Diesel Diesel Oil Specification Thread (B57 Engines)

DCPU · May 24, 2023

I've copied this post over from the "Oil Check" thread:

Arkaig said:
The Petronas Syntium 0W30 DG engine oil apparently is available to order as a specific INEOS part through any INEOS Sales or Service Agent and supplied from the Belgium Parts Centre - sorry I don't have the specific part number. Sounds expensive to me buying oil in this manner, I supect buying oil meeting SAE 0/5W-30 BMW LL-12FE for diesel, SAE 0/5W-20 BMW LL-17FE for petrol will be cheaper.

If I'm reading that right, it's 7000 CP - which is a Citroën Peugeot specified oil.

Two questions:

1. Are they using that in the Grenadier?
2. Is that an official Ineos agent/service centre?

bakepl · May 24, 2023

b58 said:
LL12FE has its purpose in its name. FE stands for fuel economy. And that is what LL12 is all about. LL12 is the same like LL04 but with lower HTHS, and thus lower hot and cold viscosity. This aims at less friction force coming from oil thickness which effects fuel economy.
One of the LL12 specs is DPF and OPF-compatibility guaranteed by low-ash formulation. This always had been a demand of LL04 as well. Both LL12FE and LL04 are mostly low- and mid-SAPS oils. Their sulfated ash content is < 0,8%.

To sum it up, LL04 is fully compatible to the Gren's engines, but according to it's higher HTHS, viscosity and thickness it effects fuel economy. LL04 oils mostly have 5W-30 viscosity, LL12 mostly is 0W30. Tbh, the idea of fuel consumption only affects testing benches, not real road conditions. The KV100 between LL12 and LL04 oils does not differ too much. The effect won't even be measurable in practical.

Thanks for the summary, most welcome. Any reason for the LL12FE not being recommended for engines with 2 or more turbos?

b58 · May 24, 2023

This actually has no technical background. It's nothing more than marketing from the oil manufacturers. According to this, from the number of turbochargers it should be possible to draw conclusions about the engine output and the associated mechanical load on the engine due to the higher output. But this is theoretical only. Single turbo engines can have very high specific outputs as well. There are several examples out there. It's not true that only twin turbo engines have high mechanical load on the engine.

Low HTHS, low thickness and high engine output are in themselves a conflict of goals. However, low frictional resistance caused by the oil is a mandatory requirement of modern oil formulations in order to meet exhaust and emissions regulations.
In the past, high engine performance was associated with high viscosities. Think of 10W-60 in BMW M engines. 10W-60 is a nightmare when it comes to (laboratory!) fuel economy effects. OEMs need to meet strict exhaust gas and emission regulations. In order to achieve the lowest possible measured values, the frictional resistance and thus the specific fuel consumption of the engine are reduced. The loss of mechanical resistance due to low viscosity oil is being compensated by using EP and AW additives.

bakepl · May 24, 2023

b58 said:
This actually has no technical background. It's nothing more than marketing from the oil manufacturers. According to this, from the number of turbochargers it should be possible to draw conclusions about the engine output and the associated mechanical load on the engine due to the higher output. But this is theoretical only. Single turbo engines can have very high specific outputs as well. There are several examples out there. It's not true that only twin turbo engines have high mechanical load on the engine.

Low HTHS, low thickness and high engine output are in themselves a conflict of goals. However, low frictional resistance caused by the oil is a mandatory requirement of modern oil formulations in order to meet exhaust and emissions regulations.
In the past, high engine performance was associated with high viscosities. Think of 10W-60 in BMW M engines. 10W-60 is a nightmare when it comes to (laboratory!) fuel economy effects. OEMs need to meet strict exhaust gas and emission regulations. In order to achieve the lowest possible measured values, the frictional resistance and thus the specific fuel consumption of the engine are reduced. The loss of mechanical resistance due to low viscosity oil is being compensated by using EP and AW additives.

Ok I think I understand now... is it right to think there is a compromise between fuel efficiency and emissions/compliance v longevity of the mechanical components? I see some engineers/engine rebuilders where say 0w30 is the manufacturers recommendation will recommend 5w40 for longevity of the engine where the former has failed early in it's life i.e bearings?

b58 · May 24, 2023

There's no mechanical engine damage caused by modern oil formulations used in modern engines. Oil manufacturers do compensate the lubrication loss of the low HTHS/viscosity by using EP/AW additives. These modern oil formulations do work pretty good. 24h hours race of Le Mans is being run on 0W-20. These modern oils mostly use mPAO as base oil, whereas earlier common oils were made out of HC base oils only. What is more, there's less viscosity index improvers in these modern oils, which basically means less polymeres in the oil that leads to more durable mPAOs together with EP/AW-additives, such as molybdenum and boron - or titanium which is cheaper and less effective, but part of Castrol's marketing plan.

