Fusilier On Hold???

[AWo]

Using hydrogen in industry and for mobility is a far more complex and energy intensive thing, that many people have in mind. Far more...

Burning it in cars, to be honest, is a pure waste compared to the scaling effects it has in industrial use. Providing hydrogen for individual mobility has so many CO2 and energy intensive penalties, that it should be used by industrial users first.

And the most important thing is to increase dramatically the amount of green hydrogen first. Otherwise hydrogen is even more bad. Over 80% of hydrogen comes from ethane, today. That means 10 tons of CO2 for 1 ton of hydrogen.

AWo

 

[CrazyOldMan]

I thought they just meant American Cheese not the various styles of Chedders, etc.

Fie upon your feeble attempts at diplomatic reconciliation! The good and rotund citizens of Wisconsin are now at war with the antipodes of Australia! Our wrath knows no bounds! We will no longer say “opes” if we need to get past them in a store entrance. We will not mow their lawns if we are just in the neighborhood visiting. We will not smuggle secret New Glarus Spotted Cow contraband for them. We will not offer to bring them our delectable casseroles when they are feeling under the weather. The grill gloves have come off.

 

[G-Man]

This thread is so far off topic it's in another dimension

 

[CrazyOldMan]

This thread is so far off topic it's in another dimension

I think the answer to the Fusilier question and CAFE/2035 is “nobody knows what the hell is going to happen.”

 

[MRO]

Using hydrogen in industry and for mobility is a far more complex and energy intensive thing, that many people have in mind. Far more...

Burning it in cars, to be honest, is a pure waste compared to the scaling effects it has in industrial use. Providing hydrogen for individual mobility has so many CO2 and energy intensive penalties, that it should be used by industrial users first.

And the most important thing is to increase dramatically the amount of green hydrogen first. Otherwise hydrogen is even more bad. Over 80% of hydrogen comes from ethane, today. That means 10 tons of CO2 for 1 ton of hydrogen.

AWo

Couldn't agree more. Converting electricity to hydrogen loses 30% of the energy and then back to electricity the same. So electrolytic hydrogen throws away 50% of so of the energy before it is even used. Then you need different transport infrastructure for it given how small the hydrogen atoms are it leaks through normal steel.

Industrial uses where it is created and used on site and replaces coal is optimal and worthwhile, even if still expensive. Building an infrastructure for road use plus replacing ICEs with fuel cells is a complete waste of time versus BEV. There could be a use case for heavy trucks, mining equipment etc where it is far from existing fossil fuels and can be generated on site. Plus in these uses the fuel cells are constantly on which improves efficiency and life.

 

[CrazyOldMan]

Couldn't agree more. Converting electricity to hydrogen loses 30% of the energy and then back to electricity the same. So electrolytic hydrogen throws away 50% of so of the energy before it is even used. Then you need different transport infrastructure for it given how small the hydrogen atoms are it leaks through normal steel.

Industrial uses where it is created and used on site and replaces coal is optimal and worthwhile, even if still expensive. Building an infrastructure for road use plus replacing ICEs with fuel cells is a complete waste of time versus BEV. There could be a use case for heavy trucks, mining equipment etc where it is far from existing fossil fuels and can be generated on site. Plus in these uses the fuel cells are constantly on which improves efficiency and life.

Wouldn’t you say the same is true of eFuels? Isn’t the power required for production actually worse than just going electric? So if hydrogen and eFuels don’t make sense, and Europe won’t allow REx, then it seems there is no path for Ineos - they have to build off their current customer base and value proposition, which is about rugged capability and “adventure-ready.” They can’t just do some stupid BEV metro golf cart. They would be demolished. The only option would be hybrid or REx, but NOT built in Europe.

 

[Jeremy996]

Wouldn’t you say the same is true of eFuels? Isn’t the power required for production actually worse than just going electric? So if hydrogen and eFuels don’t make sense, and Europe won’t allow REx, then it seems there is no path for Ineos - they have to build off their current customer base and value proposition, which is about rugged capability and “adventure-ready.” They can’t just do some stupid BEV metro golf cart. They would be demolished. The only option would be hybrid or REx, but NOT built in Europe.

No, not really, many of the e-fuels use a different feedstock, like alcohol, so much of the embedded energy came from the sun via organic matter. Green hydrogen only really exists in the laboratory at the moment and there is still not a massive surplus of PV generated electricity to be stored/converted to H2.
These days a BEV can be assembled from a kit of bits and Ineos Automotive could make a hybrid using a BMW motor/generator and a battery, so I do not see them as dead in the water. The Fusilier has been suspended on the lack of a business case, not technical feasibility.

(I ran my old LR110CSW on recycled cooking oil for more than a decade; a bit of basic chemistry and some good quality filters and I should be able to run the Grenadier on bio-diesel, but not while it is still under warranty and worth more than the rest of my garage put together!)

 

[MRO]

Wouldn’t you say the same is true of eFuels? Isn’t the power required for production actually worse than just going electric? So if hydrogen and eFuels don’t make sense, and Europe won’t allow REx, then it seems there is no path for Ineos - they have to build off their current customer base and value proposition, which is about rugged capability and “adventure-ready.” They can’t just do some stupid BEV metro golf cart. They would be demolished. The only option would be hybrid or REx, but NOT built in Europe efuels only marginally better than fossil. They may not come from long term carbon storage but they still require fertilisers and displace food production elsewhere (massive leakage issue).

