Ineos forced to shut down production on supplier issue

Media starting to break that production of the IG is going to be paused until 2025 due to financial troubles at one of its suppliers.

The UK dealers were just told and mine told me today but I didn't post anything until I saw it starting to appear in the media. I cant see behind the paywall but I wonder if this is recaro?

 

[Znarfgh]

Quoted from the press release:

"The company plans to maintain full production during the insolvency proceedings to continue fulfilling all existing orders and new customer inquiries."

 

[AWo]

Maybe Ineos just doesn’t order enough seats because of the lower than expected production rate. If they lowered their orders and therefore don’t sign a bigger order now that could explain the situation of Recaro as well.
Recaro maybe just needs a higher volume than Ineos can provide now. Don’t you think so?

In general yes. You'll find the sales numbers from some key markets here, except Australia

They never reached the numbers requested from suppliers, not in 2023, not in 2024. 2023 not even 50% were reached, 2024 we'll see around 10.00 to 15.000 units worldwide. Come on, be serious, if the best running market the US (statement of Lynn Calder) saw a sale of 4956 units up to September, my assumption is feasable.On the other hand there are many expensive problems and in the beginning expensive measurements to mitigate them.

In short words....sold too less cars while asked for too much parts and beside other costs around 1.500 employees to feed (Recaro Automotive has around 250).

Saying Ineos saw the writings at the wall for Recaro and stops tĥeir own production, loosing a key part, while starting in an absolutely key market, (China) that is not feasable. If Ineos Automotive is such a clever, powerful and potent company money-wise, as often claimed here, they would have sat together with Recaro and talk together how to get that solved. Simply to keep things running and not to harm their cash flow and production. You do not just jump off and break your own leg. In the meanwhile they could have started looking for other seat supplier.

As I wrote here already about the history of Recaro they had not one customer, except Ineos, that fits their whole range with their seats. They had financial trouble the last two years (known to automotive people, media and visible via company reports) and their owners forced them to produce performance seats only. That kicked them our of the mass market and they more and more relied on the sale of spare parts.If VW and Audi rejected, that is bad, yes. But the volumes were low due to what I just wrote. It was clearly stated that they need an(other) Ineos. Another question arises here...if the writings were at the wall...and that was already the case years earlier, why has Ineos choosen them for such an important part? A clear management failure to go with that risk. Companys incl. Ineos do financial checks before they start with a new supplier already for less important parts and smaller volumes. What has happened here? Why was that overseen? And by looking at the car you find more cost driving wrong tactical management descisions, visible to everyone, you do not need to be an internal guy for that.

That all has nothing to do with how much you love your car and love to drive it, if it is good or bad. That is a step back driven by common sense without an emotional view on it. Because I do not own one but was involved in that project since May 2016 for about 4 or 5 years, I can have this kind of unemotional view.

Owning and driving a Grenadier does make you a car specialist, but you do not need that to know Ineos.

AWo

 

[Dual Grenny Guy]

In general yes. You'll find the sales numbers from some key markets here, except Australia

They never reached the numbers requested from suppliers, not in 2023, not in 2024. 2023 not even 50% were reached, 2024 we'll see around 10.00 to 15.000 units worldwide. Come on, be serious, if the best running market the US (statement of Lynn Calder) saw a sale of 4956 units up to September, my assumption is feasable.On the other hand there are many expensive problems and in the beginning expensive measurements to mitigate them.

In short words....sold too less cars while asked for too much parts and beside other costs around 1.500 employees to feed (Recaro Automotive has around 250).

Saying Ineos saw the writings at the wall for Recaro and stops tĥeir own production, loosing a key part, while starting in an absolutely key market, (China) that is not feasable. If Ineos Automotive is such a clever, powerful and potent company money-wise, as often claimed here, they would have sat together with Recaro and talk together how to get that solved. Simply to keep things running and not to harm their cash flow and production. You do not just jump off and break your own leg. In the meanwhile they could have started looking for other seat supplier.

