Any contracts signed in 2023?

[globalgregors]

I had a similar experience implementing SAP at the Belgian railways, as an external non-SAP maintenance expert: the software is fantastic, you can do almost everything with it, but the big consulting companies are crap!

“Experienced with SAP” might need to be a new tab on the member profile. Hey: easy bagging the consultancies though. Let’s not ignore une certaine complicité between the product and the purchaser (disclaimer: former Accenture/Andersen - guilty as charged).

 

[bemax]

In reality, the demand for Grenadiers will be such that regardless of specification, in the early days even one in sky blue pink with yellow spots would sell!

I am interested in that one! Can you please send a photo and an account number, so I can transfer the money.
By the way, in what country starts my „hard way home“ journey?

 

[Jean Mercier]

“Experienced with SAP” might need to be a new tab on the member profile. Hey: easy bagging the consultancies though. Let’s not ignore une certaine complicité between the product and the purchaser (disclaimer: former Accenture/Andersen - guilty as charged).

When I say the big consulting companies are "crap", I am not speaking about individual senior expert consultants (even belonging to Arthur Andersen or Ernst & Young), neither about the young bright guys they hire!
I am saying this because I agree completely with what Klarie said:

... very large consulting firms that were selling novices with 6 weeks beginners courses as experts to customers...

I was hired several times by big consulting companies because I was myself a "senior expert" consultant in a very specific branch "maintenance management" (now called "asset" management), but had to work with young bright guys who scarcely knew their senior consultants, and didn't believe me when I tried to explain them that "maintenance" is VERY different from "production": almost nothing is predictable, especially not the "bigger problems".

It is like car maintenance: you can predict tire/tyre wear and oil replacement but not the failure of the turbo charger. Try to explain that to a young guy who gets every 3 years a brand new company car!

 

[globalgregors]

When I say the big consulting companies are "crap", I am not speaking about individual senior expert consultants (even belonging to Arthur Andersen or Ernst & Young), neither about the young bright guys they hire!
I am saying this because I agree completely with what Klarie said:

I was hired several times by big consulting companies because I was myself a "senior expert" consultant in a very specific branch "maintenance management" (now called "asset" management), but had to work with young bright guys who scarcely knew their senior consultants, and didn't believe me when I tried to explain them that "maintenance" is VERY different from "production": almost nothing is predictable, especially not the "bigger problems".

It is like car maintenance: you can predict tire/tyre wear and oil replacement but not the failure of the turbo charger. Try to explain that to a young guy who gets every 3 years a brand new company car!

But JM: someone in those “big consulting companies” recognised a gap and plugged it with your expertise and insight, and a client agreed to it. That’s only necessary when such talent is not present or available to the project in the client organisation. Shouldn’t an asset owner know how to maintain their asset? If they did have resources, why were they not made available to the (very expensive) project? Easy to blame the consultants but I’d ask a few more “why?”s…

This also why I’m reasonably ambivalent about the Ineos service organisation in the first couple of years of ownership. Being the asset owner it’s encumbent on me to understand it’s sustainment needs and operate it accordingly… after a time the service organisation will accumulate more knowledge than me but in the short term I’ll likely be in a more intimate relationship with the vehicle than their box-fresh local service manager.

It’d be different if I never left Sydney perhaps, so I’m not suggesting this applies to all owners. It’s just that I’ll be taking the vehicle into the sticks.

 

[klarie]

“Experienced with SAP” might need to be a new tab on the member profile. Hey: easy bagging the consultancies though. Let’s not ignore une certaine complicité between the product and the purchaser (disclaimer: former Accenture/Andersen - guilty as charged).

ROTFL.. Hm a former colleague from Ireland called a very special company „Indenture“..
However I used to know some fellows from mention consulting companies that were really nice chaps.
Felt they were mistreated and burnt by their employer. Make hours .. not solutions. Certain outfit.. carried in buses ..
Lots of the better ones leave after 1 to 2 years ..
But once again.. it’s processes I experienced something with box cars on trains.. to be loaded with vehicle spare parts
What was forgotten was eg that a Boxcar has only a limited volume, what spare part fit into which boxcar, volume, weight and size.. the so called doors closed rule when a box is full and put spares in the next..
Optimization .. So at the end noone knew in what train box car was the spare .. Took. a while to sort this issue out.
Just to be plain.. find some one or some product to put the blame on.
In this case it’s again processes and logistics processes.. if the rules and methods are not defined.. how shall the software know if that rule is not defined ?
It will exactly do what man instructs. Not what is meant.
And AI and learning algorithms won’t help there also.
This is still a human thingie.
Back to Ineos.. I still grant them „puppy protection“ so they encounter a lot of get to production process issues ..

