into the back seat and around the inside of the car.
I put both windows down and finally got out and opened the door.

View attachment 7812838

Did it shit everywhere? A bloody Currawong reeked havoc in our car once. Not whilst in traffic fortunately!

 

[DaveB]

Did it shit everywhere? A bloody Currawong reeked havoc in our car once. Not whilst in traffic fortunately!

View attachment 7812840

No
It did leave some nice scratches on the leather seats and consol though

 

[ADVAW8S]

Oh no! Not a Yukon! and an XL Yukon. I get it -you think the 110 is tight space. but is that the old 110? the new 110 Defender seems pretty roomy to me... That said, Suburbans and Expeditions are very popular by me, but I don't want that size. The LR4 was also popular, and the new 110 defender seems just a bit bigger than that, but I know full well, it's not a Tahoe. Do you think Grenadier can be daily use SUV?

We did the yukon xl for when the dogs and kids are on vacation with us. We have a toddler and a 4 year old. Luggage takes up all the space in defender. The two dogs would be left home and that is not happening. We went with yukon xl because the two dogs get the third row. The kids get captain chairs and the luggage fills the back with room to spare. If the dogs are not coming then we load the Defender just fine. It was so much easier with one kid. We could put dogs with the kid and luggage in back.

 

[globalgregors]

For what its worth, the 200-series only sold about 3,300 units per year.

200-series sales in the United States (Source: Good Car Bad Car)

2017	3,100
2018	3,235
2019	3,536
2020	3,146
2021	3,711

I think peak LC-200 sales in Australia in 2021, when COVID saw Australians holidaying at home and an end to the V8 was on the horizon, were in the realm of 20,000 units.

2022 was ~25,000 for all LandCruiser variants versus ~64,000 Hilux. This obviously has a sizable contribution from fleet sales, including mining where (regrettably) vehicles are sometimes regarded as a complex consumable.

I think the Grenadier may be better understood through the lens of these markets than through the lens of the US lifestyle and recreational SUV market. The crappy plastics, no subwoofer and small glovebox etc falls away somewhat as a concern, and indeed the EV & H2 versions make sense as emissions standards bite for fleet operators.

The long wheelbase and drug dealer lux variant to come might be more directed to US buyer values than the SW.

 

[curb-optional]

Many of us on the forum who have purchased a Grenadier are comparing it more against other vehicles that we would be happy to own for 20+ years and are happy to let get out of warranty.
If you are looking for a vehicle you will replace in 3-5 years time then the comparison list changes completely.
Personally I would not want to let any JLR product get out of warranty and have some doubts if it will even survive as a brand.
Mercedes and BMW have generally speaking extremely good build quality and reliability, but don't really have any products that you would take off road.
The MB G Wagon isn't really a Mercedes and would be a good choice but is now only available in AMG G63 drug dealer spec here.
That leaves us with a raft of SUV's but the only ones you would take offroad are the Toyota Landcruiser's or Nissan Patrol.
Either would be a great choice but both are more expensive than the Grenadier.
The question of reliability and longevity for the Grenadier is an unknown factor however even if Ineos were to disappear as a brand all of the major components are top tier manufacturers, with long histories.

View attachment 7812836

I agree about the maintenance concerns with LR in general. Unfortunately for us in the US, the LC is no longer sold here. Toyota is trying to move those folks to the Lexus LX, but it's an expensive ugly mess of flashy chrome - a RR alternative if ever there was one. My existing LR has been on the road now almost 9 years, and true to brand, it does have small things that only the dealer is able to fix. My version is the LR2, which is a basic model. Maybe unlike others on the forum, I'd be highly likely to go with a LC in the US if they still sold them. It has more of what I want vs. the Grenadier, because a good number of my boxes to check include family stats. I'm looking at Grenadier, new Defender (fantastic interior), and maybe something like Wagoneer (although I know, going from JLR to Jeep is like going from the frying pan into the fire in terms of quality and potential issues....) If you want a family friendly SUV that can do some light off-road needs (trails, snow, icy road, etc.) there's not alot of choices in the US.

 

[curb-optional]

I don't think that analysis is wrong. New Defender was designed to sell 100k per annum as part of JLR's strategy to get to 1m annual sales.

Ineos are looking at @25k annual sales, so can be more focused.


When you have JLR senior management briefing that their warranty costs are too high ~ more than double what they would like ~ then it has the ring of truth about it.