As you suggest efuels only marginally better than fossil if at all. They may not require drawing on long term carbon storage underground but still emit carbon through farming and fertiliser use and also displace food production elsewhere (massive leakage issue).

I think there is a product niche for them with BEV suitable for farms, mines, game reserves, park rangers etc where c 100 miles range is adequate for a day's use. I think they could do this with the grenadier if they did a 2 door chassis cab on the grenadier not quartermaster platform and without going lunatic on battery capacity, maybe 50kwh . If they did it, I think there are a lot more outside those use cases who would buy it. Would hope they could do that for around the same price as current list price.

 

[CrazyOldMan]

As you suggest efuels only marginally better than fossil if at all. They may not require drawing on long term carbon storage underground but still emit carbon through farming and fertiliser use and also displace food production elsewhere (massive leakage issue).

I think there is a product niche for them with BEV suitable for farms, mines, game reserves, park rangers etc where c 100 miles range is adequate for a day's use. I think they could do this with the grenadier if they did a 2 door chassis cab on the grenadier not quartermaster platform and without going lunatic on battery capacity, maybe 50kwh . If they did it, I think there are a lot more outside those use cases who would buy it. Would hope they could do that for around the same price as current list price.

But if it’s niche - it wouldn’t move the needle on fleet average fuel economy, would it? And then you run into the CAFE standards problem, don’t you? They wouldn’t even be close to target

 

[CrazyOldMan]

No, not really, many of the e-fuels use a different feedstock, like alcohol, so much of the embedded energy came from the sun via organic matter. Green hydrogen only really exists in the laboratory at the moment and there is still not a massive surplus of PV generated electricity to be stored/converted to H2.
These days a BEV can be assembled from a kit of bits and Ineos Automotive could make a hybrid using a BMW motor/generator and a battery, so I do not see them as dead in the water. The Fusilier has been suspended on the lack of a business case, not technical feasibility.

(I ran my old LR110CSW on recycled cooking oil for more than a decade; a bit of basic chemistry and some good quality filters and I should be able to run the Grenadier on bio-diesel, but not while it is still under warranty and worth more than the rest of my garage put together!)

So you think feasible at scale - enough to move Ineos in line with the 2035 ICE restriction? I have a really hard time believing that they could do this with eFuel- I’m not questioning technical feasibility. I’m just doubting that it’s a solution to the Europe problem. The problem is the all-or-nothing regulation - which seems to me that Hambach is only for export, and they need another low emission platform (REx or hybrid) - but produced OUTSIDE of Europe. Maybe I’m looking at it all wrong

 

[Max]

Maybe I’m looking at it all wrong

Well, you may be right with that thought...I have now read the posts checked with the crystal ball and the answer is a sausage

 

[DaveB]

I posted on here a couple of years ago that I thought it was inevitable that Ineos would sell it's automotive division eventually to one of the major brands.
Which ones might be interested in adding an old school, robust, low volume flagship to their line?
One suitable for non-european markets?

 

[CrazyOldMan]

Well, you may be right with that thought...I have now read the posts checked with the crystal ball and the answer is a sausage

At this point, this CLEARLY constitutes harassment. I will wake up screaming “Dave’s sausage,” and my wife will insist on couple’s therapy.

 

[CrazyOldMan]

I posted on here a couple of years ago that I thought it was inevitable that Ineos would sell it's automotive division eventually to one of the major brands.
Which ones might be interested in adding an old school, robust, low volume flagship to their line?
One suitable for non-european markets?
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Wouldn’t BMW make the most sense? VW Group as well, but NEVER with a BMW engine I suppose.

 

[DaveB]

Wouldn’t BMW make the most sense? VW Group as well, but NEVER with a BMW engine I suppose.

It is a BMW engine and they have manufacturing facilities in the US.
However both Toyota and Volkswagen also have US manufacturing.
I don't think it makes sense for Toyota but could sit well with VW
Then again BMW doesn't have a pickup or a real 4WD so could be an obvious addition.

 

[Max]

Then again BMW doesn't have a pickup or a real 4WD so could be an obvious addition.

Then again TATA doesn't have a pickup or a real 4WD? so could be an obvious addition.

 

[Max]

At this point, this CLEARLY constitutes harassment. I will wake up screaming “Dave’s sausage,” and my wife will insist on couple’s therapy.

Ok, that is done and dusted can we now just hide the sausage, please?

 

[DaveB]

Ok, that is done and dusted can we now just hide the sausage, please?

It was 6 degrees overnight here.
You can assume that job is done and dusted.

 

[CrazyOldMan]

It was 6 degrees overnight here.
You can assume that job is done and dusted.

Years of therapy - that’s what I’m facing

 

[Pat]

I did attend last week Thursday the Press conference in Goodwood and Lynn was stating that IA is putting on hold the GTM for the Fusilier and at the same time she did confirm that the electric car is not off the table. Just keeping it all open and no real commitment. Talking to George he underlines that they are on the path to become a profitable automotive company and not just a company built on passion. I think the US market is helping a lot to balance some weakness in Europe due to regulations and two important price increases within six months.