The big boys like Toyota, Volkswagen have already and long term proven processes to go to market.
Something Ineos still has to work out Or improve

 

[globalgregors]

ROTFL.. Hm a former colleague from Ireland called a very special company „Indenture“..
However I used to know some fellows from mention consulting companies that were really nice chaps.
Felt they were mistreated and burnt by their employer. Make hours .. not solutions. Certain outfit.. carried in buses ..
Lots of the better ones leave after 1 to 2 years ..
But once again.. it’s processes I experienced something with box cars on trains.. to be loaded with vehicle spare parts
What was forgotten was eg that a Boxcar has only a limited volume, what spare part fit into which boxcar, volume, weight and size.. the so called doors closed rule when a box is full and put spares in the next..
Optimization .. So at the end noone knew in what train box car was the spare .. Took. a while to sort this issue out.
Just to be plain.. find some one or some product to put the blame on.
In this case it’s again processes and logistics processes.. if the rules and methods are not defined.. how shall the software know if that rule is not defined ?
It will exactly do what man instructs. Not what is meant.
And AI and learning algorithms won’t help there also.
This is still a human thingie.
Back to Ineos.. I still grant them „puppy protection“ so they encounter a lot of get to production process issues ..

The big boys like Toyota, Volkswagen have already and long term proven processes to go to market.
Something Ineos still has to work out Or improve

LOL Yes, that all sounds familiar.

I agree but with the caution that Toyota, Volkswagen etc processes are maybe less ‘proven’ that one might expect. Are they really doing such a good job? Drive an 80-series on a soft surface with it’s unequal wheel track slewing down the ruts and it doesn’t seem that way… or new Amarok vs last Amarok… not to mention those gleaming glass boxes of dealerships with leather couches and complimentary coffees. Why would I pay for those? Do I need Toyota to send me a Christmas cap or mug? Not to mention the whole EV debacle, or MB screwing it’s dealerships. It’s an industry in crisis.

I’m kind of hoping Ineos chart their own course, taking advantage of their relative agility and single point of ownership.

 

[Tazzieman]

I agree but with the caution that Toyota, Volkswagen etc processes are maybe less ‘proven’ that one might expect.

And dieselgate , and all those recalls - many serious issues - across all manufacturers.
As cars get more electrically complicated , reliability and longevity is reduced.
I have as much faith in IA as anyone else.

 

[emax]

I am not convinced that the delays are only due to legal reasons - contracts etc.

We know that all PTO and test drive vehicles were operated without functioning airbags and lockers. That was the case until the end of 2022. So obviously Ineos couldn't test those parts.

Now there are rumors that a certain firmware in the cars, especially related to the airbags, is the culprit. I'm not surprised by that. It looks like the company had - for whatever reason - delayed airbag testing too long, and now they're footing the bill. There could be other problems, too, but it's the airbag thing in particular that's leaked to the public.

I imagine that since airbags are a very critical component for various reasons (explosives ...), they are subject to intensive testing and approval procedures. And the moment a government agency is involved, you can just forget about any timeline.

Everything else - international contracts and global rollout - may be new to Ineos Automotive, but not to Ineos. I suspect that Ineos has a worldwide network of the best lawyers that can be afforded, and they would of course act for Ineos Automotive for a fee if it were necessary.

But the approval process for a product is a regulatory thing, there's nothing you can do about it. I once built a house. With an approval process that is actually a purely routine matter. But it took months to get through the regulatory process, and there was just nothing I could do but wait.

If an airbag system doesn't work properly or there's a tiny error, if even an indicator light doesn't light up properly, the thing hangs with the authorities and many tasks in the process have to be worked through from the beginning.