I agree with your point there's a difference between purposeful off road shoppers and new defender shoppers. I doubt new defender will reach 100k annual sales - that seems lofty! Maybe in a decade it could reach that run rate- but after 5? model years, I don't think it's ever been over 20k in annual production. LC sold under 10k/yr. and if they had wanted to, I'm sure it could have been 20k. But 100k?! I am looking at new defender; as much as I love the looks of old defender, I'd never buy one. there's a dealer by me with a dozen old defenders on the lot (that's all they do is fix and repair these things) & I've never bothered to visit the dealer because it's never going to happen. i need a daily drive, dependable, family use SUV that won't get stuck while on vacation (in sand, mud, snow, whatever). I've not been to a Grenadier roadshow yet, but I've sat in a Rubicon, and sitting in it was all the time I needed to know it was not for me and my family use needs. I found the interior unbearably tiny, cramped. The Jeep dealer quickly put me in their Grand Wagoneer . When Ineos started a few years ago, I wasn't sure if they were going to try for the LC segment Toyota had just - coincidenly - abandoned? It's looking more like Ineos up'd Bronco, which up'd Wrangler, so now it's a competitive market for true off-road only types. The LC model was more my design goal for the Grenadier: solid build, over engineered off-roading features, yet still wicked comfortable on the inside for 5 full grown adults. The LC was 2x the cost of a 4Runner or Wrangler, so it was not an alternative - it had a totally separate marketplace of shoppers. Off road needs were TRD 4Runner - but for those that wanted off road capable + required family uber friendly, Toyota had that LC here for a long time. I think Ineos can get to 25k annual sales, but it's going to be pulling mostly from Bronco/Wrangler buyers. To make it a New Defender alternative, it has to offer an interior to compete with the new defender (size, comfort, space, etc), and I don't think that's Ineos' target market.

 

[DCPU]

I doubt new defender will reach 100k annual sales - that seems lofty! Maybe in a decade it could reach that run rate- but after 5? model years, I don't think it's ever been over 20k in annual production.

New Defender sales were just over 45,000 in FY20/21 and over 61,000 in FY21/22 - I think they went up again in the year just ended.

 

[BD1]

I agree with your point there's a difference between purposeful off road shoppers and new defender shoppers. I doubt new defender will reach 100k annual sales - that seems lofty! Maybe in a decade it could reach that run rate- but after 5? model years, I don't think it's ever been over 20k in annual production. LC sold under 10k/yr. and if they had wanted to, I'm sure it could have been 20k. But 100k?! I am looking at new defender; as much as I love the looks of old defender, I'd never buy one. there's a dealer by me with a dozen old defenders on the lot (that's all they do is fix and repair these things) & I've never bothered to visit the dealer because it's never going to happen. i need a daily drive, dependable, family use SUV that won't get stuck while on vacation (in sand, mud, snow, whatever). I've not been to a Grenadier roadshow yet, but I've sat in a Rubicon, and sitting in it was all the time I needed to know it was not for me and my family use needs. I found the interior unbearably tiny, cramped. The Jeep dealer quickly put me in their Grand Wagoneer . When Ineos started a few years ago, I wasn't sure if they were going to try for the LC segment Toyota had just - coincidenly - abandoned? It's looking more like Ineos up'd Bronco, which up'd Wrangler, so now it's a competitive market for true off-road only types. The LC model was more my design goal for the Grenadier: solid build, over engineered off-roading features, yet still wicked comfortable on the inside for 5 full grown adults. The LC was 2x the cost of a 4Runner or Wrangler, so it was not an alternative - it had a totally separate marketplace of shoppers. Off road needs were TRD 4Runner - but for those that wanted off road capable + required family uber friendly, Toyota had that LC here for a long time. I think Ineos can get to 25k annual sales, but it's going to be pulling mostly from Bronco/Wrangler buyers. To make it a New Defender alternative, it has to offer an interior to compete with the new defender (size, comfort, space, etc), and I don't think that's Ineos' target market.

I have a new defender and will be switching to grenadier. At my prototype drive in Chicago area there were 2 other new defenders. I talked to one of the other owners and he is switching also.

 

[DaBull]

