INEOS will NOT protect order holders in the US from dealer markups

[Texas Grenadier]

I think we are all jumping the gun here. I get it....We are excited. We are a bit nervous. We have big expectations. None of us have a clue on how and when these are going to land for reservation holders in the US. I've been to 2 events over the last 6 months, the latest was a test drive in the DFW market. What we do know is they will be opening the order banks 2nd Quarter this year and hopefully delivering late 4th Quarter 2023 into early 2024 as 2024 model years.

I appreciate the posts above, but i think we are all a little trigger happy and on edge for this amazing beast!!!

We can speculate all we want, but bottom line....we won't know until we know!

 

[Sulley]

I think we are all jumping the gun here. I get it....We are excited. We are a bit nervous. We have big expectations. None of us have a clue on how and when these are going to land for reservation holders in the US. I've been to 2 events over the last 6 months, the latest was a test drive in the DFW market. What we do know is they will be opening the order banks 2nd Quarter this year and hopefully delivering late 4th Quarter 2023 into early 2024 as 2024 model years.

I appreciate the posts above, but i think we are all a little trigger happy and on edge for this amazing beast!!!

We can speculate all we want, but bottom line....we won't know until we know!

I appreciate your enthusiasm, but I think we all do know, because this has played out over and over again across every franchised manufacturer. Tesla is the only one who's had the courage to pursue a better business model. If they don't have any developed policy on this ahead of time, dealers will be quick to mark up without consequence and it will only hurt the consumer.

 

[Texas Grenadier]

Not going to disagree with ya......But no need to panic get everyone's panties in a wad yet. It would suck if they are marked up.

 

[DaveB]

I can give you an example from Ford, who has started cutting back allocations from dealers that are price gouging.
INEOS could also allow customers to move their orders, if a dealer attempts to mark up their purchase.
They could also have rules around customer-named orders and dealer-orders, and impose tighter control over named orders.
They could have a "preferred dealer" certification for dealers who commit to higher standards.

There's a lot they could do that would satisfy me. These are just a few examples. Throwing your hands up and saying, "we can't do anything" doesn't interest me. I'm interested to hear if and when they reply. I'm guessing they won't because they probably haven't developed policy about any of this yet. Until they do, I don't need another headache with dealers.

I'm not sure how I was wrong. The email said what the customer service rep said was technically right. Good faith is great wishful thinking. I am not convinced the executives at INEOS know just how disgustingly greedy and dishonest US dealers are.

In Australia that would come under a law called restraint of trade.
Apple did that at the start to stop their resellers from discounting Apple products
They copped a huge fine

 

[Sulley]

In Australia that would come under a law called restraint of trade.
Apple did that at the start to stop their resellers from discounting Apple products
They copped a huge fine

On the flip side, our FTC here used to go after price gouging. It's been a long time. Maybe 20+ years.

 

[cuconlin]

US dealer markups do such a disservice to the brand that I'm shocked INEOS isn't more proactive about this terrible practice. It really tarnishes a brand reputation. I'm sure my US delivery is 12+ months away but if dealer markups start happening on INEOS cars in the US, I will go elsewhere with my $$$ even though I haven't been so excited about a new product launch ever.

 

[klarie]

I think that would open a can of worms not worth dealing with. If it's like buying a grey market camera, it'd be a nightmare with everything - including warranty claims.

I thought so. - The reason I asked if it is possible at all. - Some countries do NOT permit this kind of import. My cousin she is living in Bergen Norway was not permitted to bring her car from Germany to Norway and register it there. - Instead sell it in Germany and purchase a new one in N. It is the governmental / regulatory process I was asking about - not the business procedure. Inside EU you can purchase a car wherever you want. There are some thingies to obey on registration - in particular in DK and warranty is inside EU all the same. If NON EU - like importing a Dodge Challenger or Charger.. e.g a former Pursuit vehicle or a hellcat is possible - just to adjust some lighting and stuff, EU taxes and tech inspection and a single registration. One of the guys who I see once a year on regional competition shooting has a Charger in "Blue Bloods" style light blue metallic but a hellcat engine. (no fold fold down police lights and siren or course )
But quite some roar .. attracting petrol heads here and a rare piece. There are some specialists servicing these.. Was also "grey" imported.

 

[Lemon35]

I think something over looked thus far in the thread is the "second deposit" when converting a reservation to an order. I believe this to be approximately $4500 USD judging by other markets that are further ahead in the delivery schedule.

Going into contract and placing the additional deposit down, you should absolutely know your future final sales price. It's just bad business to throw more money and hope, specification and price are the whole point of a contract. Any dealership that 'would let me know the price later' can pound sand.

(Any recent bronco owners please feel free to correct me) I don't believe there were any contracts following a reservation with Ford. So once your spec'd & "reserved" Bronco showed up to a dealership, that dealership had tremendous leverage over the buyer and often an incentive to make them walk away so the vehicle could go into a frenzy of high bidders. No Grenadier should be shipping without a contract in early months (be it franchise for US, or IA direct for other markets) unless the dealer is investing in inventory for open sale.