 

[klarie]

@globalgregors yes . here next larger town Friedberg/Bad Nauheim (once Elvis Presley's post when he was in US Army) Ford Kögler has an enormous palace..
Amarok - as a hunter ugly offroad capability. - may of these got stuck.. (Do not know if car or lack of drivers skill perhaps both)
The problem of the industry is distributed production, many parts made in China, or in Ukraine. just in time production, so if there is a little interruption in supply the entire chain is broken. Software and permanently regulatory impact. The supporting industry is already complaining and about to lay off 100.000 employees here.
Production will be moved to other countries or just stop.
This is now a bit political but I cannot avoid it as it is directly related to the topic.
This week the German chancellor met with some "experts" including church representatives (but no automotive person) on the effects of unemployment and automobile crisis.. - Its crazy to speak with non subject matter persons on a topic that is more or less affecting Germany entirely. There is in Germany a lobbying organization called "Deutsche Umwelthilfe" - The German Environment Support" that is in fact a small group of lawyer - lobbyists taking automotive companies and towns to court for things they did in pollution and so on. And issue dissuasion with extreme fees that is what they make their money with. Indirectly supported by the German government .. so to push more stricter laws - restrict / forbid diesel or petrol powered vehicles and btw sponsored by Toyota. The other part is to push the Great Reset and UN Agenda..
And now wondering what the effects on Industry are .. more people unemployed.. depended, lower tax revenue, secondary economy down ..
If Volkswagen Audi BMW or Mercedes Benz fail. Opel & Ford . go down.. and the supply companies .. such as ZF, Hella, Bosch.
On pure electric vehicles noone needs big gear boxes or mufflers.. - lots fewer parts and by parts not very complex.
The electric stuff can be easily and cheaply manufactured in China.
This is not just Germany but all other countries manufacturing vehicles will face the same, if Volvo, JLR already owned by Tata.., Peugeot, Citroen.. all the same..
The French workforce is not as silent and indulgent as the Germans.. if their jobs are endangered .. they go to burn on street. Already proven.
Seen in the agricultural, seen elsewhere. I doubt we will see this in Germany.. but from 2021 / 22 we experienced that even Germans and Austrians can be mobilised to street.
And I know the government here almost put the brown stuff in the pants. I know from inside but politics will never admit.

So the crisis affects Ineos as well too. - And yes even the big boys have their problems. And lie and cheat too. I think if someone digs deep enough.. all these companys have an army of skeletons each in their cupboards. Stop politics now - even worse.

 

[DaveB]

But JM: someone in those “big consulting companies” recognised a gap and plugged it with your expertise and insight, and a client agreed to it. That’s only necessary when such talent is not present or available to the project in the client organisation. Shouldn’t an asset owner know how to maintain their asset? If they did have resources, why were they not made available to the (very expensive) project? Easy to blame the consultants but I’d ask a few more “why?”s…

This also why I’m reasonably ambivalent about the Ineos service organisation in the first couple of years of ownership. Being the asset owner it’s encumbent on me to understand it’s sustainment needs and operate it accordingly… after a time the service organisation will accumulate more knowledge than me but in the short term I’ll likely be in a more intimate relationship with the vehicle than their box-fresh local service manager.

It’d be different if I never left Sydney perhaps, so I’m not suggesting this applies to all owners. It’s just that I’ll be taking the vehicle into the sticks.

I started a consulting company back in 2004 and after bidding on several contracts I was told I wasn't charging enough.
They said at my prices nobody would take me seriously.
I upped my charges to $1,100 a day (remember 2004 money) and started to charge for travel, meals, accommodation etc.
I charged $4,500 to give a 2 hour presentation to an annual meeting, plus costs, and then the board of directors asked me to stay and listen to the state managers presentations and give my feedback.
For an extra $1,500
I charged $6,500 plus costs to fly to Thailand for 4 days to negotiate a supply agreement
The more consultants charge the better they are perceived to be.

 

[DCPU]

We know that all PTO and test drive vehicles were operated without functioning airbags and lockers. That was the case until the end of 2022. So obviously Ineos couldn't test those parts.

I didn’t think we knew this?

It would seem odd that one or two PTO vehicles (or indeed earlier prototypes) were not designated as test mules for either system and such testing as was required was done away from public view, whilst a selection of the rest of the PTO fleet made their way about in public.