But it also belongs to the truth that It has now become more important to not exceed the interval of the oil. The longer the interval of each oil change becomes, the more fuel is being carried into the oil sump. Especially petrol engines do suffer from too high petrol concentrations in the engine oil. Think of using brake cleaner to remove oil spills. Brake cleaner is a light petrol liquid. Petrol solubilizes oil. You don't want to effect the oil in your engine oil sump by petrol.
The lower the viscosity of the oil, the less it can withstand the fuel entry. Keep this in mind when using low viscosity oils such as LL12.

DCPU · May 24, 2023

b58 said:
This actually has no technical background. It's nothing more than marketing from the oil manufacturers. According to this, from the number of turbochargers it should be possible to draw conclusions about the engine output and the associated mechanical load on the engine due to the higher output. But this is theoretical only. Single turbo engines can have very high specific outputs as well. There are several examples out there. It's not true that only twin turbo engines have high mechanical load on the engine.

The simple question jumping out to me is, what oil do these oil manufacturers recommended that meet the requirements of the BMW standard AND are suitable for multiple turbo engines?

b58 · May 24, 2023

I don't know. I can't speak for marketing of oil manufacturers. I just can explain technical background.

It's not like you'd grab one particular shelf if you have a bi-turbo engine and another if you have a tri-turbocharger. Oh, the BMW G11 750d has four (!) turbochargers. Then we can not use the biturbo oil.

No. These are fairy tales.

DCPU · May 24, 2023

b58 said:
I don't know.

Thanks, the other stuff is interesting but that's the question I'm looking for anyone, or ideally Ineos to answer.

BAS-Remaps · Jul 4, 2023

Its may be been shown before but I paste here for info a reply from Petronas today.
Intresting the spec still says not for diesel engines with 2, or 3 turbo chargers yet the bonnect sticker reccomends the spec 0w-30 BMW LL-12 FE

So regardless of the published marketing bumf Ill use the spec what the bonnet sticker reccomends.

Hi Pete,
Thanks for your enquiry.

I have actually had this enquiry earlier this year.

“I have an answer for you. Syntium DG is a factory first fill product.

Unfortunately, we don't have it in our open market range. Which doesn't make sense to me.

BMW Specific Longlife 12 FE Engine Oil | Opie Oils”

Petronas supply for the first fill but then don’t sell it on the open market.

I can only apologise Pete.

The link above takes you to Opie who have a range of BMW LL-12 FE 0w-30 oils.

For your reference here’s the definition of BMW LL-12 FE,

BMW Longlife-12 FE (Diesel)

BMW & Mini Longlife12FE is an SAE 5W-20, or xW-30 viscosity fuel efficient, mid-SAPS, service fill crankcase Group IV oil for petrol and light duty diesel engines from circa 2013 onwards. Based on ACEA C2-12, plus BMW engine durability, wear & sludge tests, with SASH of 1.5% max, TBN of 6.0 mgKOH/g, NOAK 135 max, and 2.9 min HTHS viscosity, cP. Not for diesel engines with 2, or 3 turbo chargers. Can be used in gasoline engines, but only within the EC, Norway, Switzerland & Liechtenstein. Only allowed for S55, or S63, M engines within the EC/other countries as above. Updated in 2018

Regards,
Jason

DCPU · Jul 4, 2023

Pete - It may not surprise you to know it was me that made the earlier enquiry with Jason.

I would like to believe that the Owner's Manual (and bonnet sticker) is correct with regard to the oil specification; but there's a lack of due diligence in recommending an oil (Petronas) that is impossible to get, that together with the warning about multi turbo use and enough other errors in the Owner's Manual, means it should be prudent to at least ask Ineos to confirm this specification is correct.

Getting an answer from Ineos is near impossible and when you do get one via Customer Services it's usually rubbish (see various other threads).

Tinki · Jul 10, 2023

Hello Team ,
Had ordered a service kit for my Diesel Gren ages ago for my first oil change . My agent faced the same problems (as we did ) with the petronas oil not being available for sale .
Today i picked up these parts from the agent . Not sure if other agents will be going with different brand , apparently Ineos provided a list of approved oils . Oil filter with out surprise is a BMW part .

bigleonski · Jul 10, 2023

Tinki said:
Hello Team ,
Had ordered a service kit for my Diesel Gren ages ago for my first oil change . My agent faced the same problems (as we did ) with the petronas oil not being available for sale .
Today i picked up these parts from the agent . Not sure if other agents will be going with different brand , apparently Ineos provided a list of approved oils . Oil filter with out surprise is a BMW part .
View attachment 7819576 View attachment 7819577 View attachment 7819578

Interesting that Ineos note “made in Germany” yet BMW note “Tunisia”.

Maybe IA are just talking about the sticker.

