You now can’t use the Smartpass consumer output

AWo · Jan 21, 2024

emax said:
Isn't that the opposite of how they designed the system?

As far as I understand it, the idea is that the aux battery should support the main battery when the charge is low and therefore no consumers should be connected to the aux battery.

If that is the case, then it is possible to suck both batteries empty, as at one point the aux battery can't support the main battery anymore but power consumption will continue. It is nearly the same as simply connecting two batteries in parallel. That gives you more overall power you can consume and increases the use time, but if it is really the case that the power consumers are always use the starter battery....ui. How should the loader protect the starter battery from being discharged? That would only be possible by measuring the available power of the aux battery and how long it can still support the starter battery. If it gets too low the loader must cut of power consumers. Is that the case? If not, you can only protect your starter battery from being discharged by using smart devices which cut off themselves when they sense a certain volt level....

However, from the purchase and mounting point of view it is clever, as you can use the same cabling for cars with or without aux battery.

I would always recommend a system where you may suck the aux battery empty, but never the starter battery....especially after my visit in Lappland a few weeks ago where we stood for the night at less than -30°C...I don't want to imagine standing there in the middle of nowhere and my engine doesn't crank in the morning because I had to use the aux heater during the night....

AWo

bakepl · Jan 21, 2024

das mo said:
Yes.

It s an Engel SB30 - SB30 manual

View attachment 7840614

Engel suggests to connect the fridge directly to tze second battery (page 11), but with the little info given by Ineos I was going for the 12V plug last summer.

With all the electrics powering up before the car starts, it would be questionable if any battery would be capable of starting at the Engels 9.6v low volt cut off.

If running off the Aux, better to install your own device for a higher cut out than 9.6v would be my thought. I have installed the Victron smart battery protect for this reason and you can select your own low volt cut off - much higher than 9.6v. 9.6v resting is well under 50% SOC and damaging the battery.

AWo · Jan 21, 2024

bakepl said:
With all the electrics powering up before the car starts, it would be questionable if any battery would be capable of starting at the Engels 9.6v low volt cut off.

If running off the Aux, better to install your own device for a higher cut out than 9.6v would be my thought. I have installed the Victron smart battery protect for this reason and you can select your own low volt cut off - much higher than 9.6v. 9.6v resting is well under 50% SOC and damaging the battery.

Take into consideration that after the cut off at 9.6 V (while running and sucking power) the voltage of a battery recovers.

A 12 V lead acid battery is dead when the resting voltage is below 10.5 V. However, when consumers are active the voltage can be pulled below 10.5 V. When the engine cranks it can go down to 9 or 8 V.

What I'm trying to say is, when the Engel cuts off at 9.6 V it doesn't mean the battery is dead. It will recover. As long as the resting voltage is above 10.5 V it should be fine. I need to add here that the resting voltage is not the only indicator of the health of the battery. If the battery is really weak, weared or old, the voltage can drop too fast when power is consumed. What I mentioned above applies to a healthy battery.

AWo

emax · Jan 21, 2024

AWo said:
What I'm trying to say is, when the Engel cuts off at 9.6 V it doesn't mean the battery is dead. It will recover. As long as the resting voltage is above 10.5 V it should be fine.

If you have a high load on a battery, the effect you have described may occur. Then, a battery dropped down to a low voltage because the load was so high.

But the Engel fridge consumes only around 30 Watts while the compressor is running, this is 2.5 Amps. A 2.5 Amps load on a 105 Ah Battery will slowly drain the battery down do 9.6 V but not drop the voltage due to a high load but due to a continuing drain.

Then, If the fridge cuts off, the battery might recover a little bit, but hardly to above 11 V: battery dead.

Tazzieman · Jan 22, 2024

I'm leaving the aux battery wired as is , a Noco Li jump starter next to it and using a 120AH Li unit in a battery box for consuming power when not driving. Easily charged with solar , alternator , mains power.
There is a big trend to portable solutions ; Bluetti etc being all in one units with inverters and so on.