I agree with your point there's a difference between purposeful off road shoppers and new defender shoppers. I doubt new defender will reach 100k annual sales - that seems lofty! Maybe in a decade it could reach that run rate- but after 5? model years, I don't think it's ever been over 20k in annual production. LC sold under 10k/yr. and if they had wanted to, I'm sure it could have been 20k. But 100k?! I am looking at new defender; as much as I love the looks of old defender, I'd never buy one. there's a dealer by me with a dozen old defenders on the lot (that's all they do is fix and repair these things) & I've never bothered to visit the dealer because it's never going to happen. i need a daily drive, dependable, family use SUV that won't get stuck while on vacation (in sand, mud, snow, whatever). I've not been to a Grenadier roadshow yet, but I've sat in a Rubicon, and sitting in it was all the time I needed to know it was not for me and my family use needs. I found the interior unbearably tiny, cramped. The Jeep dealer quickly put me in their Grand Wagoneer . When Ineos started a few years ago, I wasn't sure if they were going to try for the LC segment Toyota had just - coincidenly - abandoned? It's looking more like Ineos up'd Bronco, which up'd Wrangler, so now it's a competitive market for true off-road only types. The LC model was more my design goal for the Grenadier: solid build, over engineered off-roading features, yet still wicked comfortable on the inside for 5 full grown adults. The LC was 2x the cost of a 4Runner or Wrangler, so it was not an alternative - it had a totally separate marketplace of shoppers. Off road needs were TRD 4Runner - but for those that wanted off road capable + required family uber friendly, Toyota had that LC here for a long time. I think Ineos can get to 25k annual sales, but it's going to be pulling mostly from Bronco/Wrangler buyers. To make it a New Defender alternative, it has to offer an interior to compete with the new defender (size, comfort, space, etc), and I don't think that's Ineos' target market.

Hi curb-optional, Having owned a new 2020 110 Defender for the last 2 1/2 years I can assure you it is one of the finest vehicles ever produced. I am just as in love with it now as when I picked it up. I have the P400 straight 6 petrol engine and the performance is seamless and breathtaking at 0-60 in just 5.8 seconds. No need to purchase a Porsche, miles of thrills and smiles. Extremely smooth on road and extremely capable off road too. Likely the number one best 50/50 on-road / off-road vehicle in the world. Yes, I am switching to a Grenadier, however it's not because I do not love my Defender. Just ready for a new adventure and I figure if it does not meet all my expectations, I'll simply go back and buy another Defender and continue the love affair. DaBull

 

[lightning]

I have a new defender and will be switching to grenadier. At my prototype drive in Chicago area there were 2 other new defenders. I talked to one of the other owners and he is switching also.

l am looking to do the same, l love my Defender but the Grenadier just looks awesome.
l don't mind the compromises such as the steering not being so direct on road etc because it's going to be a lot better than my 2005 Defender and l did 90,000 miles in that as a daily with no issues.

 

[Cheshire cat]

Just had my Grenadier a day and it's parked on the drive next to our six-month old Defender 110. I don't love the Grenadier yet but I'll give it time. No software issues but I can't find anywhere in the handbook how to leave the alarm off when it's locked. You really have to slam the driver's door, suspect it's a poor adjustment as rear door is not so stiff. It's a long way down too for my wife, she's going to need those steps

It is what it is - a heavy, solid, reasonably well appointed workhorse. I've no doubt it will run and run. Will I be taking it to Scotland tomorrow on my fishing trip? I don't think so. I want to get there in comfort and the Defender's ride is something else. Ah, you say but it's going to break down. Well it hasn't done so yet.

Sitting in the Grenadier is like going back in time. The indicator almost echoes and the wipers feel quite retro. The exterior is really solid but the interior is a bit disappointing and plasticky. That of the Defender is really well thought out with lots of storage slots and spaces, while the Grenadier has about as much front
compartment storage as my old Porsche Macan.

The steering isn't a problem, but I don't like it. The foot rest equally isn't an issue so far. But on a long run? Not so sure. No adjustable lumbar support but seats feel reasonably supportive. Rear load space is impressive, better than the Defender with seats up, a real shame the seats don't fold flat. As for that great big bag for the safari windows. What's that all about? Imagine you're on safari in Africa and you've bagged away the windows and a lion comes along, fancying some tinned human. Could be a problem.

For sure, the Grenadier looks the business and it's going to perform well off road. But so does the Defender and I've come to like its looks. It's brilliany designed, is more comfortable, has more poke, and is far more economical than the Grenadier. Not sure how long we'll run them side by side but my wife says she really likes what she calls "the beast". Yup the Grenadier certainly has a presence but I'm chary about the cult that's built up around this machine.

A very fair and interesting review from someone who owns both. Having only owned mine a few hours I can't comment to that extent as yet. That said, I never got bored of my old Defender. I simply got a bit too old for it and wanted the same but with more poke and more comfort. I think I might have found the very thing.

 

[acwiltshire]

The 130 is a bit of a beast

The 110 should be good for three in the back, l guess it depends on their size, the Grenadier looks better in that respect.

The love has already started for the Grenadier. Minor issues are seen as "character" and people are falling in love with the vehicle before they finish the first drive home.

l think this is great. The Grenadier is a breath of fresh air, l am sure lneos will sort out the software issues, l think they rushed to release the vehicle before it was quite ready.

I would say I fell in love with mine when I saw it at the dealer but couldn't have it for a month. when I drove it home it got better.