Fusilier On Hold???

holdmybeer · Jul 12, 2024

Yukons were also my preferred rental vehicles for a few years. Drove one across and all around Alaska, on and off pavement. It’s a lovely, comfy, full sized touring vehicle for sure.

Grenadier overlayed on Yukon below.

Also had one in LA. And that was just bloody annoying. Would be fine in AZ, I imagine, where lanes and parking are gloriously huyuuuge.

Logsplitter · Jul 12, 2024

Jeremy996 said:
UK Devonian and Cornish lanes are much the same, with the added fun of hard, high hedges.

It’s bad enough in a Grenadier. I’ve done a lot of hedge cutting with mine today in Devon

landmannnn · Jul 12, 2024

Just reading about troubles at Polestar, apparently due to cut 30% of their Chinese workforce.
If an established brand (Volvo) with a good EV is struggling, what hope would Ineos' have?

https://www.carscoops.com/2024/07/polestar-could-be-delisted-from-nasdaq-as-collapsed-share-prices-remain/

bemax · Jul 12, 2024

I see that many producers of BEVs have big problems right now. But to be fair it is not because nobody wants to buy them. The selling numbers rise from year to year. But right now the production capacity worldwide has increased even more.
I still believe that Ineos wanted to take advantage of the production of the Fiskal Ocean in Graz.
As this project died the basement of the Fusilier project died with it.

CrazyOldMan · Jul 12, 2024

holdmybeer said:
Yukons were also my preferred rental vehicles for a few years. Drove one across and all around Alaska, on and off pavement. It’s a lovely, comfy, full sized touring vehicle for sure.

Grenadier overlayed on Yukon below.

Also had one in LA. And that was just bloody annoying. Would be fine in AZ, I imagine, where lanes and parking are gloriously huyuuuge.
View attachment 7863221

“GMC Yukon - so your kids don’t murder each other.” I think they ran that in a test group.

CrazyOldMan · Jul 12, 2024

255/85 said:
Does Europe's "No ICE" position also reduces the possibility of an REx Grenadier (or even an hybrid version) in markets that could benefit from such a model? I'm thinking North American rather than African or Australian markets. What is Ineos' option going forward? They will need something to offset all the carbon that Grenadiers produce.

Sorry - back on topic of the Fusilier - I’m wondering the same thing. I don’t know the details of the US CAFE regulations or the “2035 deadline” about ICE production in Europe. Can INEOS even continue to produce the Grenadier in Hambach after 2035? Was their plan to produce the Fusilier in Europe and the Grenadier elsewhere, like the US? Does the 2035 rule mean European plants can’t produce ANY ICE vehicles, or only for export? I would love it if one of you could walk us through some of the intricacies of this . . . I think all of us are wondering about the viability of Ineos Automotive in light of European regulations - or whether it is a calculated bet that those will change.

255/85 · Jul 13, 2024

I guess my question appeared rhetorical but it was actually a genuine concern. If 2035 is some kind of global end to Grenadier manufacturing as we know it, that gives us roughly 12 years of production. Not the worst case scenario for those keeping their vehicles long term but not quite what we were hoping for either.

Do I start hoarding parts now?

CrazyOldMan · Jul 13, 2024

255/85 said:
I guess my question appeared rhetorical but it was actually a genuine concern. If 2035 is some kind of global end to Grenadier manufacturing as we know it, that gives us roughly 12 years of production. Not the worst case scenario for those keeping their vehicles long term but not quite what we were hoping for either.

Do I start hoarding parts now?

Yeah I’m right there with you. I am GENUINELY asking whether Ineos is allowed to continue to manufacture the Grenadier in Hambach, and if so, is that ONLY for export? I don’t understand how the EU regulation is going to work. All I know is that every time I’m there (Europe, I mean), which is multiple times a year, my drivers are all bitching about it. But I know Ineos aren’t stupid, so if they CAN’T produce in Hambach with an ICE drive train, either the purchase price factored in a switch to an alternate product line that would be compliant, or presumed it supporting only export, or they would wind it down and switch locations - SOMETHING. I don’t think it could have just been “we hope the regulation changes.” But I just don’t really understand the regulation.

flynnsk · Jul 14, 2024

bemax said:
One step back to the original topic:
Am I wrong if I am skeptical about the idea that INEOS wanted to build an "own" electric vehicle?
I always thought that they wanted it to be build by Magna, because the Fiskar Ocean is build there as well.
I had the imagination that the Fusilier would be based on the Oceans platform.

Any idea if this might be more than speculation?

Just speculation on my part, given that Ineos Chemical is one of the worlds largest suppliers of Hydrogen the combination of EV (Short term) and Hydrogen would have been a perfect match. Long term is a whole other story. Not much for details on sustainability, maintenance, etc of the skateboard design other than potential for easy access to the motor. (nothing about batteries).
I would love to see the Fusilier take off, and now have may be a little more appreciation for the Uber Lux such as Detour, Arcane Works. Ineos Automotive has to make up some of that invested KaChing from somewhere.

flynnsk · Jul 14, 2024

255/85 said:
I guess my question appeared rhetorical but it was actually a genuine concern. If 2035 is some kind of global end to Grenadier manufacturing as we know it, that gives us roughly 12 years of production. Not the worst case scenario for those keeping their vehicles long term but not quite what we were hoping for either.