As I wrote here already about the history of Recaro they had not one customer, except Ineos, that fits their whole range with their seats. They had financial trouble the last two years (known to automotive people, media and visible via company reports) and their owners forced them to produce performance seats only. That kicked them our of the mass market and they more and more relied on the sale of spare parts.If VW and Audi rejected, that is bad, yes. But the volumes were low due to what I just wrote. It was clearly stated that they need an(other) Ineos. Another question arises here...if the writings were at the wall...and that was already the case years earlier, why has Ineos choosen them for such an important part? A clear management failure to go with that risk. Companys incl. Ineos do financial checks before they start with a new supplier already for less important parts and smaller volumes. What has happened here? Why was that overseen? And by looking at the car you find more cost driving wrong tactical management descisions, visible to everyone, you do not need to be an internal guy for that.

That all has nothing to do with how much you love your car and love to drive it, if it is good or bad. That is a step back driven by common sense without an emotional view on it. Because I do not own one but was involved in that project since May 2016 for about 4 or 5 years, I can have this kind of unemotional view.

Owning and driving a Grenadier does make you a car specialist, but you do not need that to know Ineos.

AWo

You said “Because I do not own one but was involved in that project since May 2016 for about 4 or 5 years, I can have this kind of unemotional view.”…...so I now have to ask you, what was your involvement? Were you an employee of Ineos, part of the design or testing, etc? You brought it up & I would like to know your insight into all of this, so please tell. Btw, to me at least, some of your post do sound a little emotional. Maybe I am reading more into it?

I promise I am not trying to be argumentative or judgmental, but I do have the right to not agree with you on some things. You stated “Owning and driving a Grenadier does make you a car specialist,”, to which I do 100% agree. I have owned and worked on MANY cars in my lifetime (in my younger years swapping out engines from one car to another & if anyone has ever done that once knows the work involved & I have done it several times) and while I may have never been in the car industry per se (paid mechanic, designer, salesman, etc etc), I think my experience as a owner/driver and home repairs makes me plenty enough a car “specialist”. I might not sit on any board at Ford/Chevy/etc, or be a paid employee of any of the car manufacturers, but I don’t think that is the only way someone can be a “specialist”.

We don’t disagree on everything as I have posted before my thoughts on the shut down (Ineos not selling enough units and could be trying to drum up interest again by selling off all remaining inventory and creating a new demand for 2025), and it wasn’t positive towards Ineos. This coming from someone who owns TWO Grenadiers, and plans on owning a THIRD when the Quartermaster finally hits the USA to which I believe will happen in 2025. I will say this one more time. I do not know Sir. James personally, but from all I have read and heard about the man, he is a very wealthy and very smart man and most importantly he does not like to lose at anything. Thus, I do not see him letting this company close up and fail as would be a stain on his name and business acumen. None of us know the real reason behind the temp shut down and never will unless Ineos puts out a detailed statement or an employee with knowledge comes out and tells their story. You can say it’s the poor sales numbers, Recaro debacle, etc etc but really it’s all conjecture. I believe, again my opinion only, he will invest more of his billions and go at it even more in 2025. If not, I will be shown to be wrong and will eat crow. Regardless of the outcome, I will still own TWO BAD ASS vehicles that I will keep until I die. No one, no matter what they write about this vehicle, will change the joy mine bring me to own and drive them!! That is a straight up true fact!! There are enough out now to supplement parts for if the business goes under and I am sure someone will work around the computers or other issues without any factory support if that ever happens. There are many vehicles on the road today that are no longer made but get serviced and repaired. I will end on this to which I am very emotional/passionate about…..…..GRENADIER LIFER RIGHT HERE!!!!

P.S. do you know or are you connected or related to MattA or Zimm on this forum?

 

[AWo]

I'm not MattA nor Zimm and I doubt they want me to be them. I do not know them and I have no connections to them. BTW. I have no connection to the vast majority of the world population.

