INEOS will NOT protect order holders in the US from dealer markups

[Caladan]

When I ordered my Bronco Badlands in December '21, I told my sales rep that I would give him MSRP and not a penny more. If they toyed with me, then I would walk. I then had the dealership prepare a purchase order for MSRP (less my deposit) and the document was signed by me and the Sales Manager. Fast forward 10 months later, Ford built and delivered my Bronco and the dealership honored the agreement. No Additional Dealer Markup (ADM) or any other funny business. Just the straight MSRP as originally agreed upon. I tell this story because it's way too easy to allow fear to run away with your head. If you want a Grenadier and are willing to wait, then ride the wave. Granted it's a pretty crappy time to be buying a new car (e.g., high interest rates) but the order/build/delivery is part of the adventure. And adventure is all about having skin in the game and not knowing how the hell it will all play out.

 

[Norb-TX]

This is a new dealership network, I'm sure there won't be games played. There will only be one dealer per city, and they can't risk alienating potential future sales.

 

[AZGrenadier]

People here are comparing two different things. If you walk into a Porsche Dealer and want to buy a 911 Dakar you will most likely be paying an extra 100k over list. If you can find an allocation. At this point you aren’t purchasing the vehicle from Porsche, you are buying it from the local dealer. You can’t log into Porsche.com and purchase the car, you have to purchase an allocation that the dealer has. Ineos isn’t allocating dealers a certain number of cars, at least not yet. You deal directly with Ineos and then simply choose the dealer you want to ship the car to. It isn’t the dealers allocation, it is your allocation, at least not initially. Now let’s say you decide you want to wait a year and pass on the available allocations right now. At that point it is possible that Ineos is no longer giving the allocations to the customer but to the dealer. At this point you may be paying 30k for the allocation (the privilege of being able to order one) and then the purchase price of the truck. Right now I think there is a very good chance you will be getting it at MSRP, next year who knows.

 

[DCPU]

Hello, following up, I did hear back a second time to my follow up questions:

1. He cannot disclose what plans they have to deal with dealers who break that good faith. Understandable.

So alternative headline could quite easily be:

"INEOS have secret plans to protect order holders in the US from dealer markups"

 

[DCPU]

An American buyer will NOT have a contract with Ineos. Technically we will have to place our order to Ineos through an authorized dealer.

If we are talking about the first wave of buyers, then no an American buyer, who has placed a reservation with Ineos direct will then convert it to an order direct with Ineos. This is explained in full in the video with Greg Clark ~ watch it from about 7:20.

Obviously, once the dealerships are up and running in full, then situation may revert to a more traditional dealer model.

All this is of course based on what they have said they are planning to do. Plans may change...

 

[CB]

This is a recent example of one of the many unforeseen/dealer created issues which may occur when purchasing a vehicle in the US.

https://www.carscoops.com/2023/03/ford-cracks-down-on-flippers-confirms-it-will-penalize-dealers-selling-to-resellers/

 

[Sulley]

It will be. It looks like an incredible vehicle. Appreciate that they are unapologetically old school, but they’ll find their US stride in a couple iterations and then it will be unstoppable.

Worth saying, it could have been a much bigger hit in the US already had they adopted the consumer direct model. Even if they didn’t sell in all fifty states, not having to go through a scummy dealer to buy a car would have attracted an overwhelming response from Americans. This was a big missed opportunity.

 

[Texas Grenadier]

All of this because some customer service rep said so!!! I love it. What a dumpster fire!!

 

[Norb-TX]

Worth saying, it could have been a much bigger hit in the US already had they adopted the consumer direct model. Even if they didn’t sell in all fifty states, not having to go through a scummy dealer to buy a car would have attracted an overwhelming response from Americans. This was a big missed opportunity.

Yea but dealers are also service centers. So we still need them.

 

[DCPU]

Worth saying, it could have been a much bigger hit in the US already had they adopted the consumer direct model. Even if they didn’t sell in all fifty states, not having to go through a scummy dealer to buy a car would have attracted an overwhelming response from Americans. This was a big missed opportunity.

You seem to have missed Ineos experience in large parts of Europe, where they've started off with the direct model but had to revert to the importer/dealer method as the sheer volume and complexity of tasks became apparent to a fledging company.

 

[lbrazelton]

What's interesting is if you go on Instagram for the Houston dealer Brazelton, they were (supposedly) applying to be a dealer for the IG. I went on their website a week or two ago and saw they had a "used" (I say that as it had 15 miles on it) Braptor for like $30k ADM as well (it's no longer shown as being in inventory). I asked on Insta if they'd try to pull that on the IG and they just said "Grenadier will have fixed pricing on their vehicles" - not really answering the overall question how they would treat potential customers. Of course, they're complicit based on what I saw for that one vehicle and would try if they could (e.g. order one for themselves and sell it as used). I'm not saying they'd do that on this vehicle, but the proof for that dealer is in the pudding. I question how they call 15 miles "used".

