Front diff failure

[Tazzieman]

I'm guessing you didn't scan the QR code...

View attachment 7876493

I'm too wary of aliens to scan anything.

 

[AWo]

Background:

In deed, breaking in differential gears is necessary. In the beginning the surfaces are not aligned to each other. Small uneven edges and peaks have remained from the mechanical treatment. That impedes heat transfer between the gears and its teeth. In addition the metal structure is not as dense at that time as after breaking in.

That's why in the beginning you should not tow, require high torque or drive at high speed. Otherwise you get local overheating and the metal structure is not as dense yet as it should be. That supports breaking out of parts. When the gears harmonize the surfaces getting smoother and their surfaces gain more contact, the structure gets more dense and the heat transfer gets better and to the required level. The oil change is needed to get rid of small metal and attrited phosphatic coating parts.

Maybe this guideline wasn't followed and the damage would have come anyway, having done an oil change or not. Of course, when you would have done the missed oil change the damage which (may have) build up would not have been detected, as no one looks at the gears (except bigger metal parts would have been found in the oil) or the oil would have been analyzed. But it gave Ineos the possibility to reject warranty.

AWo

 

[Tazzieman]

Nicely summarised. Perhaps dealers need to "read the riot act" to new buyers?
A useful reference here:

https://www.yukongear.com/blogs/the-ultimate-gear-break-in-guide-ensuring-peak-performance-and-longevity_1

 

[NQ94]

Carraro requesting early diff oil change must be the result of some diff manufacturing processes being deleted or changed similar to what happened to engine connecting rods in the last 20 years. The diffs may be like some tractor diffs where crown and pinions are no longer matched sets or lapping the crown wheel and pinion is not used any more.
There must be a reason, besides contamination Ineos changes the whole axle assembly and not just the diff which would be more cost effective. It was mentioned on a FB group the complete axle assembly is around $20k aud to change over.

 

[Zimm]

The obvious upsetting part about this, is, you cannot document your own changes as advertised, and have it count. As such, the catastrophic failure at this mileage, which really cannot happen to any diff sold by anyone, anywhere, other than with a manufacturing issue, isn't being covered if you happen to live remote, which was the whole purpose of the truck.

I try to avoid labeling people with the fanboy tag, but think about this fellas. This guy is not to blame, and the dealer and Ineos knows it. If the diff fluid wasn't changed at 12000, and this used cast gears that needed it, the absolute WORST outlier one should expect at this mileage is pre mature wear and noise. Being that changing consumables (oil, belts, hoses, etc) are set at intervals that statistically guarantee (ideally) NO failures under warranty, even THAT becomes a wild ass stretch to say its due to consumer neglect and therefore shouldn't be covered. This is a horrid outcome and everyone should be on notice. You know what happens to GM ls engines that don't have the oil changed and fail? They swap it. Ford? They require receipts, then they rebuild it. Ford f350 diffs are 30,000 recommended if working at max load. 150k if just a mall cruiser. But if the warranty is active, it's just covered period. I've had guys do stupid shit and ignore service with assigned company trucks, but I have NEVER had a warranty denial in all these years. Blaming this fella for a catastrophic Axle assembly failure at 17000 miles is utterly indefensible bullshit for a manufacturer, and portends deeper issues. He had it in at 75% of the mileage, and if it was THAT critical, he SHOULD have been told to have it done. EVERY time I've had service interval done the manager tried to up sell to the next one just in case. It's what they get paid to do.

All that, and if axle failure is a possibility at 17k without the fluid swap, why the hell did they use these in the first place?

 

[INEOSTED]

The obvious upsetting part about this, is, you cannot document your own changes as advertised, and have it count. As such, the catastrophic failure at this mileage, which really cannot happen to any diff sold by anyone, anywhere, other than with a manufacturing issue, isn't being covered if you happen to live remote, which was the whole purpose of the truck.

I try to avoid labeling people with the fanboy tag, but think about this fellas. This guy is not to blame, and the dealer and Ineos knows it. If the diff fluid wasn't changed at 12000, and this used cast gears that needed it, the absolute WORST outlier one should expect at this mileage is pre mature wear and noise. Being that changing consumables (oil, belts, hoses, etc) are set at intervals that statistically guarantee (ideally) NO failures under warranty, even THAT becomes a wild ass stretch to say its due to consumer neglect and therefore shouldn't be covered. This is a horrid outcome and everyone should be on notice. You know what happens to GM ls engines that don't have the oil changed and fail? They swap it. Ford? They require receipts, then they rebuild it. Ford f350 diffs are 30,000 recommended if working at max load. 150k if just a mall cruiser. But if the warranty is active, it's just covered period. I've had guys do stupid shit and ignore service with assigned company trucks, but I have NEVER had a warranty denial in all these years. Blaming this fella for a catastrophic Axle assembly failure at 17000 miles is utterly indefensible bullshit for a manufacturer, and portends deeper issues. He had it in at 75% of the mileage, and if it was THAT critical, he SHOULD have been told to have it done. EVERY time I've had service interval done the manager tried to up sell to the next one just in case. It's what they get paid to do.

All that, and if axle failure is a possibility at 17k without the fluid swap, why the hell did they use these in the first place?