 

[DaveB]

@globalgregors yes . here next larger town Friedberg/Bad Nauheim (once Elvis Presley's post when he was in US Army) Ford Kögler has an enormous palace..
Amarok - as a hunter ugly offroad capability. - may of these got stuck.. (Do not know if car or lack of drivers skill perhaps both)
The problem of the industry is distributed production, many parts made in China, or in Ukraine. just in time production, so if there is a little interruption in supply the entire chain is broken. Software and permanently regulatory impact. The supporting industry is already complaining and about to lay off 100.000 employees here.
Production will be moved to other countries or just stop.
This is now a bit political but I cannot avoid it as it is directly related to the topic.
This week the German chancellor met with some "experts" including church representatives (but no automotive person) on the effects of unemployment and automobile crisis.. - Its crazy to speak with non subject matter persons on a topic that is more or less affecting Germany entirely. There is in Germany a lobbying organization called "Deutsche Umwelthilfe" - The German Environment Support" that is in fact a small group of lawyer - lobbyists taking automotive companies and towns to court for things they did in pollution and so on. And issue dissuasion with extreme fees that is what they make their money with. Indirectly supported by the German government .. so to push more stricter laws - restrict / forbid diesel or petrol powered vehicles and btw sponsored by Toyota. The other part is to push the Great Reset and UN Agenda..
And now wondering what the effects on Industry are .. more people unemployed.. depended, lower tax revenue, secondary economy down ..
If Volkswagen Audi BMW or Mercedes Benz fail. Opel & Ford . go down.. and the supply companies .. such as ZF, Hella, Bosch.
On pure electric vehicles noone needs big gear boxes or mufflers.. - lots fewer parts and by parts not very complex.
The electric stuff can be easily and cheaply manufactured in China.
This is not just Germany but all other countries manufacturing vehicles will face the same, if Volvo, JLR already owned by Tata.., Peugeot, Citroen.. all the same..
The French workforce is not as silent and indulgent as the Germans.. if their jobs are endangered .. they go to burn on street. Already proven.
Seen in the agricultural, seen elsewhere. I doubt we will see this in Germany.. but from 2021 / 22 we experienced that even Germans and Austrians can be mobilised to street.
And I know the government here almost put the brown stuff in the pants. I know from inside but politics will never admit.

So the crisis affects Ineos as well too. - And yes even the big boys have their problems. And lie and cheat too. I think if someone digs deep enough.. all these companys have an army of skeletons each in their cupboards. Stop politics now - even worse.

It concerns me when business and politicians get church representatives involved in decisions.
We have finally hit less than 50% of our population claiming to have any religious affiliation.
hopefully by next census that will have dropped below 30%

 

[Trialmaster]

@globalgregors yes . here next larger town Friedberg/Bad Nauheim (once Elvis Presley's post when he was in US Army) Ford Kögler has an enormous palace..
Amarok - as a hunter ugly offroad capability. - may of these got stuck.. (Do not know if car or lack of drivers skill perhaps both)
The problem of the industry is distributed production, many parts made in China, or in Ukraine. just in time production, so if there is a little interruption in supply the entire chain is broken. Software and permanently regulatory impact. The supporting industry is already complaining and about to lay off 100.000 employees here.
Production will be moved to other countries or just stop.
This is now a bit political but I cannot avoid it as it is directly related to the topic.
This week the German chancellor met with some "experts" including church representatives (but no automotive person) on the effects of unemployment and automobile crisis.. - Its crazy to speak with non subject matter persons on a topic that is more or less affecting Germany entirely. There is in Germany a lobbying organization called "Deutsche Umwelthilfe" - The German Environment Support" that is in fact a small group of lawyer - lobbyists taking automotive companies and towns to court for things they did in pollution and so on. And issue dissuasion with extreme fees that is what they make their money with. Indirectly supported by the German government .. so to push more stricter laws - restrict / forbid diesel or petrol powered vehicles and btw sponsored by Toyota. The other part is to push the Great Reset and UN Agenda..
And now wondering what the effects on Industry are .. more people unemployed.. depended, lower tax revenue, secondary economy down ..
If Volkswagen Audi BMW or Mercedes Benz fail. Opel & Ford . go down.. and the supply companies .. such as ZF, Hella, Bosch.
On pure electric vehicles noone needs big gear boxes or mufflers.. - lots fewer parts and by parts not very complex.
The electric stuff can be easily and cheaply manufactured in China.
This is not just Germany but all other countries manufacturing vehicles will face the same, if Volvo, JLR already owned by Tata.., Peugeot, Citroen.. all the same..
The French workforce is not as silent and indulgent as the Germans.. if their jobs are endangered .. they go to burn on street. Already proven.
Seen in the agricultural, seen elsewhere. I doubt we will see this in Germany.. but from 2021 / 22 we experienced that even Germans and Austrians can be mobilised to street.
And I know the government here almost put the brown stuff in the pants. I know from inside but politics will never admit.