Frustration in this thread is understandable and warranted, I'm right there with everyone; been following the project for years and a day 1 reservation holder.

 

[BD1]

I think something over looked thus far in the thread is the "second deposit" when converting a reservation to an order. I believe this to be approximately $4500 USD judging by other markets that are further ahead in the delivery schedule.

Going into contract and placing the additional deposit down, you should absolutely know your future final sales price. It's just bad business to throw more money and hope, specification and price are the whole point of a contract. Any dealership that 'would let me know the price later' can pound sand.

(Any recent bronco owners please feel free to correct me) I don't believe there were any contracts following a reservation with Ford. So once your spec'd & "reserved" Bronco showed up to a dealership, that dealership had tremendous leverage over the buyer and often an incentive to make them walk away so the vehicle could go into a frenzy of high bidders. No Grenadier should be shipping without a contract in early months (be it franchise for US, or IA direct for other markets) unless the dealer is investing in inventory for open sale.

Frustration in this thread is understandable and warranted, I'm right there with everyone; been following the project for years and a day 1 reservation holder.

No re: Bronco. There was a contract from the dealer with the price and specs when you converted to an order from a reservation. A few dealers played games with people at this point because some people did not get something in writing at this point from the dealer (because a few dealers tried to take advantage of people). I had a good Ford dealer and had no problems. It was all above board.

 

[Norville]

I think something over looked thus far in the thread is the "second deposit" when converting a reservation to an order. I believe this to be approximately $4500 USD judging by other markets that are further ahead in the delivery schedule.

Going into contract and placing the additional deposit down, you should absolutely know your future final sales price. It's just bad business to throw more money and hope, specification and price are the whole point of a contract. Any dealership that 'would let me know the price later' can pound sand.

(Any recent bronco owners please feel free to correct me) I don't believe there were any contracts following a reservation with Ford. So once your spec'd & "reserved" Bronco showed up to a dealership, that dealership had tremendous leverage over the buyer and often an incentive to make them walk away so the vehicle could go into a frenzy of high bidders. No Grenadier should be shipping without a contract in early months (be it franchise for US, or IA direct for other markets) unless the dealer is investing in inventory for open sale.

Frustration in this thread is understandable and warranted, I'm right there with everyone; been following the project for years and a day 1 reservation holder.

I was one of many who had a pending reservation below MSRP. There are a few reputable dealers. That said, it was known that orders that were converted that did not end up in the hands of the purchaser we're supposedly punished by Ford with future allocations etc. There were incentives in place to not make it easy to include an ADM. Of course it still happened, but I would be curious if Ford helped the customer in those situations.

In the end, I did not convert my reservation to an order for several reasons, but most notably Ford's pricing strategy for lower option vehicles.


I may be naively optimistic that these dealers will do right by IA. Otherwise, I will not be purchasing the vehicle.

 

[emax]

If the customers can stand it and go on strike for six months so that no grenadier can be sold in the States, that would be the much-cited power of the market.

Alas, it usually fails because of a few traitors who don't care.

 

[Krabby]

I was one of many who had a pending reservation below MSRP. There are a few reputable dealers. That said, it was known that orders that were converted that did not end up in the hands of the purchaser we're supposedly punished by Ford with future allocations etc. There were incentives in place to not make it easy to include an ADM. Of course it still happened, but I would be curious if Ford helped the customer in those situations.

In the end, I did not convert my reservation to an order for several reasons, but most notably Ford's pricing strategy for lower option vehicles.


I may be naively optimistic that these dealers will do right by IA. Otherwise, I will not be purchasing the vehicle.

Local Ford dealer has (maybe had, not sure if it’s still there) a $30,000 adjustment on a Braptor.

 

[Lemon35]

No re: Bronco. There was a contract from the dealer with the price and specs when you converted to an order from a reservation. A few dealers played games with people at this point because some people did not get something in writing at this point from the dealer (because a few dealers tried to take advantage of people). I had a good Ford dealer and had no problems. It was all above board.

Thanks for the reply. What was the disconnect with customers not receiving their vehicles then? Were contracts delayed close to delivery or were the prices included not matching what customers were expecting? I heard quiet a bit of drama out of those Bronco circles due to disappointment regarding markups, I'm just curious when that sticker shock was occurring relative to how soon customers were supposed to take delivery.

I drive an older Jeep and avoided the whole fiasco.

 

[DaveB]

US dealer markups do such a disservice to the brand that I'm shocked INEOS isn't more proactive about this terrible practice. It really tarnishes a brand reputation. I'm sure my US delivery is 12+ months away but if dealer markups start happening on INEOS cars in the US, I will go elsewhere with my $$$ even though I haven't been so excited about a new product launch ever.