Do I start hoarding parts now?

It was/is my understanding that the 2035 cut off date is when the EU ban on fossil fuel vehicles takes place. Still gives a decade+ to get towards Hydrogen/Hybrid or may be, potentially by then we might actually have access to the MY2023-2024 Ineos Grenadier SW/FM/TM/QM Service Manuals ;p

emax · Jul 14, 2024

They are not banned, you may still drive and privately sell or buy them. But no new such vehicles shall be sold and/or registered in EU.

I'm however sure reality will teach them what hubris is.

CrazyOldMan · Jul 14, 2024

emax said:
They are not banned, you may still drive and privately sell or buy them. But no new such vehicles shall be sold and/or registered in EU.

I'm however sure reality will teach them what hubris is.

So I’m totally confused about what this means for the Grenadier and Hambach production. Unless hydrogen is up and running (no way) or carbon neutral fuel production is at scale (seems kind of doubtful) - isn’t the Grenadier over in Europe by 2035? If they continue to manufacture it in Hambach, would that only be for export? I was genuinely shocked that the range extender variant of the Fusilier would have been considered non-compliant with the 2035 deadline. I mean, the EFFECTIVE fuel economy would have been great. 95% of the time, it would have just run on battery. You would only activate the ICE range extender rarely - holiday travel, weekend ski trips, whatever. But insisting on BEV only - that just kills the Fusilier, and leaves me wondering how they will address the situation for the Grenadier.

DaveB · Jul 14, 2024

CrazyOldMan said:
So I’m totally confused about what this means for the Grenadier and Hambach production. Unless hydrogen is up and running (no way) or carbon neutral fuel production is at scale (seems kind of doubtful) - isn’t the Grenadier over in Europe by 2035? If they continue to manufacture it in Hambach, would that only be for export? I was genuinely shocked that the range extender variant of the Fusilier would have been considered non-compliant with the 2035 deadline. I mean, the EFFECTIVE fuel economy would have been great. 95% of the time, it would have just run on battery. You would only activate the ICE range extender rarely - holiday travel, weekend ski trips, whatever. But insisting on BEV only - that just kills the Fusilier, and leaves me wondering how they will address the situation for the Grenadier.

By 2035 we will be at war against China and there will be more important things to worry about.

CrazyOldMan · Jul 14, 2024

DaveB said:
By 2035 we will be at war against China and there will be more important things to worry about.

Thanks, Dave. Let’s do a Grenadier owner’s BBQ at your place - we can watch the mushroom clouds go up, and you can get one last listen to the Bangles “Eternal Flame” before we’re incinerated in the blast wave. Very fitting.

DaveB · Jul 14, 2024

CrazyOldMan said:
Thanks, Dave. Let’s do a Grenadier owner’s BBQ at your place - we can watch the mushroom clouds go up, and you can get one last listen to the Bangles “Eternal Flame” before we’re incinerated in the blast wave. Very fitting.

I certainly don't want the war but our military and your military see it as inevitable and are gearing up for it.
The war in Ukraine had a massive impact on the automotive industry as surprisingly a lot of auto wiring harnesses were made there.
A war with China will have a massive impact on electric vehicle manufacturing.
Very little chance it will go nuclear for the same reason Russia hasn't used nuclear against Ukraine.

CrazyOldMan · Jul 14, 2024

DaveB said:
I certainly don't want the war but our military and your military see it as inevitable and are gearing up for it.
The war in Ukraine had a massive impact on the automotive industry as surprisingly a lot of auto wiring harnesses were made there.
A war with China will have a massive impact on electric vehicle manufacturing.
Very little chance it will go nuclear for the same reason Russia hasn't used nuclear against Ukraine.

So does this mean the BBQ is on, or not? Just trying to make sure we’re all clear on the important facts, here.

Tazzieman · Jul 14, 2024

CrazyOldMan said:
So does this mean the BBQ is on, or not? Just trying to make sure we’re all clear on the important facts, here.

landmannnn · Jul 14, 2024

CrazyOldMan said:
So I’m totally confused about what this means for the Grenadier and Hambach production. Unless hydrogen is up and running (no way) or carbon neutral fuel production is at scale (seems kind of doubtful) - isn’t the Grenadier over in Europe by 2035? If they continue to manufacture it in Hambach, would that only be for export? I was genuinely shocked that the range extender variant of the Fusilier would have been considered non-compliant with the 2035 deadline. I mean, the EFFECTIVE fuel economy would have been great. 95% of the time, it would have just run on battery. You would only activate the ICE range extender rarely - holiday travel, weekend ski trips, whatever. But insisting on BEV only - that just kills the Fusilier, and leaves me wondering how they will address the situation for the Grenadier.

If, and it is a big if, the EU ban on new ICE vehicles comes into force in 2035, the Grenadier will be export only.
It also appears that small volume manufacturers will be exempt. Morgan for example. So maybe IG will still be able to sell a limited amount of vehicles in the EU.

emax · Jul 14, 2024

Yes, a really very big IF.

There is no logic in it and no plausibility: it is just dumb, green ideology, bullshit on the cost of the majority of the society.

You can not believe nothing which comes from them. And until 2035 there is still a long way to go.

CrazyOldMan · Jul 14, 2024

Tazzieman said:
View attachment 7863510

I did NOT need to see that - none of us did

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