Any contracts signed in 2023?

[Tazzieman]

One thing life has taught me is that the Speculatoscope is not as powerful or reliable as the Retrospectoscope.
Hang in there chaps!

 

[JohnHeagney]

Thinking a bit deeper, I feel very sorry for the Ineos Dealers, especially the smaller ones who don’t have the deep pockets of the larger groups, who have invested massively in premises, signage, workshops, service engineers and their own time and who are not earning a single penny but they are at the coalface having to talk to and pacify customers who have placed orders and are at the mercy of the lack of communication from Ineos.
They are the face of Ineos on the ground and they are in my opinion doing a great job under difficult circumstances while earning nothing but watching the money flowing out of their businesses on all of the very considerable costs associated with running a dealership and workshop service operation and still being positive!

 

[marko]

Thinking a bit deeper, I feel very sorry for the Ineos Dealers, especially the smaller ones who don’t have the deep pockets of the larger groups, who have invested massively in premises, signage, workshops, service engineers and their own time and who are not earning a single penny but they are at the coalface having to talk to and pacify customers who have placed orders and are at the mercy of the lack of communication from Ineos.
They are the face of Ineos on the ground and they are in my opinion doing a great job under difficult circumstances while earning nothing but watching the money flowing out of their businesses on all of the very considerable costs associated with running a dealership and workshop service operation and still being positive!

Spot on!

 

[@nd]

So, here we are at the end of yet another week and the promised contract has still not arrived.
I had a call from my helpful Dealer on Monday with the “Heads up” that it wasn’t going to arrive that day but should be here this week.
The time now in the UK is 18:45 and no contract…
Has anyone received a contract in 2023 yet? The production system seems to be running, there are comments that vehicles are being built regardless of contract, if so the time between contract and delivery may be short - if so many of us will be happy!
Ineos have achieved so much is a relatively short space of time and must be congratulated on all that they have achieved but one point that they haven’t managed to do well is Communication…

had the same from my allocated dealer

 

[marko]

Text of my live chat with INEOS Automotive customer services Friday lunchtime......

Q: Hi, are you still planning on issuing me with my contract this week? Thanks.

A: Thanks for your question. I would like to say Yes, but we have experienced a bit of a delay with this and unfortunately we have no further update on when contracts will be sent. I can assure you that it will be sent very soon, hopefully by the end of the month. I understand the frustration. I do apologise for the confusing communications. We have also been expecting the contracts to for out for a while now, but for some reason we are still waiting. We believe this has been a knock on effect from general delays the automotive industry has been facing the past year.

"Laura" was very helpful and polite but clearly doesn't have the full picture to be able to provide an informed response. I wouldn't want her job (dealing with us lot!) right now!

 

[JohnHeagney]

Text of my live chat with INEOS Automotive customer services Friday lunchtime......

Q: Hi, are you still planning on issuing me with my contract this week? Thanks.

A: Thanks for your question. I would like to say Yes, but we have experienced a bit of a delay with this and unfortunately we have no further update on when contracts will be sent. I can assure you that it will be sent very soon, hopefully by the end of the month. I understand the frustration. I do apologise for the confusing communications. We have also been expecting the contracts to for out for a while now, but for some reason we are still waiting. We believe this has been a knock on effect from general delays the automotive industry has been facing the past year.

"Laura" was very helpful and polite but clearly doesn't have the full picture to be able to provide an informed response. I wouldn't want her job (dealing with us lot!) right now!

This demonstrates that Ineos are not even keeping their own Comms team in the picture based on Laura’s comment “We believe this has been a knock on effect…”, she seems to be guessing at the reason. Therefore I have great sympathy with their own Comms team as well as the Dealers!

Hopefully while all of this is going on, production continues and we are actually closer to receiving our promised Grenadiers, let’s be optimistic and hope for an early delivery - the contracts shouldn’t slow anything down as whatever vehicles they build, regardless of specification, will be highly saleable!

 

[klarie]

This demonstrates that Ineos are not even keeping their own Comms team in the picture based on Laura’s comment “We believe this has been a knock on effect…”, she seems to be guessing at the reason. Therefore I have great sympathy with their own Comms team as well as the Dealers!

Hopefully while all of this is going on, production continues and we are actually closer to receiving our promised Grenadiers, let’s be optimistic and hope for an early delivery - the contracts shouldn’t slow anything down as whatever vehicles they build, regardless of specification, will be highly saleable!