It isn't the car company at fault it is the stupid laws and the thieving dealers

 

[Norville]

Local Ford dealer has (maybe had, not sure if it’s still there) a $30,000 adjustment on a Braptor.

What's interesting is if you go on Instagram for the Houston dealer Brazelton, they were (supposedly) applying to be a dealer for the IG. I went on their website a week or two ago and saw they had a "used" (I say that as it had 15 miles on it) Braptor for like $30k ADM as well (it's no longer shown as being in inventory). I asked on Insta if they'd try to pull that on the IG and they just said "Grenadier will have fixed pricing on their vehicles" - not really answering the overall question how they would treat potential customers. Of course, they're complicit based on what I saw for that one vehicle and would try if they could (e.g. order one for themselves and sell it as used). I'm not saying they'd do that on this vehicle, but the proof for that dealer is in the pudding. I question how they call 15 miles "used".

 

[DaveB]

I think something over looked thus far in the thread is the "second deposit" when converting a reservation to an order. I believe this to be approximately $4500 USD judging by other markets that are further ahead in the delivery schedule.

Going into contract and placing the additional deposit down, you should absolutely know your future final sales price. It's just bad business to throw more money and hope, specification and price are the whole point of a contract. Any dealership that 'would let me know the price later' can pound sand.

(Any recent bronco owners please feel free to correct me) I don't believe there were any contracts following a reservation with Ford. So once your spec'd & "reserved" Bronco showed up to a dealership, that dealership had tremendous leverage over the buyer and often an incentive to make them walk away so the vehicle could go into a frenzy of high bidders. No Grenadier should be shipping without a contract in early months (be it franchise for US, or IA direct for other markets) unless the dealer is investing in inventory for open sale.

Frustration in this thread is understandable and warranted, I'm right there with everyone; been following the project for years and a day 1 reservation holder.

I had my price fixed when I converted to an order, AUD$5,000 in total, then when Ineos had a price increase they held my price at the pre price increase level.

 

[DDG]

I personally pledge that I will NOT pay over MSRP for any vehicle. Never have and never will. That’s the only thing I (we) can control in the US.

 

[BD1]

Thanks for the reply. What was the disconnect with customers not receiving their vehicles then? Were contracts delayed close to delivery or were the prices included not matching what customers were expecting? I heard quiet a bit of drama out of those Bronco circles due to disappointment regarding markups, I'm just curious when that sticker shock was occurring relative to how soon customers were supposed to take delivery.

I drive an older Jeep and avoided the whole fiasco.

The Bronco was delayed almost 2 years from original dates. Then when built they had hard top issues so they sat in a dirt field 'dirt mountain' for another 3 to 6 months before the were delivered (other than a few that got delivered before a hold was put on deliveries).

Ford actually gave us discounts/credits back (Ford dollars) that could be applied to the purchase. I got about $1400. And they honored the original price for original orders even if they were not built in year 1 of production. At some point, I don't recall, prices went up some.

A couple of dealers added ADMs to early orders but most of those got reversed when made public with social media pressure. As I mentioned above, a lot of the large ADMs came on vehicles when someone did not accept delivery. Then the dealer could 'rightly' charge an ADM.

In the 2nd year of production, Ford changed their dealer allocation rules so the larger dealers got more and allowed more 'games' to be played with extra Broncos. But generally order holders were protected except with a handful of slimy dealers.

Thru the entire process Ford communication was worse than what I have seen so far from Ineos.

 

[DaveB]

I personally pledge that I will NOT pay over MSRP for any vehicle. Never have and never will. That’s the only thing I (we) can control in the US.

I thought the US was the land of the free??

 

[James]

I appreciate your enthusiasm, but I think we all do know, because this has played out over and over again across every franchised manufacturer. Tesla is the only one who's had the courage to pursue a better business model. If they don't have any developed policy on this ahead of time, dealers will be quick to mark up without consequence and it will only hurt the consumer.

Sulley,
my understanding is that ineos REALLY wanted to go direct, but the problems were insurmountable. Ineos is not known for being unable to trailblaze, I think you can credit them with genuinely trying everything.
no-one seems to have pointed out that tesla/musk/spacex has absolutely enormous political clout, because of US manufaturing and employment in new and high tech industries. One of the highest political priorities at every level. Ineos stated a while back that they were unable to use the tesla precedent; it had been specifically denied to them.
bear in mind that, although niche, the political clout of ford, gm etc is also incredible, deep and wide.
they want a competitor circumventing their own cost structures like a hole in the head. They are trapped with the current, apparently broken, model. Because they are not a start up, they cant easily detach fro their existing channel.

i do feel for US buyers, sometimes the unfettered profit motive that runs strong in your economy works strongly against consumers, other times not. Like 4x4 design, everything is a compromise, there’s no ‘pure’ or ‘absolute’ versions of most things.…

can only really fix this