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Ineos forced to shut down production on supplier issue

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Media starting to break that production of the IG is going to be paused until 2025 due to financial troubles at one of its suppliers.

The UK dealers were just told and mine told me today but I didn't post anything until I saw it starting to appear in the media. I cant see behind the paywall but I wonder if this is recaro?
 

Dual Grenny Guy

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I think it's just because he's a bit of a 🛎️🔚. Anattention-seeker. A narcissist. Look at his profile pic. His scarf. Some stuff he gets right. Some not. That'll happen when you share ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING. He doesn't like the price. But he wants it to weigh less. Sure.
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Dual Grenny Guy

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Everyone needs to chill.
I promise I am chill as can be. Can’t answer for everyone else, but I have been posting a lot on this thread lately so wanted you/all to know if anyone reads my post and thinks I am angry or arguing with another member, I can assure you I am not. I may disagree with what someone says and post a rebuttal, but I’m usually done after that unless someone quotes me or ask a question of me after that. I don’t take ANYTHING on an anonymous forum personal. None of us, well guess I can’t really say that as I believe some of you know each other personally and meet up, but most of us don’t know each other. Nothing anyone says on here will affect my daily life. At the same time, this damn forum has got me hooked like a fricking crack fiend!! I just can’t stay away. I love reading about new products on the Grenadier, seeing pics from across the world on what people are doing with their Grenadier, etc etc…….Mr. Stu_Barnes I thank and despise you at the same time cause you have created something I have come to really enjoy but it’s starting to take up all my free time!! Heck, I am on here more than I am binging a new tv series or reading or whatever things a retired old man does!!🤷‍♂️🤦‍♂️😉🙃😎
 

holdmybeer

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Wow, I can't believe the negativity toward @AWo 's long posts (diarrhea? really?) or his personal attire ... c'mon, that's the stuff of teenagers.

The dude is an early insider to this whole Grenadier project and he chooses to spend time sharing extra long stories with facts and opinions with our little community. Damn, keep it coming. Bloody fantastic IMO.
 

bemax

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In general yes. You'll find the sales numbers from some key markets here, except Australia

They never reached the numbers requested from suppliers, not in 2023, not in 2024. 2023 not even 50% were reached, 2024 we'll see around 10.00 to 15.000 units worldwide. Come on, be serious, if the best running market the US (statement of Lynn Calder) saw a sale of 4956 units up to September, my assumption is feasable.On the other hand there are many expensive problems and in the beginning expensive measurements to mitigate them.

In short words....sold too less cars while asked for too much parts and beside other costs around 1.500 employees to feed (Recaro Automotive has around 250).

Saying Ineos saw the writings at the wall for Recaro and stops tĥeir own production, loosing a key part, while starting in an absolutely key market, (China) that is not feasable. If Ineos Automotive is such a clever, powerful and potent company money-wise, as often claimed here, they would have sat together with Recaro and talk together how to get that solved. Simply to keep things running and not to harm their cash flow and production. You do not just jump off and break your own leg. In the meanwhile they could have started looking for other seat supplier.

As I wrote here already about the history of Recaro they had not one customer, except Ineos, that fits their whole range with their seats. They had financial trouble the last two years (known to automotive people, media and visible via company reports) and their owners forced them to produce performance seats only. That kicked them our of the mass market and they more and more relied on the sale of spare parts.If VW and Audi rejected, that is bad, yes. But the volumes were low due to what I just wrote. It was clearly stated that they need an(other) Ineos. Another question arises here...if the writings were at the wall...and that was already the case years earlier, why has Ineos choosen them for such an important part? A clear management failure to go with that risk. Companys incl. Ineos do financial checks before they start with a new supplier already for less important parts and smaller volumes. What has happened here? Why was that overseen? And by looking at the car you find more cost driving wrong tactical management descisions, visible to everyone, you do not need to be an internal guy for that.

That all has nothing to do with how much you love your car and love to drive it, if it is good or bad. That is a step back driven by common sense without an emotional view on it. Because I do not own one but was involved in that project since May 2016 for about 4 or 5 years, I can have this kind of unemotional view.

Owning and driving a Grenadier does make you a car specialist, but you do not need that to know Ineos.

AWo
I totally agree to most of your points. But maybe Ineos sat together with Recaro but couldn’t find a solution anyway.
I am not deep enough in the automobile industry to know what background checks would have been normal for the this industry and whether Ineos did them all.
And if it is the way you point out I am neither the one who knows whether other car manufacturers don’t make this kind of mistakes at all.
You might be right with most of your critics but anyhow the management of Ineos now has to deal with the actual issues and can’t just change decisions from the past.
So what could these solution now be.
If they sat together with Recaro and didn’t find a solution, what could have been the deal breaker? Is it the quantity? Is it the lack of long term security for the purchase of seats for the next time (years)?
Maybe even the idea of buying the company wouldn’t work because it is not self-sustaining without orders from other manufacturers.
Maybe there’s a timetable within the „insolvency law/rules“ that keeps Ineos holding back at the moment.
Those information to me would be more interesting than the failure Ineos probably made in the past.
 