As an IT person Fully agree. The bureaucratic processes, legal topics, may perhaps more hindering delivery than just producing something.
Its not just the contract, there are so many background processes, also perhaps local laws that as of now - due to missing spec info or changing spec info may release the contract. .. Eg. Emissions, bumpers, control software.. a contract is binding paper for customer and supplier. - The customer must "just" provide the money, the provider a vehicle that meet customer demand but also compliant.. e.g. Austria regulation may inhibit an entire market for Ineos.

 

[JohnHeagney]

As an IT person Fully agree. The bureaucratic processes, legal topics, may perhaps more hindering delivery than just producing something.
Its not just the contract, there are so many background processes, also perhaps local laws that as of now - due to missing spec info or changing spec info may release the contract. .. Eg. Emissions, bumpers, control software.. a contract is binding paper for customer and supplier. - The customer must "just" provide the money, the provider a vehicle that meet customer demand but also compliant.. e.g. Austria regulation may inhibit an entire market for Ineos.

Klarie, I fully agree with you, it is a shame that the legal bods didn’t set the wheels turning to achieve the required contract that is complicated by launching Worldwide but I understand that the software they are using is SAP… very good but famed for being completed in twice the timescale and at twice the cost!

 

[marko]

As an IT person Fully agree. The bureaucratic processes, legal topics, may perhaps more hindering delivery than just producing something.
Its not just the contract, there are so many background processes, also perhaps local laws that as of now - due to missing spec info or changing spec info may release the contract. .. Eg. Emissions, bumpers, control software.. a contract is binding paper for customer and supplier. - The customer must "just" provide the money, the provider a vehicle that meet customer demand but also compliant.. e.g. Austria regulation may inhibit an entire market for Ineos.

I agree with you, but what's really puzzling is that IA issued contracts beginning of November in several markets (e.g. UK, Australia, Germany, maybe more) which one assumes would have been compliant with local regulations at the time. They have now had in excess of 2 months to complete any legal updates and re-issue a second batch of contracts in those same markets. That seems to me to be sufficient time for a line by line review and update. I accept that markets not included in the first batch could take more time to create from scratch but even then I would have thought there must be model forms of car and truck sales contracts their lawyers could plagiarise. I remain puzzled!

 

[klarie]

Klarie, I fully agree with you, it is a shame that the legal bods didn’t set the wheels turning to achieve the required contract that is complicated by launching Worldwide but I understand that the software they are using is SAP… very good but famed for being completed in twice the timescale and at twice the cost!

Hm.. John.. I should know that particular software quite well. And the "fame" came from some very large consulting firms that were selling novices with 6 weeks beginners courses as experts to customers.. but blaming the vendor when bending the product for what is what not inteded and using the brand name to charge huge rates as a money printing machine. Got some experience with it.. 26 years in October this year.
But this is mostly not a software problem. - This is just a configuration issue and to know the right switch to enable or disable.
However - there is something Ineos is a newbie on too - What is the configuration, when can I plan it to build and all components are there, get a VIN, get the papers, etc etc..

when I ordered my MB GLK (made in Bremen at that time 250CDI) bought directly at a Mercedes Benz facility not a dealer. -- the salesperson rang in Bremen the factory scheduling agent ( same software used btw.) have a look at this order number.. by when can you make it.. .. so he did not only look at parts needed, but staff, tools maintenance windows and other various impacting factors. I got a quite close build date based on that.
So that is not software but mainly processes and consider all the other jobs inflicted. Like in Golf.. Ineos is at beginners level.. so 7 at par 5. .. and as they are old school and not in a hip electric segment.. the course rating is also a bit higher.

Btw - my IT focus is not automotive at all. - I do regulated markets.. fin, pharma, telco, def.. , quality and anything that is related to regulatory stuff, tax, track /trace / audit..
Most people find it boring.. and its a must - not hip.. it doesnt give you any money - but saves just from fines.

 

[Jean Mercier]

Hm.. John.. I should know that particular software quite well. And the "fame" came from some very large consulting firms that were selling novices with 6 weeks beginners courses as experts to customers.. but blaming the vendor when bending the product for what is what not inteded and using the brand name to charge huge rates as a money printing machine. Got some experience with it.. 26 years in October this year.
But this is mostly not a software problem. - This is just a configuration issue and to know the right switch to enable or disable.

I had a similar experience implementing SAP at the Belgian railways, as an external non-SAP maintenance expert: the software is fantastic, you can do almost everything with it, but the big consulting companies are crap!

 

[ECrider]

Quite a leap of faith I think for Ineos to produce cars without signed contracts. There must be some people out there now questioning their £2500 decision, along with those that have a sudden change of circumstances and no longer have the funds to proceed. I've spec'd a SW with panel sides with diffs/elecs/safaris/winch etc etc, if IA come a long and say like they did to Deepblue your car is in production and will be with your agent end of the month I cld just turn around and say, nah sorry I've changed my mind. They've then got to find someone who wants my spec like for like. Granted prices increased etc but still a fair sized gamble without tying me in legally. (think Deepblue has signed a contract but just using as an example).