Agree totally. This service is DEFINITELY NOT STANDARD on any vehicle I’ve ever owned. IF SO IMPORTANT, perhaps the dealer/sales should EMPHASIZE it. I totally get following the suggested service…. I TRIED to do it early. BUT I ultimately take the advice of the dealer/service department. Never a mention…. I could even understand and wouldn’t be upset if they’d own up to their lack of education/sales experience/or any other little innuendo of this new company. But to have a flat out denial of warranty is inexcusable and fortells of the potential fragility of this truck. WHAT ELSE DON’T I know? WHAT ELSE IS A WHOOPS, should have mentioned it. An ethical business would back their product and not create such discontent over 3-4000 miles of service.
I wrote an email to Sir Ratcliffe… I respect his success and want to very much respect this truck/company. But not thinking this process is something anyone else wants to go through. New companies have growing pains… I’m ok with that and we all are willing to adjust. But not with catastrophic failure on a new truck not under warranty.

 

[INEOSTED]

Background:

In deed, breaking in differential gears is necessary. In the beginning the surfaces are not aligned to each other. Small uneven edges and peaks have remained from the mechanical treatment. That impedes heat transfer between the gears and its teeth. In addition the metal structure is not as dense at that time as after breaking in.

That's why in the beginning you should not tow, require high torque or drive at high speed. Otherwise you get local overheating and the metal structure is not as dense yet as it should be. That supports breaking out of parts. When the gears harmonize the surfaces getting smoother and their surfaces gain more contact, the structure gets more dense and the heat transfer gets better and to the required level. The oil change is needed to get rid of small metal and attrited phosphatic coating parts.

Maybe this guideline wasn't followed and the damage would have come anyway, having done an oil change or not. Of course, when you would have done the missed oil change the damage which (may have) build up would not have been detected, as no one looks at the gears (except bigger metal parts would have been found in the oil) or the oil would have been analyzed. But it gave Ineos the possibility to reject warranty.

AWo

Well I guess I wish I owned tractors before… I’m guessing most people haven’t and don’t inherently know the care required. I’ve owned many trucks with locking differentials…. Not ever required. Educating the client to keep the product working might be a focus Ineos should get on…
This truck was billed as indestructible. Made for remote adventures. Supposed to be able to service yourself with worldwide support. Many people live FAR from the current dealer network. I do. All things the dealer should keep in mind when selling to someone excited to go out and use this “tank”.

If it’s not all that and rather something that needs to be “dry cleaned” it should be known.

The guys at the dealership are all cool. Taz and all the others at Mossey have been great until the shit hit the fan. Then…

If I am responsible for a 20k bill, believe me, there will be lawyers involved. I don’t want that… but

 

[AZGrenadier]

You had it into the dealer and told them you had a leak, added oil and had a hum, and they didn’t look into it? That’s BS and if it is as you say then I think it falls on the dealer if the oil change is that necessary. Is it on your receipt anywhere that you were concerned about it?

 

[Tazzieman]

I email the service dept before each service to notify any concerns and issues
And chase the email if they don't acknowledge receipt. And print a list and leave it on the driver's seat when I drop the vehicle off.
Works for me.

 

[[ Adam ]]

You had it into the dealer and told them you had a leak, added oil and had a hum, and they didn’t look into it? That’s BS and if it is as you say then I think it falls on the dealer if the oil change is that necessary. Is it on your receipt anywhere that you were concerned about it?

That's not my reading of this:

brought my Trialmaster in at 9000 to Mossey San Diego. I live far away. Told them to look over everything. Towed a trailer at 17000. WELL UNDER specs.... 5500#. The rear differential was leaking I noticed after a 750 mile drive. THE BOLTS WERE LOOSE! I tightened them and added a quart of spec gear oil.

This says to me he took it to the dealer at 9k, drove until 17000, attached a trailer, and noticed the leak and loose bolts around ~17750, when he also added a quart of gear oil.

 

[Mountain4x4]

Honestly rejecting a warranty claim like this on a diff is pretty low. Not changing some fluid in the beginning might shorted the life 200K down the road, but no way it blows at 12K. Heck I bet 1 in 1000 change the diff fluid EVER. And loose bolts are not related to no changing the oil. If you physically damage a diff, I get it. But this seems pretty ridiculous.

 

[[ Adam ]]

If I am responsible for a 20k bill, believe me, there will be lawyers involved. I don’t want that… but

When you had your 9k service done, did they reset your service reminder?

 

[Zimm]

When you had your 9k service done, did they reset your service reminder?

yea.... that would ah.... yea. No one else can do that either. No one but Ineos. Hm.

 

[INEOSTED]

When you had your 9k service done, did they reset your service reminder?

I never had a service reminder come up on the truck. Never got an email reminder as I have always got from other car/trucks. I think they are good guys that just aren’t organized in the product yet. Unfortunately, I’m the one suffering for it. Mossey dealership says they want to warranty but are getting denied. Suggested I start a ticket/complaint with Ineos… Ineos got back to me saying the dealer denied it. . No info in the last week. Now without my truck for 4 weeks with no end in sight. I just wish they’d do the right thing

 

[[ Adam ]]

I never had a service reminder come up on the truck.

puzzling...

 

[MTNDOG]

puzzling...

Really makes you think they reset it when they did the oil change. You can't miss the service warning, lovely bong every time you get in.

 

[Zimm]

Really makes you think they reset it when they did the oil change. You can't miss the service warning, lovely bong every time you get in.

yep… they reset it without doing the service. They own it. There’s your lawsuit fella.

 

[Shopkeep]

I am at the triple bonger service reminder stage; one for hours, one for days and one for kms.