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Well, production stopped and my Dealer has all vehicles now at MSRP. Seems like there is already an uptick of sorts and, it does not have to be a hyper low production car in order to have price hike due to a stop in production.
I thought there was a recent post that was discussing discounts on inventory (on hand) in the 5k plus. (In the US)

Edit: Found a post but wasn’t the one I recalled but…

 
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They are now certainly a lot cheaper in Australia, I could go and by one second hand , dealer demo 20k cheaper than 6-12 months ago
They were all up around $120 now they average 100k and some at 90
Regardless of your thoughts and opinions the next year or so will be interesting
But hey what would a duel personality bot know, funny as how some think
 

Trialmaster

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Wow, I can't believe the negativity toward @AWo 's long posts (diarrhea? really?) or his personal attire ... c'mon, that's the stuff of teenagers.

The dude is an early insider to this whole Grenadier project and he chooses to spend time sharing extra long stories with facts and opinions with our little community. Damn, keep it coming. Bloody fantastic IMO.
I am not apologising with regard to my reference to the long posts. It would appear to me that some people like to use 5 words where 1 will do and I don't have the time for it (nothing personal meant as you intimate, just a fact).
 

Dual Grenny Guy

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Wow, I can't believe the negativity toward @AWo 's long posts (diarrhea? really?) or his personal attire ... c'mon, that's the stuff of teenagers.

The dude is an early insider to this whole Grenadier project and he chooses to spend time sharing extra long stories with facts and opinions with our little community. Damn, keep it coming. Bloody fantastic IMO.
I don’t disagree at all, but be honest, aren’t you a little surprised at his negativity towards the Grenadier? Maybe I’m totally missing it……🤷‍♂️…….like I have said before everyone is entitled to their opinions and can post them here, but why be on a forum for a product if you think it has so many faults and will never own one (clearly stated in previous post he would not buy one and pick a Land Cruiser instead again his choice, but why not be on a LC forum)…ok I’m done…..maybe my logic is faulty and I’m completely wrong……😵‍💫
 

Dual Grenny Guy

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They are now certainly a lot cheaper in Australia, I could go and by one second hand , dealer demo 20k cheaper than 6-12 months ago
They were all up around $120 now they average 100k and some at 90
Regardless of your thoughts and opinions the next year or so will be interesting
But hey what would a duel personality bot know, funny as how some think
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And hey what do you know Mr. Bot, 🤪, I actually agree with your statement…”Regardless of your thoughts and opinions the next year or so will be interesting”…..

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DaveB

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I think we all need to have some whiskey and settle down. That being said my only question is in the quartermaster. I can see the logic in pausing the Grenadier lineup, but they were launching a new version. It’s meant to be a headliner out here at the LA Auto Show next month. It’s weird to pause when you are taking orders for a brand new type that needs people to feel safe ordering. I’m not fear mongering, and unlike others I believe if they go out of business this year my Grenadier is going up in value. I’m just questioning the decision.
The Quartermaster still needs to have seats???
 

255/85

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Maybe Ineos just doesn’t order enough seats because of the lower than expected production rate. If they lowered their orders and therefore don’t sign a bigger order now that could explain the situation of Recaro as well.
Recaro maybe just needs a higher volume than Ineos can provide now. Don’t you think so?

There is a ring of truth to @bemax's thoughts above but I think there's a different angle...

This article just states, that as the same time Recaro got into trouble Ineos has dropped the Fusilier. It is very likely that this meant a huge problem for Recaro, but it would also mean, Ineos is still involved in that problem. If Ineos went to Recaro, asking for a seat development for the Fusilier Recaro may have relied on it, maybe spent already money on it. If the order is rejected or doesn't come at all, it can kill you as a company.
It is also stated that no new order came in from Ineos and the next sentence pointed to the stop of the Grenadier production. So the same read as the section with the Fusilier.

Rrecaro may have indeed "relied on it" but that doesn't automatically involve Ineos in "that problem"

And even if Ineos hasn't stopped ordering seats for the Grenadier, look at the numbers of sold Ineos cars and you see, that is too less. That leaves me still with the question, why has Ineos taken the risk to take Recaro as a key supplier?