 

[JohnHeagney]

Hm.. John.. I should know that particular software quite well. And the "fame" came from some very large consulting firms that were selling novices with 6 weeks beginners courses as experts to customers.. but blaming the vendor when bending the product for what is what not inteded and using the brand name to charge huge rates as a money printing machine. Got some experience with it.. 26 years in October this year.
But this is mostly not a software problem. - This is just a configuration issue and to know the right switch to enable or disable.
However - there is something Ineos is a newbie on too - What is the configuration, when can I plan it to build and all components are there, get a VIN, get the papers, etc etc..

when I ordered my MB GLK (made in Bremen at that time 250CDI) bought directly at a Mercedes Benz facility not a dealer. -- the salesperson rang in Bremen the factory scheduling agent ( same software used btw.) have a look at this order number.. by when can you make it.. .. so he did not only look at parts needed, but staff, tools maintenance windows and other various impacting factors. I got a quite close build date based on that.
So that is not software but mainly processes and consider all the other jobs inflicted. Like in Golf.. Ineos is at beginners level.. so 7 at par 5. .. and as they are old school and not in a hip electric segment.. the course rating is also a bit higher.

Btw - my IT focus is not automotive at all. - I do regulated markets.. fin, pharma, telco, def.. , quality and anything that is related to regulatory stuff, tax, track /trace / audit..
Most people find it boring.. and its a must - not hip.. it doesnt give you any money - but saves just from fines.

Klarie, you have it spot on in your posting, informative and factual! Thanks

 

[JohnHeagney]

Quite a leap of faith I think for Ineos to produce cars without signed contracts. There must be some people out there now questioning their £2500 decision, along with those that have a sudden change of circumstances and no longer have the funds to proceed. I've spec'd a SW with panel sides with diffs/elecs/safaris/winch etc etc, if IA come a long and say like they did to Deepblue your car is in production and will be with your agent end of the month I cld just turn around and say, nah sorry I've changed my mind. They've then got to find someone who wants my spec like for like. Granted prices increased etc but still a fair sized gamble without tying me in legally. (think Deepblue has signed a contract but just using as an example).

In reality, the demand for Grenadiers will be such that regardless of specification, in the early days even one in sky blue pink with yellow spots would sell!

 

[To]

Quite a leap of faith I think for Ineos to produce cars without signed contracts. There must be some people out there now questioning their £2500 decision, along with those that have a sudden change of circumstances and no longer have the funds to proceed. I've spec'd a SW with panel sides with diffs/elecs/safaris/winch etc etc, if IA come a long and say like they did to Deepblue your car is in production and will be with your agent end of the month I cld just turn around and say, nah sorry I've changed my mind. They've then got to find someone who wants my spec like for like. Granted prices increased etc but still a fair sized gamble without tying me in legally. (think Deepblue has signed a contract but just using as an example).

When Ineos produces Grenadiers for customers, where are they located? Are the cars on the company premises in Hambach? Probably not in the factory halls, because they are probably not big enough to accommodate so many vehicles.

 

[das mo]

Quite a leap of faith I think for Ineos to produce cars without signed contracts. There must be some people out there now questioning their £2500 decision, along with those that have a sudden change of circumstances and no longer have the funds to proceed. I've spec'd a SW with panel sides with diffs/elecs/safaris/winch etc etc, if IA come a long and say like they did to Deepblue your car is in production and will be with your agent end of the month I cld just turn around and say, nah sorry I've changed my mind. They've then got to find someone who wants my spec like for like. Granted prices increased etc but still a fair sized gamble without tying me in legally. (think Deepblue has signed a contract but just using as an example).

Still better risking to have few cars sitting around a bit longer than have all your staff in Hambach sitting around doing nothing, no?

 

[Deepblue]

In reality, the demand for Grenadiers will be such that regardless of specification, in the early days even one in sky blue pink with yellow spots would sell!

where could you find such fancy color combi in the configurator?? I only saw some conservative ones so went with Magic Mushroom...

 

[ECrider]

Still better risking to have few cars sitting around a bit longer than have all your staff in Hambach sitting around doing nothing, no?

fair point. less than ideal

 

[Jean Mercier]

 

[JohnHeagney]

Still better risking to have few cars sitting around a bit longer than have all your staff in Hambach sitting around doing nothing, no?

Absolutely correct!