(The battery and monitor thread )Car dead in the middle of the woods

das mo · Jul 23, 2023

Hi all.

Car is dead.

Battery was at 50% 2 hours back.
We now packed all together and car does not start.

Is there an Ineos support hotline I can call on a Sunday?

Thanks

MrMike · Aug 5, 2023

DCPU said:
So how are they completing the circuit back to the battery if not using this terminal?

They aren't, they are using the body (possibly) or chassis as the earth. That may be the issue. Power from the positive pole on the battery.

emax · Aug 5, 2023

Even if they are "grounded" to the body (which is common), the battery is the last terminal to which the current eventually flows. The body "collects" all the currents from various devices and eventually the current flows back to the battery via the battery cable, which is also connected to the body.

So everything must finally go through the terminal that @DCPU correctly pointed out.

das mo · Aug 5, 2023

MrMike said:
They aren't, they are using the body (possibly) as the earth. That may be the issue.

Ok.

An indication for consumers bypassing the Ineos software monitoring would be load status of battery monitors decreasing faster than the Ineos on screen one, right? Which is not the case so far, but I will keep observing.

MrMike · Aug 5, 2023

emax said:
Even if they are "grounded" to the body (which is common), the battery is the last terminal to which the current eventually flows. The body "collects" all the currents from various devices and eventually the current flows back to the battery via the battery cable, which is also connected to the body.

So everything must finally go through the terminal that @DCPU correctly pointed out.

That is correct but the reading is from the shunt, if the earth wire is direct to the earth pole on the battery and not the common on the shunt it won't read correctly. It is effectively bypassing the shunt.

MrMike · Aug 5, 2023

DCPU said:
So how are they completing the circuit back to the battery if not using this terminal?

I don't know, but this is the only explanation. I've wired up a lot of these and the only way you get disparity is if the negative is being bypassed somewhere. Or there is a wiring issue. Shunts just read current flow in and out, you do get inaccurate readings from poor quality shunts but this seems to be way off.

emax · Aug 5, 2023

das mo said:
Installed battery monitor to both batteries to collect some insight.

Initial numbers are:

- Ineos load status 78%
- Main battery monitor 70%
- Secondary battery monitor 30%

Lets see if it starts to make sense at some point.

That doesn't tell you anything if you don't know what the value is based on. If it's based only on voltage, it can't be correct at all, because that would require the monitor to know the battery's characteristics, age, charge/discharge cycles, type of chemistry, and a few other things (such as battery temperature).

True monitoring also requires knowledge of the Ri - internal resistance - of the battery, current monitoring and the ability to total amp-hours, as well as knowledge of the battery's rated capacity.

If voltage were suitable as the only monitoring parameter, a $1.00 voltmeter from Aliexpress ...

...would suffice. It would then be up to the user to interpret the voltage. And that is exactly what I described above: Without knowledge of the DUT (for @Jean Mercier: Device Under test), it's all guesswork, since no one knows what assumptions the monitor manufacturers have made.

emax · Aug 5, 2023

Although I can only guess, I would say that the sensor marked here is not a shunt, but a Hall sensor for current.

MarkH · Aug 5, 2023

DCPU said:
There seems a huge disparity in what the actual voltage readings mean?

The battery monitor reads 12.04v and interprets this as 91%, green, battery OK; but your lookup table (not dissimilar to others) would put that voltage at under 25%.

Am I seeing this right?

Yes the battery monitor may need to be calibrated, usually done by fully charging the batteries to float first. This should trigger the auto calibration to 100%, if it has this feature.

MrMike · Aug 5, 2023

emax said:
Although I can only guess, I would say that the sensor marked here is not a shunt, but a Hall sensor for current.

View attachment 7822409

From my understanding Hall Effect sensors are less accurate than shunts, could this be why there is disparity?

Lollo050968 · Aug 5, 2023

Done my battery monitor today, looks like that smartpass is doing what he should do.
First is Aux. battery, second starter
Cockpit shows 94%

emax · Aug 5, 2023

CB said:
Would something like this work as a replacement for the service battery? A lithium Ion starting/deep cycle battery.

DL+ 12v 135Ah Dual Purpose 1000CCA Starter Battery Plus Deep Cycle Performance

DL+ 12v 135Ah LiFePO4 Golf Cart & 1000CCA Automotive Battery. Free charger with 11 year warranty. 135 Amp Hours of deep cycle Dakota Lithium performance.

dakotalithium.com

I would NEVER EVER install a lithium battery other than a LiFePo in a car. Even if it is labelled "NASA", "Porsche", "Gucci" or "Rolls Royce". Not even from Bosch. Never.

MrMike · Aug 5, 2023

emax said:
I would NEVER EVER install a lithium battery other than a LiFePo in a car. Even if it is labelled "NASA", "Porsche", "Gucci" or "Rolls Royce". Not even from Bosch. Never.