I tell you now that I can't reveal all, but I tell you what I revealed in a German podcast, already: Dirk Heilmann, former CEO of Ineos Automotive, contacted me end of May 2016 (at a time the decision if the Grenadier will be built or not wasn't even taken) because of my involvement in the 4x4 scene (I posted a video here, where you can see Dirk stepping out of a Defender. That was my 90ty Defender). I saw the first presentations when Ineos tried to buy the tools from Land Rover to continue the production of the Defender. I saw the study, performed by Magna Steyr for Ineos (which bought a white Defender 110 and which was given to Magna Steyr to get completely disassembled) which showed what would have been necessary to make the Land Rover Defender legal again, even in the US(!). Believe me, that wasn't much. I saw the initial specification sheet, when Ineos realized (with the help of Magna Steyr), that continuing the Defender is not a possible way. I sat down several evenings with Dirk and a German marketing company, specialised in market entries for British motor companies. We discussed the pricing, the targeted customer base, the models, how the 4x4 people think, what they like etc. etc. This company was cancelled by JR (too German) and the whole project was shifted to the UK. I flew to Magna Steyr with Dirk to discuss things. I know the first guys in the project, like the former project lead Alexander Quindt, who is retired now. BTW, many of these early people have left Ineos already. That is a public available information you can see on LinkedIn. There are more than 650 ex-Ineos Automotive employees). I was member in an international expert group, discussing things like two winches as a standard, the rails on the doors, the bumpers etc. I had one-on-one calls regarding such things. I collected a big list of third parties and suppliers for Ineos, when they were not clear what they want to do on their own (like the winch and the double battery system), what to leave to the aftermarket, what to approve as the manufacturer and what not to approve. Some of my suggestions are now partners or suppliers.
I received two Series IIa prototypes in my garage 12/2021 and Ineos technicians came to me and worked on the cars, made tests etc. The cars were foil-coated there. At that time the designated price was 54.000 Euro. I was visited by Steven Graham and we discussed the Carraro axles, the diff locks (yes, no, standard or option) the service and sales network, where I also contributed a little bit. However, not many has been left over of that. I had a very small and unimportant part in testing a specific part of the car, where I also met Ineos technicians and developers. I also now other externals which contributed to the project, like the interior and I know their stories. I know dealers and their stories. I'm not telling that I was responsible alone for this and that in that project or that it was only me discussing things with Ineos, no no, but I was a at least a (small) part of that. I was in London in the Grenadier pub when JR made the project public and I started his Land Rover Series 1 which stood in front of the door, because no one else knew how to do that.
Therefore I know exactly what the first ideas were (I loved these, I was absolutely excited!!), how things have changed on that journey (what is not good, as the Ineos communication&marketing had to follow these changes: from a very basic rugged vehicle for workers, farmers and doers to a more fancy, luxury car with a high price. You should now what you want right from the start). And I see what the the Grenadier has become. And I monitor that project as close as I can and with intent, also looking for and using information all around that universe, as I really want to know how it works out, as I loved the initial idea so much and still love it.

I think that is enough for now. Satisfied your curiosity? If not...ok..fine for me.

AWo

 

[Tazzieman]

@Dual Grenny Guy @AWo is 100% legitimate and has provided many valuable and helpful insights on this forum since its inception.
He's the man you'd want in your corner if your vehicle was in a "spot of bother" offroad.

 

[Quartermaster]

Mr. Blümle, the liquidator of Recaro, published information that a few investors are interested in Recaro. But, these are only interested in the brand. The manufacturing site in Kircheim/Teck, Germany, is pretty much lost.
I quote (translated into English) Mr. Blümle: "There is no chance to save the production without further orders from the only customer Ineos". So if Ineos stopped production because Recaro had problems....why can the Recaro production only survive with Ineos? Ineos should be keen to place orders to start again which would save the production of Recaro, wouldn't it?

Here is the link, read it yourself: https://www.automobilwoche.de/automobilzulieferer/recaro-investoren-marke-interessiert
That is an automotive business magazine you have to pay for, but maybe the one or the other uses this site.

Sorry folks, but it seems to me, as Ineos stopped ordering....

AWo

@AWo In that article it is suggested, that there is a conjunction between insolvency and Ineos stopping the order for FUSILIER seats, which should have been the big new order. That does not mean, that Ineos had stopped Grenadier orders. I don´t know, where you got that from?