AWo · Jan 22, 2024

emax said:
If you have a high load on a battery, the effect you have described may occur. Then, a battery dropped down to a low voltage because the load was so high.

But the Engel fridge consumes only around 30 Watts while the compressor is running, this is 2.5 Amps. A 2.5 Amps load on a 105 Ah Battery will slowly drain the battery down do 9.6 V but not drop the voltage due to a high load but due to a continuing drain.

Then, If the fridge cuts off, the battery might recover a little bit, but hardly to above 11 V: battery dead.

You're right. I didn't took that into consideration.

AWo

das mo · Jan 22, 2024

Tazzieman said:
I'm leaving the aux battery wired as is , a Noco Li jump starter next to it and using a 120AH Li unit in a battery box for consuming power when not driving. Easily charged with solar , alternator , mains power.
There is a big trend to portable solutions ; Bluetti etc being all in one units with inverters and so on.

This is what I started looking into now as well.

Have the 250SE sitting at home, but all in all investing time and relying on something build around the Ineos setup seems dangerous as long as we know so little.

Have some solar panels to load / charge the Gren via 250 while camping / use same panels to maintain a portable power station for the fam to charge phones, cam, … feels safe.

But after all solving something I hoped the 2 battery setup can handle in its own.

Tazzieman · Jan 22, 2024

das mo said:
This is what I started looking into now as well.

Have the 250SE sitting at home, but all in all investing time and relying on something build around the Ineos setup seems dangerous as long as we know so little.

Have some solar panels to load charge the Gren via 250 while camping / use same panels to maintain a portable power station for the fam to charge phones, cam, … feels safe.

But after all solving something I hoped the 2 battery setup can handle in its own.

I'm slightly concerned about a Lithium under the seat , as all sorts of other gear gets piled on top and if it did decide to go...I know , a very unlikely scenario but one which might upset an insurance company.
The portable battery box lives behind the front seat and can be grabbed quickly if fumes are detected.

KDJDGrenadier · Jan 22, 2024

Tazzieman said:
I'm slightly concerned about a Lithium under the seat , as all sorts of other gear gets piled on top and if it did decide to go...I know , a very unlikely scenario but one which might upset an insurance company.
The portable battery box lives behind the front seat and can be grabbed quickly if fumes are detected.

LifeP04 is stable compared to the old lithium batteries. I think they are very safe but you wouldn't want to short it out and after that fire on stockton beach i am a bit nervous about modifying the existing setup. FYI i did install a D250SE to use solar but have not connected any solar to it as yet.

Tazzieman · Jan 22, 2024

KDJDGrenadier said:
LifeP04 is stable compared to the old lithium batteries. I think they are very safe but you wouldn't want to short it out and after that fire on stockton beach i am a bit nervous about modifying the existing setup. FYI i did install a D250SE to use solar but have not connected any solar to it as yet.

Yes I'm aware that the later batteries are more stable however I still don't completely trust them!
In a tip/rollover situation they might short , I don't know.

frankkk · Feb 27, 2024

I remember my first post on the subject, back when details of the system became known. My bottom line at the time was "rubbish" and totally unsuitable for an overlanding vehicle.

After reading quite a bit of that thread here, it seems, that a lot of fluff is going on about that dual battery setup and no satisfactory solution. My bottom line remains the same: rubbish, the setup ex works.

A crank battery cannot reliably supply a relatively constant current, as required by a fridge under hot temperatures for instance, because it's not made for it. On the other hand, a battery that is made for an application with a constant draw of current can only be used a number of times for cranking, before it fails. One of the few batteries that can cope with both, is a so called NATO Block, as used in all military vehicles. A square and heavy 100AH lump @ $700,- a piece plus tax.

Unfortunately, INEOS has not designed the vehicle with military applications in mind, otherwise, they would have made room in the engine bay for a NATO Block, and ideally for a second one n the back.

There are two solutions to the problem: 1. the preferable, discard, i.e. do not order the dual battery setup and get a qualified electrician to install the second (AGM) battery with a solenoid and, if you are looking for maximum self sufficiency, get a solar panel and a charge regulator installed. 2. A monitored charge management system, maybe combined with a solar panel, the "VICTRON" solution...that might have been described in detail somewhere else on the forum.