View attachment 7822415

Thermal runaway x 200+ EV vehicles = a large insurance increase in premiums for shipping and motor vehicle manufacturers

das mo · Aug 5, 2023

emax said:
That doesn't tell you anything if you don't know what the value is based on. If it's based only on voltage, it can't be correct at all, because that would require the monitor to know the battery's characteristics, age, charge/discharge cycles, type of chemistry, and a few other things (such as battery temperature).

True monitoring also requires knowledge of the Ri - internal resistance - of the battery, current monitoring and the ability to total amp-hours, as well as knowledge of the battery's rated capacity.

If voltage were suitable as the only monitoring parameter, a $1.00 voltmeter from Aliexpress ...

View attachment 7822407
...would suffice. It would then be up to the user to interpret the voltage. And that is exactly what I described above: Without knowledge of the DUT (for @Jean Mercier: Device Under test), it's all guesswork, since no one knows what assumptions the monitor manufacturers have made.

I totally understand that my 70€ monitoring setup will not return absolute laboratory grade numbers, but hopefully allow me to understand when batteries drain and charge while camping, parking and driving. Simply to understand overall behaviour versus Ineos plans.

If that is understood, I feel I can plan and adapt to my needs.

emax · Aug 5, 2023

MrMike said:
From my understanding Hall Effect sensors are less accurate than shunts, could this be why there is disparity?

Both have their pros and cons.

A Hall sensor responds to magnetic fields in general, and there are a lot of them in a car. The quality of such sensors varies widely, but in professional applications they are accurate enough for the purpose. Professional automotive sensors are a different universe than $2 sensors from aliexpress. They cost much more and usually compensate for external noise.

A shunt is, after all, a resistor. Like any resistor, it burns energy and develops heat. The result is a lower voltage "behind" the shunt.

If you choose a higher resistance for the shunt, the effects get worse - but the accuracy increases. If you choose a lower resistance, the effects are mitigated, but the result is less accurate.

For monitoring a 100 Ah battery, a Hall sensor is accurate enough, I think. An noise error of 10,20,30 mA will probably even out over time. As opposed to shunts, Hall sensors do not require cutting a cable to install them. This is always a critical factor in high current applications. So imho the advantages of Hall sensors outweigh their disadvantages.

wording

emax · Aug 5, 2023

das mo said:
I totally understand that my 70€ monitoring setup will not return absolute laboratory grade numbers, but hopefully allow me to understand when batteries drain and charge while camping, parking and driving. Simply to understand overall behaviour versus Ineos plans.

If that is understood, I feel I can plan and adapt to my needs.

That's completely ok, and it wasn't criticism. I think I know you well enough to assume, that you know what you're doing. ;-)

But I would very likely just install two cheapo voltmeters because they don't 'interpret' the voltage to their liking. A voltage would tell me more than a percentage. But that's just me. And I must admit that I'm spoiled by my RC-aircraft history. ;-)

If you want Bluetooth, perhaps something like this. But I've no idea if this is any good:

https://de.aliexpress.com/item/1005004705024149.html

You'd need two of them.

But may be your monitor can display the voltages as well?

das mo · Aug 5, 2023

emax said:
That's completely ok, and it wasn't criticism. I think I know you well enough to assume, that you know what you're doing. ;-)

But I would very likely just install two cheapo voltmeters because they don't 'interpret' the voltage to their liking. A voltage would tell me more than a percentage. But that's just me. And I must admit that I'm spoiled by my RC-aircraft history. ;-)

If you want Bluetooth, perhaps something like this. But I've no idea if this is any good:

https://de.aliexpress.com/item/1005004705024149.html

You'd need two of them.

But may be your monitor can display the voltages as well?

It is pretty much the ones I installed.

They measure voltage as shown in the screenshots above. The % is just a gimmick.

I also get a visual of the log of up to 15 days.

DCPU · Aug 5, 2023

MrMike said:
I don't know, but this is the only explanation. I've wired up a lot of these and the only way you get disparity is if the negative is being bypassed somewhere. Or there is a wiring issue. Shunts just read current flow in and out, you do get inaccurate readings from poor quality shunts but this seems to be way off.

Are we looking at the same thing?

There's only one actual voltage quoted. Is the comparison between two completely different %?

emax · Aug 5, 2023

Didn't know you can read the voltage.

Voltage rocks.

emax · Aug 5, 2023

das mo said:
They measure voltage as shown in the screenshots above.

Aha, I missed that.

Burki · Aug 5, 2023

Lollo050968 said:
Done my battery monitor today, looks like that smartpass is doing what he should do.
First is Aux. battery, second starter
Cockpit shows 94%

Looks very fine, I like it.

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