Grenadier vs 2024 Land Cruiser

[MurphyMurph]

New LC supposedly gets 27mpg.

Yeah, that’s tempting. Wonder if it will actually hit that #. The Trialmaster will likely get 14-15mpg so 12-13mpg better would be a pretty good savings on top of the MUCH lower price.

 

[Norb-TX]

More hp too.

 

[MurphyMurph]

More hp too.

I drive a ‘97 LC80 so I’m used to low power. 282hp will feel like more than enough coming from my current rig.

 

[Tazzieman]

New LC supposedly gets 27mpg.

US gallons? Must specify when talking economy.

 

[Norb-TX]

Yes, US gallons. Its just an estimate at this point, not an official EPA rating.

 

[curb-optional]

The Grenadier is a niche vehicle.
it will never be a huge seller
It will sell like the H1 or the old Defender here.
Soccer moms dont want it, it doesnt have cred yet in the rap/celebrity world, its too expensive for most of the Wrangler/Bronco crowd, and the average well to do man wants a BMW.
I dont think the LC will have that much impact on Grenadier sale, but what do I know?

I agree - the family SUV can easily be the new 2024 LC or the upscale version GX Overtrail. I think Toyota is squarely targeting ND. Unfortunately for Toyota, they don't seem to understand the concept of "headroom." The 4Runner, for example, has excellent ground clearance and yet is lower in height than the LC - making the cabin height low for back seat passengers. I can understand that in a Toyota, but Lexus will hopefully offer more head room. The cabin needs to be tall, and you can't reduce ground clearance - this means a tall SUV. Having a front/back seat area that is high (tall) is more comfortable, and that's a luxury feature in a SUV, particularly if you are on a long road trip! I get why the 4Runner lacks it, but I would hope the Lexus offers more. As for Grenadier, I don't think they will have an interior that sufficiently attracts consumers away from things like Lexus or Mercedes. The point of those is to be comfortable, whereas the Grenadier is built (so it seems) to basically not break down no matter what you've just driven over or through.

 

[Idaho]

The new LC250 Starter Kit will come with your choice in stickers, such as "The Mountains are Calling," "Namaste," or "Dog is my CoPilot.". The kit will also include a paddle board/rooftop tent/fly rod rack and integrated slack line combo along side of your choice in tie-dyed yoga pants, ironic mesh trucker cap or pre-faded Hilary 2016 shirt!

Just kidding. I'm a hardcore LC guy and I'm actually happy they're bring it back to the masses with friendlier pricing. I think I'll keep mine and still go with a Grenadier over the new offering, though. At that point I may sell the 200 series, assuming I'm happy with the Ineos.

 

[Krabby]

The new LC250 Starter Kit will come with your choice in stickers, such as "The Mountains are Calling," "Namaste," or "Dog is my CoPilot.". The kit will also include a paddle board/rooftop tent/fly rod rack and integrated slack line combo along side of your choice in tie-dyed yoga pants, ironic mesh trucker cap or pre-faded Hilary 2016 shirt!

Just kidding. I'm a hardcore LC guy and I'm actually happy they're bring it back to the masses with friendlier pricing. I think I'll keep mine and still go with a Grenadier over the new offering, though. At that point I may sell the 200 series, assuming I'm happy with the Ineos.

That’s a very clean, nice looking 40. Do tell.

 

[trobex]

I can't believe they are selling the same old Toyota gear in a face lift model and I bet here in Oz the GXL will start at 85k+. I would rather drop the $100k on the LC300 GX and get a real engine at least and make towing enjoyable.

 

[Idaho]

That’s a very clean, nice looking 40. Do tell.

That's Mr. Myagi, a 1969 FJ40 with a LS 5.3L and NV trans. He's my pride and joy.

 

[emax]

In theory, this sounds sensible. In practice, I have never had a speedometer or tachometer fail (the ones with the needle). Screens in cars seem to go black far more frequently by comparison. Maybe your experience is different than mine...

There are understandable reasons why people are so dismissive of electronics today: When it breaks down, we don't understand why and are left in uncertainty.

Many of us know how a traditional speedometer works: Drive shaft, magnetic eddy current transmission, etc. Or an oil pressure gauge: pressure line, diaphragm ...

When such an instrument fails, we can understand and even see why: the pressure line or diaphragm is ruptured. Or the speedometer shaft is broken. So we can understand what the problem is, we're not left behind clueless.

Nevertheless, we usually can't fix it at all - and yet we feel still comfortable with it. This is of course because we can estimate the consequences: "Speedometer broken? So what ...".

This is not the case with complex car electronics: The display goes black, and we are left in the dark. Is it the EMU? The CAN-bus? The battery voltage? Will I get home? There are dozens of possible reasons, and a lot of them could pose a serious threat.