With the second option you have a reliable workaround if you have the dual battery system ex works. The first option is preferable in my view, because you are keeping the vehicle electrics separate from your auxiliaries, a proven setup, provided you use quality components.

Best of luck with the sparkies..

DenisM · Feb 28, 2024

Another aspect which I had not thought much about until I read an article recently about the correct charging current for lead acid batteries. Ctek state that a combination of the Smartpass 120S and the D250SE can produce a charge rate up to 140A. This is way above the recommended max of 25% of the Amp Hr capacity...which for the Molle EFB of about 100AH should be no more than 25 amps!

TheDocAUS · Feb 28, 2024

DenisM said:
Another aspect which I had not thought much about until I read an article recently about the correct charging current for lead acid batteries. Ctek state that a combination of the Smartpass 120S and the D250SE can produce a charge rate up to 140A. This is way above the recommended max of 25% of the Amp Hr capacity...which for the Molle EFB of about 100AH should be no more than 25 amps!

It should not be an issue if you select the battery chemistry correctly on the units. This should be taken into account in each charging profile. However the 250SE/120S manual does seem silent on the issue. The 120S supplementary manual does not help either.

The charger should be smart enough to work out what charge the battery can take and adjust the charging current accordingly. In any case it also monitors battery temperature, if the battery gets too hot it should reduce the charge rate.

So far I have not seen a charge rate higher than 25 amps using the 120S alone. I often look at this screen for extended periods to see what is going on. Moreover, I have a battery monitor on the aux battery and nothing strange is appearing, so far, in the logs - and I have used these battery monitors for years on battery boxes and the Nissan Patrol.

While the BLE battery monitor is not exact, after years of use, I have found them to provide lots of great information. One downside is the State of Charge is just an estimate based on the battery's voltage.

bnebenda · Mar 5, 2024

According to CTEK the new requirement for a 2A fuse in the ground connection has the following reason:

Regarding the 2A fuse on the ground cable it protect the cable and the internal internal PCB board (extra safety) if an internal fault occurs.

I decided not to take any risks and retrofitted an extra ATO fuse (follow green markings on the picture):

minidok · Mar 5, 2024

bnebenda said:
According to CTEK the new requirement for a 2A fuse in the ground connection has the following reason:

Regarding the 2A fuse on the ground cable it protect the cable and the internal internal PCB board (extra safety) if an internal fault occurs.

I decided not to take any risks and retrofitted an extra ATO fuse (follow green markings on the picture):

View attachment 7846816

To what does this new requirement refer to? And who did rise this?
Is this according to the ctek manual?

bakepl · Mar 5, 2024

DenisM said:
Another aspect which I had not thought much about until I read an article recently about the correct charging current for lead acid batteries. Ctek state that a combination of the Smartpass 120S and the D250SE can produce a charge rate up to 140A. This is way above the recommended max of 25% of the Amp Hr capacity...which for the Molle EFB of about 100AH should be no more than 25 amps!

I asked Ctek a similar question - question/answer as follows:

Q: My auxiliary battery is 110ah wet cell, should I be just using the D250SE with 20amps out from the alternator rather than a combination of the D250 with the Smartpass 120 that has the potential of 140amps from the alternator? Will the combination of the two devices be too much charge for the single 110ah aux battery and I risk damaging it?

A: There is absolutely no risk of battery damage if you have a smart pass. The smartpass is mainly intended if you have very large consumers connected to your service battery. It compensates for the large transients that occur. If you only have light consumers such as lighting, etc., you can get by with a D250SE.

bnebenda · Mar 5, 2024

minidok said:
To what does this new requirement refer to? And who did rise this?
Is this according to the ctek manual?