As I remember it Ineos never originally envisioned that their sales numbers would be as high as they have been. I seem to remember 3-5 years to reach full production with two work shifts only. Three shifts would be required to hit 25,000-30,000 units per year. Hmmm, why would Recaro expect an immediate ramp up to maximum production?

When two companies agree on an order volume, the supplier (especially Recaro which already had financial troubles) need to go to a bank to get credit to source their product. They have also suppliers which need to be paid. In case of Recaro maybe beforehand as the suppliers of Recaro almost for sure knew Recaros problems.If then, less units than expected or forecasted are taken, you're in trouble as a supplier. It is not unlikely that Ineos asked for more that they needed (to get lower prices and because they still think everybody will buy a Grenadier). Autocar in the US stated when the deal with BMW was made that Ineos targeted 25.000 units per year.

This is an assumption about Ineos' thinking. It is just as likely that Recaro overstated the projected customer demand simply to get the needed loans and funding. It is not an uncommon practice to secure discretionary funds especially if difficulties are projected internally and on the QT. Recaro may have wooed Ineos with cheap prices simply to stay afloat and weather an impending storm. Ineos may have done no more than casually mention a long term production goal. It's difficult to say who mislead who.

That is my opinion. In addition I expect more suppliers to turn away as the production stop also means that suppliers can't sell to Ineos for month causing more problems or shifting production capabilities to other customers. They won't stop, stand still and wait for Ineos, they have to keep their own business running.

Easily a possibility but, again, not Ineos' fault.

I largely share your desire for a simpler, less refined Grenadier - one with a simpler engine and 7" round incandescent head lights, etc - but that vehicle would never have sold well in the U.S. which is supposedly Ineos' largest market. The closest thing we have here is the entry-level Jeep Wrangler and they are simply not selling well. Parent company Stellantis is projecting an 11 billion dollar loss this year. Ineos' issues pale by comparison.

...Then, third year, Ineos wasn't there at all and didn't spend demonstration cars for their partners on the exhibition. They used their private owned cars and let people smeared with sunscreen crouch through their private vehicles...

Ignoring Ineos' oversight or possibly cavalier attitude towards an exhibition, the image of oily attendees squeezing through the cabins of various Grenadiers cracked me up. Probably the funniest thing I've read by you. (y)🤣
 

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This article just states, that as the same time Recaro got into trouble Ineos has dropped the Fusilier. It is very likely that this meant a huge problem for Recaro, but it would also mean, Ineos is still involved in that problem. If Ineos went to Recaro, asking for a seat development for the Fusilier Recaro may have relied on it, maybe spent already money on it. If the order is rejected or doesn't come at all, it can kill you as a company.
It is also stated that no new order came in from Ineos and the next sentence pointed to the stop of the Grenadier production. So the same read as the section with the Fusilier.
And even if Ineos hasn't stopped ordering seats for the Grenadier, look at the numbers of sold Ineos cars and you see, that is too less. That leaves me still with the question, why has Ineos taken the risk to take Recaro as a key supplier?

When two companies agree on an order volume, the supplier (especially Recaro which already had financial troubles) need to go to a bank to get credit to source their product. They have also suppliers which need to be paid. In case of Recaro maybe beforehand as the suppliers of Recaro almost for sure knew Recaros problems. If then, less units than expected or forecasted are taken, you're in trouble as a supplier. It is not unlikely that Ineos asked for more that they needed (to get lower prices and because they still think everybody will buy a Grenadier). Autocar in the US stated when the deal with BMW was made that Ineos targeted 25.000 units per year. BMW themself state that Ineos will take "a high 5-digit number of units (https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/deut...rung-von-ineos-automotive-limited?language=de) in their press release from 03-18-2019.
That means all suppliers need to be able to deliver that number. For Recaro this means 75.000 units (without spares) per year. Ineos is two years in action now and hasn't reached 20.000 units (as Lynn Calder has stated) at all. Do you really think, that has no effect on suppliers? Staying behind the numbers does mean a problem. First of all for Ineos. They are smart? Then they did a calculation of how many units they need to sell to keep all things fed and payed. You may stay behind, fine, there will be some buffer calculated in. But missing the target around 50% over two years is too much. Suppliers told me, in general, that they can easy cope with 10 to 15% variation of the volume as a normal consequence and ever changing demands. But more makes problems. Often parts are sourced and produced in batches. let's say a customer requests 10,000 mirrors. The machines are prepared, tools are changed (an expensive thing) and then 10,000 mirrors are produced. After that they change the tools again and serve the next customer. If Ineos restarts their production, these suppliers first must find a slot to start producing again. Was that agreed with all suppliers? And the suppliers of the suppliers? Is there a schedule? Will the parts the example mirror company needs for Grenadier mirrors be ready on time? Such a stop and start leads to confusion in the supply chain. And mirrors might be an easy product...but what about ECU's? The parts ECU's are build of are often assembled in parts groups which only together stay within the specifications. That is a highly orchestrated thing and you need to have all electronic parts which fit together (to meet the tolerances) for a ECU at hand in the right moment. You do not easily stop that flow of supplies.