I think electronics are relatively reliable these days. And it unquestionably allows things to happen that would never go without it. And many of those things we don't even know about. A modern engine wouldn't work at all without all that. It's just that it's not transparent to us, unfortunately.

In addition, quality is in the hands of the manufacturers. Unlike aircraft or military equipment, components are not always of the quality they should be: costs are cut. And that's why electronic problems are one of the most common causes of failure.

I can therefore understand why the mechanics among us reject it. Nevertheless, it must be acknowledged that the dream of a fully comprehensible, mechanically controlled car is over. It is no longer possible, firstly because of legal requirements, secondly because the equipment is no longer produced in the required variety and is becoming increasingly rare, thirdly because the ever tighter tolerances for the operating parameters can no longer be guaranteed mechanically, and finally because the effort required would no longer be competitive in view of the ever cheaper to produce and easier to develop electronic circuits that come from the competitors - not to mention the wiring orgies that would be involved in dispensing with bus systems.

I don't think electronics would have to be a problem if the manufacturers set higher standards for their quality and the development cycles were not so excessively fast. And we also contribute to this ourselves: "No Bluetooth 4? Only USB 3 instead of 3.2? Why no heated steering wheel? No color screen? Audio without DSP?"

All this sounds harmless. But it contributes to error susceptibility and EMC problems. Even if my examples here refer only to the Infotainment (because everyone can comprehend that) it applies exactly the same to everything else in the car. Faster, higher, fancier.

Electronics is not bad in my opinion, it is even a blessing in principle. But too much of it produced too cheaply and put on the market too fast, those are the culprits. Not quite so hip, and applied in moderation, it would be perfect.

Paracelsus was right: "The dose makes the poison."

 

[DaveB]

There are understandable reasons why people are so dismissive of electronics today: When it breaks down, we don't understand why and are left in uncertainty.

Many of us know how a traditional speedometer works: Drive shaft, magnetic eddy current transmission, etc. Or an oil pressure gauge: pressure line, diaphragm ...

When such an instrument fails, we can understand and even see why: the pressure line or diaphragm is ruptured. Or the speedometer shaft is broken. So we can understand what the problem is, we're not left behind clueless.

Nevertheless, we usually can't fix it at all - and yet we feel still comfortable with it. This is of course because we can estimate the consequences: "Speedometer broken? So what ...".

This is not the case with complex car electronics: The display goes black, and we are left in the dark. Is it the EMU? The CAN-bus? The battery voltage? Will I get home? There are dozens of possible reasons, and a lot of them could pose a serious threat.

I think electronics are relatively reliable these days. And it unquestionably allows things to happen that would never go without it. And many of those things we don't even know about. A modern engine wouldn't work at all without all that. It's just that it's not transparent to us, unfortunately.

In addition, quality is in the hands of the manufacturers. Unlike aircraft or military equipment, components are not always of the quality they should be: costs are cut. And that's why electronic problems are one of the most common causes of failure.

I can therefore understand why the mechanics among us reject it. Nevertheless, it must be acknowledged that the dream of a fully comprehensible, mechanically controlled car is over. It is no longer possible, firstly because of legal requirements, secondly because the equipment is no longer produced in the required variety and is becoming increasingly rare, thirdly because the ever tighter tolerances for the operating parameters can no longer be guaranteed mechanically, and finally because the effort required would no longer be competitive in view of the ever cheaper to produce and easier to develop electronic circuits that come from the competitors - not to mention the wiring orgies that would be involved in dispensing with bus systems.

I don't think electronics would have to be a problem if the manufacturers set higher standards for their quality and the development cycles were not so excessively fast. And we also contribute to this ourselves: "No Bluetooth 4? Only USB 3 instead of 3.2? Why no heated steering wheel? No color screen? Audio without DSP?"

All this sounds harmless. But it contributes to error susceptibility and EMC problems. Even if my examples here refer only to the Infotainment (because everyone can comprehend that) it applies exactly the same to everything else in the car. Faster, higher, fancier.

Electronics is not bad in my opinion, it is even a blessing in principle. But too much of it produced too cheaply and put on the market too fast, those are the culprits. Not quite so hip, and applied in moderation, it would be perfect.

Paracelsus was right: "The dose makes the poison."

Back in 1987 I was working for a company in Tasmania and we used microfiche readers for pricing and discount cards to work out customers net buy price.
It was then transferred by hand to and invoice that we had to put carbon paper in to keep a copy for the accounts department to process.
The company announced they were going to introduce computer terminals, connected to a mainframe back in Sydney.
Hundreds of people around Australia quit.
Some took early retirement, others went to opposition who didn't have these damned things.
Surprisingly the company was called GEC (General Electric Company) Electrical Wholesale.