Seen here (was discussed earlier in this thread) https://www.ctek.com/product-safety-notice-smartpass (or more specifically here https://www.ctek.com/storage/35056E...dfe9f7f91afd27/SMARTPASS MANUAL AMENDMENT.pdf )

bnebenda · Mar 5, 2024

bakepl said:
I asked Ctek a similar question - question/answer as follows:

Q: My auxiliary battery is 110ah wet cell, should I be just using the D250SE with 20amps out from the alternator rather than a combination of the D250 with the Smartpass 120 that has the potential of 140amps from the alternator? Will the combination of the two devices be too much charge for the single 110ah aux battery and I risk damaging it?

A: There is absolutely no risk of battery damage if you have a smart pass. The smartpass is mainly intended if you have very large consumers connected to your service battery. It compensates for the large transients that occur. If you only have light consumers such as lighting, etc., you can get by with a D250SE.

I have also changed the electrics quite a bit. Here's my (probably incomplete) list:

1 Move the NATO Plug to 7 stud busbar (by replacing the unused 60A ZCASE with a new 8mm 350A ZCASE Fuse
2. Delete the link bewtween the 5 stud and 7 stud busbar and reuse the freed connection to connect the Smartpass input
3. Added a connection from the output of the Smartpass (before the 300A Megafuse) to a 220A Victron Battery Protect Input (this way the battery protect input has a fused connection to the 2nd battery, the output of the Smartpass is also fused because the input has a 300A fused connection to the starter battery)
4. Added a 225 ZCASE fused connection form the battery protect to the 5 stud busbar (exchanged the 10mm stud with an 8 mm stud and filled up the unused with another 8 mm stud)
5. Removed the wire on the back of the interior fusebox Accessory relay and connected it to the 5 stud busbar

Added own fuse boxes to the starter, second battery and 5 stud busbar
Connected AC charger to starter and 2nd battery
Connected solar charger to second battery
Added shunts to second battery ground and solar charger ground in order to monitor 2nd battery and solar charging
Added other consumers to the protected fusebox (USB chargers, interrior light, compressor, Eberspächer air heater drawing fuelf from the car tank
Routed the fuel gauge connection over switched that will switch the gauge to the car in motor is runnung (using the contect 15) or to the battery and tank monitor if the engine is stopped.
I can then use an alarm level to deactivated the heater if I'm running (too) low on fuel.

On my todo list: Add a switch to power the NATO plug relay from the NATO plug voltage (using diodes to decouple the car's signal and the NATO plug). This way I can jump start the car using the NATO plug input.

Logsplitter · Mar 5, 2024

TheDocAUS said:
It should not be an issue if you select the battery chemistry correctly on the units. This should be taken into account in each charging profile. However the 250SE/120S manual does seem silent on the issue. The 120S supplementary manual does not help either.

The charger should be smart enough to work out what charge the battery can take and adjust the charging current accordingly. In any case it also monitors battery temperature, if the battery gets too hot it should reduce the charge rate.

So far I have not seen a charge rate higher than 25 amps using the 120S alone. I often look at this screen for extended periods to see what is going on. Moreover, I have a battery monitor on the aux battery and nothing strange is appearing, so far, in the logs - and I have used these battery monitors for years on battery boxes and the Nissan Patrol.

While the BLE battery monitor is not exact, after years of use, I have found them to provide lots of great information. One downside is the State of Charge is just an estimate based on the battery's voltage.

I have the dual battery system and smartpass and on the 13jan I turned the ignition on and my battery percentage was O% then started the Grenadier and a had a 69 A charge rate according to the screen.
Could be just a software fault I guess as started fine.

minidok · Mar 5, 2024

bnebenda said:
Seen here (was discussed earlier in this thread) https://www.ctek.com/product-safety-notice-smartpass (or more specifically here https://www.ctek.com/storage/35056E3351E0507301C82AF5A7FEB504C9C9C7EBF8FDD48F9FFBEF4A9F969F6C/e8f44f956b8145308d0f92f13d01fbf8/pdf/media/84d2a6a0f7144bbf9fdfe9f7f91afd27/SMARTPASS MANUAL AMENDMENT.pdf )

thanks bnebenda, see what you say:

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You now can’t use the Smartpass consumer output

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