So the crisis affects Ineos as well too. - And yes even the big boys have their problems. And lie and cheat too. I think if someone digs deep enough.. all these companys have an army of skeletons each in their cupboards. Stop politics now - even worse.

Enjoyed reading your post, I think you are right. In the UK, we see the Green Lobyists winning and the remaining industries that have not been exported to China threatened. Europe needs to awaken and fast.

 

[rovie]

@globalgregors yes . here next larger town Friedberg/Bad Nauheim (once Elvis Presley's post when he was in US Army) Ford Kögler has an enormous palace..
Amarok - as a hunter ugly offroad capability. - may of these got stuck.. (Do not know if car or lack of drivers skill perhaps both)
The problem of the industry is distributed production, many parts made in China, or in Ukraine. just in time production, so if there is a little interruption in supply the entire chain is broken. Software and permanently regulatory impact. The supporting industry is already complaining and about to lay off 100.000 employees here.
Production will be moved to other countries or just stop.
This is now a bit political but I cannot avoid it as it is directly related to the topic.
This week the German chancellor met with some "experts" including church representatives (but no automotive person) on the effects of unemployment and automobile crisis.. - Its crazy to speak with non subject matter persons on a topic that is more or less affecting Germany entirely. There is in Germany a lobbying organization called "Deutsche Umwelthilfe" - The German Environment Support" that is in fact a small group of lawyer - lobbyists taking automotive companies and towns to court for things they did in pollution and so on. And issue dissuasion with extreme fees that is what they make their money with. Indirectly supported by the German government .. so to push more stricter laws - restrict / forbid diesel or petrol powered vehicles and btw sponsored by Toyota. The other part is to push the Great Reset and UN Agenda..
And now wondering what the effects on Industry are .. more people unemployed.. depended, lower tax revenue, secondary economy down ..
If Volkswagen Audi BMW or Mercedes Benz fail. Opel & Ford . go down.. and the supply companies .. such as ZF, Hella, Bosch.
On pure electric vehicles noone needs big gear boxes or mufflers.. - lots fewer parts and by parts not very complex.
The electric stuff can be easily and cheaply manufactured in China.
This is not just Germany but all other countries manufacturing vehicles will face the same, if Volvo, JLR already owned by Tata.., Peugeot, Citroen.. all the same..
The French workforce is not as silent and indulgent as the Germans.. if their jobs are endangered .. they go to burn on street. Already proven.
Seen in the agricultural, seen elsewhere. I doubt we will see this in Germany.. but from 2021 / 22 we experienced that even Germans and Austrians can be mobilised to street.
And I know the government here almost put the brown stuff in the pants. I know from inside but politics will never admit.

So the crisis affects Ineos as well too. - And yes even the big boys have their problems. And lie and cheat too. I think if someone digs deep enough.. all these companys have an army of skeletons each in their cupboards. Stop politics now - even worse.

But that does not speak for straightforwardness and consistency. On 15.1. you told me that I was deviating from the topic. Now you are doing the same with prior apologies.
I agree with you on the content.

 

[Jean Mercier]

I started a consulting company back in 2004 and after bidding on several contracts I was told I wasn't charging enough.
They said at my prices nobody would take me seriously.

I started in 1985 as a junior consultant in a major pure Belgian consulting company, and was send to a customer after 2 weeks "training" in the office. After some months, the project manager of the plant I was working in, invited me to lunch in a restaurant, and he told me: I am quite happy with the job you are doing, but I am not so happy that your company is training you in my factory! Then I had several jobs often close to consulting, but inside companies as an employee or as a "seconded employee".
I started in 2000 as an independent consultant, and my first customer was a company I had worked for in the past. After making an offer (650€/day) and starting, my customer told me my price was very low compared to other external people!
Gradually I rose my price substantially (I dared to ask between 900 and 1100 €/day + transportation costs), and almost nobody complained.
Once, through a bug in the implementation of SAP at the Belgian railways, bug I found by casuality, I could see the prices of ALL external consultants. I was among the 20% best paid! That was OK for me!.
I stopped 3 years ago.