That is my opinion. In addition I expect more suppliers to turn away as the production stop also means that suppliers can't sell to Ineos for month causing more problems or shifting production capabilities to other customers. They won't stop, stand still and wait for Ineos, they have to keep their own business running.

If you're a supplier with some cash behind, fine, you can cope with that. But due to Corona and the overall economic situation more and more suppliers do not have that much cash left. Recaro is not the first victim of that. Wrong strategic decisions at Recaro (we only build perfomance seats) is one part of that, a customer not fullfilling the expected numbers is the other part.

AWo
How much of this is just Recaro trying to position for the best bankruptcy settlement - either with a 3rd party rescue or maximizing whatever payment they can extract from Ineos for the design and production rights? Recaro was backed up against the wall - Ineos is TOTALLY insufficient to keep them going. They would never have kept them going - not at 25,000 units, not at 50,000 units. They (Recaro) will say it’s more about Ineos because they don’t want to say they had a totally upside down business that could only be salvaged with a miracle - kiss whatever buyout goodbye if that’s the perception. For a ‘27/8 launch for the Fusilier, Recaro probably was only in 3 R&D guys deep, and Ineos may have even put them on engineering retainers for all we know. I doubt Recaro was out any serious amount on that. That’s not the source of their financial woes. And for materials for car seats? We’re not talking large quantity pre-purchase of precious metals! Recaro probably got their materials pretty close to their production run rate - doubt they were left with massive exposure on missed volume expectations for the Grenadier. And I bet Recaro didn’t do anything like building 75,000 and having that in finished goods inventory waiting for Ineos to order. No, it sounds to me exactly what every single other company does when they go through bankruptcy- try to reassure everyone fundamentals were solid but they are a victim of circumstance, so someone else invests and is left holding the bag. They lost too many customers, painted themselves into a market niche corner, and had a bloated cost structure proportional to revenues.

If there’s no news from Ineos about plan B in 4 months, then I’ll start to wonder whether I’m stuck with an expensive hobby truck. In the meantime, I’m going fishing. In my Grenadier.
 

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As they say in the classics it’s the Golden Rule: he who has the gold makes the rules. The Grenadier may be a rich man’s folly but lucky for me JR seems to have similar tastes when it comes to niche off-road vehicles. I love the quirky and non-economic choices made when designing this thing, it suits my non conformist contrarian view of the world. I am sure they will sort out the seat issue with or without Recaro branding, but if they don’t and it all goes tits up then I will have a genuine limited edition vehicle that still makes me smile every time I use it.
 

DaveB

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How much of this is just Recaro trying to position for the best bankruptcy settlement - either with a 3rd party rescue or maximizing whatever payment they can extract from Ineos for the design and production rights? Recaro was backed up against the wall - Ineos is TOTALLY insufficient to keep them going. They would never have kept them going - not at 25,000 units, not at 50,000 units. They (Recaro) will say it’s more about Ineos because they don’t want to say they had a totally upside down business that could only be salvaged with a miracle - kiss whatever buyout goodbye if that’s the perception. For a ‘27/8 launch for the Fusilier, Recaro probably was only in 3 R&D guys deep, and Ineos may have even put them on engineering retainers for all we know. I doubt Recaro was out any serious amount on that. That’s not the source of their financial woes. And for materials for car seats? We’re not talking large quantity pre-purchase of precious metals! Recaro probably got their materials pretty close to their production run rate - doubt they were left with massive exposure on missed volume expectations for the Grenadier. And I bet Recaro didn’t do anything like building 75,000 and having that in finished goods inventory waiting for Ineos to order. No, it sounds to me exactly what every single other company does when they go through bankruptcy- try to reassure everyone fundamentals were solid but they are a victim of circumstance, so someone else invests and is left holding the bag. They lost too many customers, painted themselves into a market niche corner, and had a bloated cost structure proportional to revenues.

If there’s no news from Ineos about plan B in 4 months, then I’ll start to wonder whether I’m stuck with an expensive hobby truck. In the meantime, I’m going fishing. In my Grenadier.
Unless Recaro management were totally inept, not usually the case with German companies, they would have "just in time" deliveries of components from their suppliers and potentially even back to back contracts linking Ineos purchase quantities with Recaro purchase quantities.
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