Since our name was thrown out here, I thought I'd add some color. We did have a Braptor in stock for $30k over sticker (it sold last week). We purchased it new from a Ford dealer for $20k over sticker (it was one of the first one's out). The dealer legally has to title every new car sold, which means we also paid TT&L, and thus makes the vehicle used regardless of the low mileage. We don't like paying over sticker for vehicles any more than anyone else does, but for the last 3 years that's been the reality of the market. As an independent (non-franchised) dealer and leasing company, if we said we would not pay over sticker, we could not have handled Land Cruisers, Escalades, Denalis, Range Rovers, Rover Sports, Defenders, Tahoes/Suburbans (Z71, Premier, HC trims), Broncos, G wagons, F250s, even work trucks/vans, etc. for our clients. Many of these still bring over sticker if not on an order. By the same token, I can't count the number of trades we've taken in the last few years that have been over what our client paid for the car and/or over MSRP.

As far as the Ineos Grenadier, we have applied to be a dealership. We are a long, long way from being awarded the franchise, but we're excited about the product (whether we get the store or not). We would not sell a new Grenadier over MSRP, in accordance with their guidelines. True, it's not a legal requirement, but it's how we would operate and I hope/expect other Ineos dealers to do so as well. More importantly, we have never and will never include "dealer adds", those surprise additions to the price you don't know about until closing. Additionally, we will continue to shop trades around to ensure our clients get top value, including Carmax bids. Dealer have at least as much profit on dealer adds and lowball trade bids recently as they have on market adjustments.

I hope that clarifies. We are attracted to the Grenadier in part because of the way they are doing business. It fits well with our business model and the approach to selling cars that we've had for over 20 years.
Lewis Brazelton

 

[ADVAW8S]

Worth saying, it could have been a much bigger hit in the US already had they adopted the consumer direct model. Even if they didn’t sell in all fifty states, not having to go through a scummy dealer to buy a car would have attracted an overwhelming response from Americans. This was a big missed opportunity.

@Sulley, I think we all can agree that doing a traditional dealer model sucks. When I had the opportunity to meet with Greg in 2022 at the Prototype your, he addressed this very clearly to the crowd.

Why not do what Tesla did? Many direct-to-consumer laws were written for Tesla. To sell direct to consumers, you have to be an electric car company and you have to manufacture in the US. Because Tesla fits those two requirements, they are sold directly to consumers. Tesla found a loophole and started selling direct. The laws were then written to catch up to Tesla. Keep in mind tesla in beginning was a small car manufacturer building the roadster. at the time they were not a big threat to the Car dealers in the US.
Greg also indicated that he could try to fight laws and it would take about 5 years of litigation and ton money. If Ineos went that route, why even sell in here in the US because the breakeven would be substantial.

I hope this helps explain why we have to go through a dealer. As @emax said, we should do a group buy to help keep it MSRP.

 

[mkennedy009]

This is great for me. All of you on the fence about ADM, don't put in an order until 2024. This will cause less IG demand in 2023 and bump me up to the front of the cue. Once I get the IG, I will charging as small fee for anyone who wants to experience the IG first hand in the PNW. Perfect plan.

In all jest, if Ineos sends you a contract to sign, take it to the dealer before you sign it and have them write you a contract based on that price. If they will not, move on to the next dealer. Also make sure to find all your local IG purchasers and do the same. If no dealers will honor the contract from Ineos, go back to them and say no and explain why. They will have power over these companies. All we have to do is get a few of them fired and the others will fall in line.

If you are following New Vehicle industry news, you will see the really smart people are predicting a glut in supply. Ford is a very good example, they have a glut of F150 just sitting on lots.

 

[mkennedy009]

@Sulley, I think we all can agree that doing a traditional dealer model sucks. When I had the opportunity to meet with Greg in 2022 at the Prototype your, he addressed this very clearly to the crowd.

Why not do what Tesla did? Many direct-to-consumer laws were written for Tesla. To sell direct to consumers, you have to be an electric car company and you have to manufacture in the US. Because Tesla fits those two requirements, they are sold directly to consumers. Tesla found a loophole and started selling direct. The laws were then written to catch up to Tesla. Keep in mind tesla in beginning was a small car manufacturer building the roadster. at the time they were not a big threat to the Car dealers in the US.
Greg also indicated that he could try to fight laws and it would take about 5 years of litigation and ton money. If Ineos went that route, why even sell in here in the US because the breakeven would be substantial.

I hope this helps explain why we have to go through a dealer. As @emax said, we should do a group buy to help keep it MSRP.

Because they are electric only, they got an exemption.