DenisM · Jul 10, 2023

Tinki said:
Hello Team ,
Had ordered a service kit for my Diesel Gren ages ago for my first oil change . My agent faced the same problems (as we did ) with the petronas oil not being available for sale .
Today i picked up these parts from the agent . Not sure if other agents will be going with different brand , apparently Ineos provided a list of approved oils . Oil filter with out surprise is a BMW part .
View attachment 7819576 View attachment 7819577 View attachment 7819578

Appreciate you posting this, it is most useful!
Can you advise pls as to the contents of the box labelled "kit"? e.g. paper filter... does it include gaskets /O-rings/ instructions?
Also, were you able to obtain from the dealer the list of "approved" oils?
One final question... when is the first oil change required? 1500km or 15000km?
Thanks in advance

Tinki · Jul 11, 2023

DenisM said:
Appreciate you posting this, it is most useful!
Can you advise pls as to the contents of the box labelled "kit"? e.g. paper filter... does it include gaskets /O-rings/ instructions?
Also, were you able to obtain from the dealer the list of "approved" oils?
One final question... when is the first oil change required? 1500km or 15000km?
Thanks in advance

Hello Denis ,
Kit includes filter , copper crush washer for sump plug and o ring for filter housing.

Not sure when the first oil change is due to be honest but it is a big interval (someone will remember for sure and will post ) .

Tinki · Jul 11, 2023

First oil change for the Gren is in the books . 1000 miles deayed from when i wanted to do it but anyway . As fas as oil changes go it’s pretty easy like any bmw . Tools you will need :

Torque wrench for the housing 25Nm if you believe in these things .
Extension of your choosing ( housing is pretty deep )
32mm socket for oil housing (any 32mm will do)
17mm socket for the sump plug
Wrench to turn them with
Pick to get the o ring out of the filter housing
You may need also a universal joint the housing is at an odd angle and your extension might hit the fuse box on the side of the wing ( i got away with it with wobble extension ) .

Housing location :

if your are doing your own oil expect to burn your hand on the engine. Don't ask me how i know .

Oil filter and housing out of the car

Factory filter . Same marking exactly as the one in the kit i posted above .

Exchange o-ring on housing ( use a pick easiest way i found )

Then place housing back and torque to 25Nm .

The sump plug is 17mm . Sorry forgot to check the thread pitch i know someone will ask . My bad .

When taking the sump plug make sure the crash washer comes with it . The factory uses an aluminium one instead of copper and it usually stays on the pan . Make sure to remove it before putting the sump plug back in .

Oil fill for the diesel is 7.1L at least that is how much i put in it and it seemed to like it .

When measuring the oil level the car likes all doors to be closed , on level ground , and in park or neutral .

It revs a bit up to 1.1k and takes about 40 seconds .

Thats it .
Sorry not a lot of pictures of the underside because i got caught in the rain . Classic .
Hope this helps .

Krabby · Jul 11, 2023

Awesome write up. Thanks!

emax · Jul 11, 2023

Tinki said:
First oil change for the Gren is in the books . 1000 miles deayed from when i wanted to do it but anyway . As fas as oil changes go it’s pretty easy like any bmw . Tools you will need :
View attachment 7819679
Torque wrench for the housing 25Nm if you believe in these things .
Extension of your choosing ( housing is pretty deep )
32mm socket for oil housing (any 32mm will do)
17mm socket for the sump plug
Wrench to turn them with
Pick to get the o ring out of the filter housing
You may need also a universal joint the housing is at an odd angle and your extension might hit the fuse box on the side of the wing ( i got away with it with wobble extension ) .

Housing location :
View attachment 7819680
if your are doing your own oil expect to burn your hand on the engine. Don't ask me how i know .
View attachment 7819681
Oil filter and housing out of the car
View attachment 7819682
Factory filter . Same marking exactly as the one in the kit i posted above .
View attachment 7819683
Exchange o-ring on housing ( use a pick easiest way i found )

Then place housing back and torque to 25Nm .

The sump plug is 17mm . Sorry forgot to check the thread pitch i know someone will ask . My bad .

When taking the sump plug make sure the crash washer comes with it . The factory uses an aluminium one instead of copper and it usually stays on the pan . Make sure to remove it before putting the sump plug back in .
View attachment 7819684
Oil fill for the diesel is 7.1L at least that is how much i put in it and it seemed to like it .

When measuring the oil level the car likes all doors to be closed , on level ground , and in park or neutral .
View attachment 7819685
It revs a bit up to 1.1k and takes about 40 seconds .
View attachment 7819686
Thats it .
Sorry not a lot of pictures of the underside because i got caught in the rain . Classic .
Hope this helps .

Perfect, thanks a lot!

If everybody documents his maintenance and repair activities in a similarly excellent way like you, we will get to some really useful resources.

So although everybody could do this I've made a PDF for a chapter on the perhaps once upcoming forum made and compiled maintenance manual.

Logsplitter · Jul 11, 2023

Same oil filter for both the B57 diesel and B58 petrol

DCPU · Jul 11, 2023

Interesting to see your 7.1 litres, against the 7.0 litres in the table issued by customer services, vs the 500ml the onboard test says is still needed for off road.

Tinki · Jul 11, 2023

DCPU said:
Interesting to see your 7.1 litres, against the 7.0 litres in the table issued by customer services, vs the 500ml the onboard test says is still needed for off road.

View attachment 7819698

i am aware of the 500ml needed for off road , at this point the gren just got the same fill as it came from factory . the extra 100ml i put in is what is held in the oil filter . in my opinion is not going to harm anything . hence the 7.1 fill and not the 7 .

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