 

[klarie]

@DaveB first I had a laugh but indeed. I think this has nothing to do with the enforced decline of the manufacturing industry in Europe. (It is not just related to automotive)
But I assume they just discussed the social side effects.
In a way this reminds me a bit at the "Hunger Games" trilogy.. So China becomes the manufacturing place for everything... US the military part,..
But Europe is facing also an entirely social change / But China too. Japan even worse.. aging people.
In Germany we facing more deaths in the last 2 years than average,. also many miscarriages. But general. fewer people in working and tax generating age.. also many low qualifieds instead of people in apprentice of crafting work, engineers in Math, construction, IT.. metal .. Knowledge in steel / Stainless stell casting is gone..
That affects a lot.. so if you want a job here with some qualification that is more than sing, dance, paint.. you could get a whole selection.. -
Ineos has Job offerings, many smaller companies have plenty.. - even if Amazon and many big players are laying off. - There are plenty of jobs for qualified staff.
But there is the term .. qualified..
The German government is confronted with quite some problems.. but perhaps the social side effects will be the least of concern in Europe if these things go off. (In this case, I assume the niche player Ineos manufacturing locally at the end has more chance to survive as any electric manufacturer depending on China supply) ..

 

[DaveB]

Enjoyed reading your post, I think you are right. In the UK, we see the Green Lobyists winning and the remaining industries that have not been exported to China threatened. Europe needs to awaken and fast.

COVID was a huge wakeup for Australia
Suddenly we couldn't rely on tourism, cheap backpacker labour or overseas products.
We went to effectively 100% employment quickly and manufacture of our own medicine and food.

 

[DaveB]

@DaveB first I had a laugh but indeed. I think this has nothing to do with the enforced decline of the manufacturing industry in Europe. (It is not just related to automotive)
But I assume they just discussed the social side effects.
In a way this reminds me a bit at the "Hunger Games" trilogy.. So China becomes the manufacturing place for everything... US the military part,..
But Europe is facing also an entirely social change / But China too. Japan even worse.. aging people.
In Germany we facing more deaths in the last 2 years than average,. also many miscarriages. But general. fewer people in working and tax generating age.. also many low qualifieds instead of people in apprentice of crafting work, engineers in Math, construction, IT.. metal .. Knowledge in steel / Stainless stell casting is gone..
That affects a lot.. so if you want a job here with some qualification that is more than sing, dance, paint.. you could get a whole selection.. -
Ineos has Job offerings, many smaller companies have plenty.. - even if Amazon and many big players are laying off. - There are plenty of jobs for qualified staff.
But there is the term .. qualified..
The German government is confronted with quite some problems.. but perhaps the social side effects will be the least of concern in Europe if these things go off. (In this case, I assume the niche player Ineos manufacturing locally at the end has more chance to survive as any electric manufacturer depending on China supply) ..

Sorry I don't know which one of my comments you are referring to.
We have a huge shortfall of qualified trades people.
When I started my apprenticeship I was 15 and was paid $3,998 a year
By the time I was finished they required an apprentice to have year 12 at school which made him 17/18 years old and on an adult wage of $14,000 per year ( 1992 money)
What company could afford to hire a first year apprentice on that money???
For less than that they could get a 30 year old trades assistant with 10 years experience.

 

[klarie]

But that does not speak for straightforwardness and consistency. On 15.1. you told me that I was deviating from the topic. Now you are doing the same with prior apologies.
I agree with you on the content.

That is related.. we are still on conracts and related processes . So it is the process - and why. We are in a rather difficult topic and we know that is related to.
Contracts out are delayed. Why: Some blame processes, Some software, some politics, regulations and international crisis.
I think and repeat myself its mainly process related and Ineos is a puppy in automotive.
My representative told me in December 2022 already new contracts will be issued not before late January / February 2023..
What I tried was to calm down.. but that is difficult. Freddy did sing once .. " I want it all I want it now.." patience is not human habit.

 

[Tazzieman]

Meanwhile today, I just watched some damselflies having afternoon sex, and went for a run after.
Not much I can do to save the world or indeed , speed up my contract...