 

[stickshifter]

There are understandable reasons why people are so dismissive of electronics today: When it breaks down, we don't understand why and are left in uncertainty.

Many of us know how a traditional speedometer works: Drive shaft, magnetic eddy current transmission, etc. Or an oil pressure gauge: pressure line, diaphragm ...

When such an instrument fails, we can understand and even see why: the pressure line or diaphragm is ruptured. Or the speedometer shaft is broken. So we can understand what the problem is, we're not left behind clueless.

Nevertheless, we usually can't fix it at all - and yet we feel still comfortable with it. This is of course because we can estimate the consequences: "Speedometer broken? So what ...".

This is not the case with complex car electronics: The display goes black, and we are left in the dark. Is it the EMU? The CAN-bus? The battery voltage? Will I get home? There are dozens of possible reasons, and a lot of them could pose a serious threat.

I think electronics are relatively reliable these days. And it unquestionably allows things to happen that would never go without it. And many of those things we don't even know about. A modern engine wouldn't work at all without all that. It's just that it's not transparent to us, unfortunately.

In addition, quality is in the hands of the manufacturers. Unlike aircraft or military equipment, components are not always of the quality they should be: costs are cut. And that's why electronic problems are one of the most common causes of failure.

I can therefore understand why the mechanics among us reject it. Nevertheless, it must be acknowledged that the dream of a fully comprehensible, mechanically controlled car is over. It is no longer possible, firstly because of legal requirements, secondly because the equipment is no longer produced in the required variety and is becoming increasingly rare, thirdly because the ever tighter tolerances for the operating parameters can no longer be guaranteed mechanically, and finally because the effort required would no longer be competitive in view of the ever cheaper to produce and easier to develop electronic circuits that come from the competitors - not to mention the wiring orgies that would be involved in dispensing with bus systems.

I don't think electronics would have to be a problem if the manufacturers set higher standards for their quality and the development cycles were not so excessively fast. And we also contribute to this ourselves: "No Bluetooth 4? Only USB 3 instead of 3.2? Why no heated steering wheel? No color screen? Audio without DSP?"

All this sounds harmless. But it contributes to error susceptibility and EMC problems. Even if my examples here refer only to the Infotainment (because everyone can comprehend that) it applies exactly the same to everything else in the car. Faster, higher, fancier.

Electronics is not bad in my opinion, it is even a blessing in principle. But too much of it produced too cheaply and put on the market too fast, those are the culprits. Not quite so hip, and applied in moderation, it would be perfect.

Paracelsus was right: "The dose makes the poison."

Hi emax,

You make good points, and I understand your argument about the psychology of a mechanical failure vs an electronic one. However, I still think that there is a real difference between the reliability of a traditional instrument cluster and a single screen on which all information is located. I am not going to go digging through this forum or other car forums, but I think it is pretty clear that screens in modern cars go black - either temporarily or for longer periods of time - at a rate far higher than the failure rate of a traditional instrument cluster. Lastly, when a speedometer gets a wonky cable, and the needle either oscillates of fails to move - all the other gauges continue to function. This is not the case if a screen - on which all your info is located - goes black.

Just a few days ago, for example, there were these two posts on this Grenadier forum:

 

[Tom109]

Hi emax,

You make good points, and I understand your argument about the psychology of a mechanical failure vs an electronic one. However, I still think that there is a real difference between the reliability of a traditional instrument cluster and a single screen on which all information is located. I am not going to go digging through this forum or other car forums, but I think it is pretty clear that screens in modern cars go black - either temporarily or for longer periods of time - at a rate far higher than the failure rate of a traditional instrument cluster. Lastly, when a speedometer gets a wonky cable, and the needle either oscillates of fails to move - all the other gauges continue to function. This is not the case if a screen - on which all your info is located - goes black.

Just a few days ago, for example, there were these two posts on this Grenadier forum:

View attachment 7823980

The upside is that electronic issues are often temporary and easily cured with a reset. Resets can be simple or more involved, or self-reset like your examples above.

 

[Farglebah]

I hate newfangled nonsense. Troubadours never went blank in a power outage, not like these ridiculous electronicalistic TV things.

Seriously, though, badly executed electronics are no different to badly executed mechanicals. Advances in electronics, materials, lubricants and everything else mean cars today are really far more reliable than they ever have been. We’ve come to expect car companies to execute well.

Well executed electronics will contribute to the Grenadier being the car we hope it will be.

 

[emax]

I still think that there is a real difference between the reliability of a traditional instrument cluster and a single screen on which all information is located

I totally agree.