 

[Texas Grenadier]

Since our name was thrown out here, I thought I'd add some color. We did have a Braptor in stock for $30k over sticker (it sold last week). We purchased it new from a Ford dealer for $20k over sticker (it was one of the first one's out). The dealer legally has to title every new car sold, which means we also paid TT&L, and thus makes the vehicle used regardless of the low mileage. We don't like paying over sticker for vehicles any more than anyone else does, but for the last 3 years that's been the reality of the market. As an independent (non-franchised) dealer and leasing company, if we said we would not pay over sticker, we could not have handled Land Cruisers, Escalades, Denalis, Range Rovers, Rover Sports, Defenders, Tahoes/Suburbans (Z71, Premier, HC trims), Broncos, G wagons, F250s, even work trucks/vans, etc. for our clients. Many of these still bring over sticker if not on an order. By the same token, I can't count the number of trades we've taken in the last few years that have been over what our client paid for the car and/or over MSRP.

As far as the Ineos Grenadier, we have applied to be a dealership. We are a long, long way from being awarded the franchise, but we're excited about the product (whether we get the store or not). We would not sell a new Grenadier over MSRP, in accordance with their guidelines. True, it's not a legal requirement, but it's how we would operate and I hope/expect other Ineos dealers to do so as well. More importantly, we have never and will never include "dealer adds", those surprise additions to the price you don't know about until closing. Additionally, we will continue to shop trades around to ensure our clients get top value, including Carmax bids. Dealer have at least as much profit on dealer adds and lowball trade bids recently as they have on market adjustments.

I hope that clarifies. We are attracted to the Grenadier in part because of the way they are doing business. It fits well with our business model and the approach to selling cars that we've had for over 20 years.
Lewis Brazelton

Thanks for the clarification Lewis. As a long time follower and friend of Macks, i highly recommend Brazleton to anyone. I didn't think it was fair statement without knowing the context.

 

[IG_in_AZ]

Yea but dealers are also service centers. So we still need them.

No, we don't. They have said that Ineos will likely use independent Bosch certified shops for service. I already have a relationship with a local BMW independent who is just that. I also drive past at least 2 other Bosch centers to get to him, so they're literally everywhere. much better, IMHO, than dealing with a brand dealer's hoops and labor rate.

 

[Norb-TX]

Is that for the US? Using Bosch certified shops?

 

[IG_in_AZ]

Since our name was thrown out here, I thought I'd add some color. We did have a Braptor in stock for $30k over sticker (it sold last week). We purchased it new from a Ford dealer for $20k over sticker (it was one of the first one's out). The dealer legally has to title every new car sold, which means we also paid TT&L, and thus makes the vehicle used regardless of the low mileage. We don't like paying over sticker for vehicles any more than anyone else does, but for the last 3 years that's been the reality of the market. As an independent (non-franchised) dealer and leasing company, if we said we would not pay over sticker, we could not have handled Land Cruisers, Escalades, Denalis, Range Rovers, Rover Sports, Defenders, Tahoes/Suburbans (Z71, Premier, HC trims), Broncos, G wagons, F250s, even work trucks/vans, etc. for our clients. Many of these still bring over sticker if not on an order. By the same token, I can't count the number of trades we've taken in the last few years that have been over what our client paid for the car and/or over MSRP.

As far as the Ineos Grenadier, we have applied to be a dealership. We are a long, long way from being awarded the franchise, but we're excited about the product (whether we get the store or not). We would not sell a new Grenadier over MSRP, in accordance with their guidelines. True, it's not a legal requirement, but it's how we would operate and I hope/expect other Ineos dealers to do so as well. More importantly, we have never and will never include "dealer adds", those surprise additions to the price you don't know about until closing. Additionally, we will continue to shop trades around to ensure our clients get top value, including Carmax bids. Dealer have at least as much profit on dealer adds and lowball trade bids recently as they have on market adjustments.

I hope that clarifies. We are attracted to the Grenadier in part because of the way they are doing business. It fits well with our business model and the approach to selling cars that we've had for over 20 years.
Lewis Brazelton

Thank you for the clarification and insight. And, welcome to the forum!

 

[IG_in_AZ]

Is that for the US? Using Bosch certified shops?

Nothing is 100% but I've seen that they were considering that (maybe in early literature?) and I think I saw it in a video. I honestly can't recall, but I know I've seen it a few times. Yes, for the US market.

ETA: https://techcoffeehouse.com/2021/12...ng-and-servicing-the-grenadier-4x4-worldwide/

I found a few articles mentioning partnering with Bosch, globally. Things may have changed, but it was out there.

 

[DaveB]

Worth saying, it could have been a much bigger hit in the US already had they adopted the consumer direct model. Even if they didn’t sell in all fifty states, not having to go through a scummy dealer to buy a car would have attracted an overwhelming response from Americans. This was a big missed opportunity.

I think you will find they didn't want to launch in the US at the same time as the rest of the world or they would have been in even more of a mess as far as deliveries go