I ride a diesel motorcycle that only has electrics but no electronics at all. It was built in 2015 and is therefore practically new. But the manufacturer had to cease production in 2022 because the EU issued new regulations requiring all motorcycles over 125cc to have ABS.

This motorcycle has a 512cc engine but only 12hp. Ridiculous. They have destroyed a wonderful, sustainable product with a fuel consumption of only 2l/100km = 141mpg (UK). He had to give up because the electronics required are so expensive that an annual motorcycle production of 60 units would never pay off. The setup by Bosch or others alone cost around 100,000 euros before a motorcycle was ever equipped with ABS.

Interestingly, this also demonstrates the failure of a central authority for something as simple as a micro-enterprise exception ... but that's probably intentional and could also be a result of industry lobbyists. But they just call it "minor lateral damage."

There is a general point between centralized and distributed solutions. Centralized has advantages in terms of integration and interaction between all components. Installation is less hassle and requires fewer resources, cables, and other expense, less weight and less space. But if it fails, it's all gone.

And that is the advantage of a decentralized solution: functions other than the failed one continue to work for the most part. Look at politics: the centralized, “socialist” approach was never competitive because if just one link in the Central Committee chain failed, the entire system was affected.

But INEOS has somehow created a workaround: the small driver's panel with all the indicator lights is, as we have seen, independent of what is shown on the central display. If the head unit fails, at least the warnings and serious errors should be visible. The speedometer is probably dispensable in such a case.


EDIT: I have to add, that the motorcacle thing is only to document that I'm not an electronic lunatic. I in general appreciate mechanic solutions very much over electronic ones - if they are possible and make sense. But with modern regulations and engines that's hardly the case. Their sensors end up in a central unit, and it's almost impossible to bypass this concept. So there is little choice.

typo​

 

[Farglebah]

I totally agree.

I ride a diesel motorcycle that only has electrics but no electronics at all. It was built in 2015 and is therefore practically new. But the manufacturer had to cease production in 2022 because the EU issued new regulations requiring all motorcycles over 125cc to have ABS.

This motorcycle has a 512cc engine but only 12hp. Ridiculous. They have destroyed a wonderful, sustainable product with a fuel consumption of only 2l/100km = 141mpg (UK). He had to give up because the electronics required are so expensive that an annual motorcycle production of 60 units would never pay off. The setup by Bosch or others alone cost around 100,000 euros before a motorcycle was ever equipped with ABS.

Interestingly, this also demonstrates the failure of a central authority for something as simple as a micro-enterprise exception ... but that's probably intentional and could also be a result of industry lobbyists. But they just call it "minor lateral damage."

There is a general point between centralized and distributed solutions. Centralized has advantages in terms of integration and interaction between all components. Installation is less hassle and requires fewer resources, cables, and other expense, less weight and less space. But if it fails, it's all gone.

And that is the advantage of a decentralized solution: functions other than the failed one continue to work for the most part. Look at politics: the centralized, “socialist” approach was never competitive because if just one link in the Central Committee chain failed, the entire system was affected.

But INEOS has somehow created a workaround: the small driver's panel with all the indicator lights is, as we have seen, independent of what is shown on the central display. If the head unit fails, at least the warnings and serious errors should be visible. The speedometer is probably dispensable in such a case.


EDIT: I have to add, that the motorcacle thing is only to document that I'm not an electronic lunatic. I in general appreciate mechanic solutions very much over electronic ones -it they are possible and make sense. But with modern regulations and engines that's hardly the case. Their sensors end up in a central unit, and it's almost impossible to bypass this concept. So there is little choice.

I’m not quite sure I understand the detail, but I’m pretty sure I agree.

 

[Tjhappel]

I’ll be selling my ‘95 RRC.

Don’t do it!

 

[Tom109]

Don’t do it!

Yeah, I hear you. Truth is, it is just too nice - rust free, 62k original miles, all systems including the rebuilt EAS work. I love it and became intensely familiar with it (LR owners will understand this), but I cannot stomach the idea of bumps and scrapes off-road. So, I have been the caretaker and now ready to pass this beauty on.

 

[rovie]

Yeah, I hear you. Truth is, it is just too nice - rust free, 62k original miles, all systems including the rebuilt EAS work. I love it and became intensely familiar with it (LR owners will understand this), but I cannot stomach the idea of bumps and scrapes off-road. So, I have been the caretaker and now ready to pass this beauty on.

View attachment 7824306

Very nice. Keep it!
I have an 86 Hard Dash, still with vertical metal grill, but already with plastic front spoiler and additional headlights.
I also keep thinking about selling it. But here in Germany there is no market for it. But then I would be annoyed again.