You now can’t use the Smartpass consumer output

[Lord Ripon USA]

Is the battery question related to engine choice in the ROW?

It seems like it’s actually wired to be able to start a diesel in cold conditions, which, of course is not optimal, if you were planning to use the second battery for the operation of accessories, while preserving the ability to start the gas engine.

Sort of a betwixt and between kind of thing.
I have two vehicles with twin battery set up. I would probably just choose to set up a Grenadier, the same way as my Kawasaki. Key operated solenoid, parallel when the engine is running, and independent when it is not.
we don’t get the diesel, so there’s no point in running the extra amperage through the electrical system.

 

[MTNDOG]

At this point, why don't we touch base on this after the holidays.

Sounds good, let's go ahead and level set this issue, table it till after the holidays and then circle back. Going to need you to work this weekend tho.

 

[Tinki]

Sounds good, let's go ahead and level set this issue, table it till after the holidays and then circle back. Going to need you to work this weekend tho.

Bingo ?

 

[Eric]

I already said it several times, and I will continue to repeat it, so that the Ineos "lurkers" can hopefully inform their management:

1. Customer Support is crap (but it isn't their fault, they are not "technical"), a waste of time for us!
2. Ineos doesn't treat us - early users (or Guinea Pigs) - as we deserve to be treated
3. Ineos doesn't keep their promises: giving us access to technical and maintenance information

I tell it to everybody interested in the Grenadier: "fantastic car, but Ineos and my dealer are underperforming concerning any question I ask".

Come on Jean, don't sit on the fence..

 

[Xrford]

I am going to make an educated guess of why they do not want us to use the consumer output on the ctek 120s. The ctek documentation says the consumers output can direct alternator power to the consumers under certain conditions.

” SMARTPASS 120S supplies consumers from the alternator instead of from the service battery while the service battery is charging, which permits faster charging.”

I suspect this functionality is causing problems with how Ineos has programmed the battery charging logic in the BCM. I suspect it causes the starter battery to be overcharged by the alternator and basically causing the starter battery to be “cooked“ resulting in premature failure of the starter battery.

 

[TD5-90]

I am going to make an educated guess of why they do not want us to use the consumer output on the ctek 120s. The ctek documentation says the consumers output can direct alternator power to the consumers under certain conditions.

” SMARTPASS 120S supplies consumers from the alternator instead of from the service battery while the service battery is charging, which permits faster charging.”

I suspect this functionality is causing problems with how Ineos has programmed the battery charging logic in the BCM. I suspect it causes the starter battery to be overcharged by the alternator and basically causing the starter battery to be “cooked“ resulting in premature failure of the starter battery.

IMHO, none of the batteries can ever be overcharged since alternator voltage is limited.
But may be that the way Coloumb Counting is done by INEOS, they do not take into account the current that is drained from the consumer terminal and thus arrive at a wrong SoC for the whole dual bat system (btw: Is the SoC percentage in a 2 bat system the assumed SoC of the 2 batteries together? Or only the starter?)
I will figure out when I install my 250. Unfortunately, this has to wait at the moment...
I really think about removing my fully paid 120 before handing in the car at the dealer for the software update.

Maybe the forum discussions on SoC made INEOS decide to throw the baby out with the bath water. Personally, I recommended several times here not to pay attention to those % figures, since they only can be wrong. Rather, in a lead acid battery system, pay attention to the voltage & charging current.

 

[Jean Mercier]

how Ineos has programmed the battery charging logic in the BCM.

Hmmm, an open question: quite some Grenadiers have a single battery, therefore, is the software really making the distinction between a Grenadier with only one battery and one with two batteries?
I think the only difference is the Smartpass! Only the Smartpass handles the charging status between the batteries, not the software.
But I could be wrong.
I am certainly not a battery expert.

 

[AnD3rew]

Hmmm, an open question: quite some Grenadiers have a single battery, therefore, is the software really making the distinction between a Grenadier with only one battery and one with two batteries?
I think the only difference is the Smartpass! Only the Smartpass handles the charging status between the batteries, not the software.
But I could be wrong.
I am certainly not a battery expert.

I wonder this as well. The simplest explanation is that the way the system is set up the second battery is just a jump starter for the main battery. All consumers come from main battery so if you flatten it with consumers then the second battery gets you out of trouble. It may well be that they are worried that if you run a consumer from the second battery you may end up with two flat batteries. But if thats the case then then need to tell us so we can make informed decisions about how to use the system. Because of their current stance on consumer output I have attached my fridge to the second battery which makes their field action useless in that case. They need to prosome clear instructions and details on how the system should be used and how it operates. They should know that anyone who options the dual batteries intends to add electrical stuff to their system.

 

[Xrford]

Hmmm, an open question: quite some Grenadiers have a single battery, therefore, is the software really making the distinction between a Grenadier with only one battery and one with two batteries?
I think the only difference is the Smartpass! Only the Smartpass handles the charging status between the batteries, not the software.
But I could be wrong.
I am certainly not a battery expert.

The key wording in the response email was “battery conditioner may not operate as intended”. I know of no physical hardware device that is a battery conditioner installed on the grenadier, so it must be software logic doing the “conditioning” of the battery by regulating the alternator output, and the consumer output is interfering with that logic, possibly causing the battery to be either in a constant overcharged or under charged state causing premature battery failures.

 

[TheDocAUS]

It is something easy to deal with, run your accessory circuit off the main or aux battery, not the SMARTPASS120S. There are several options depending on your setup.

1. use Unilugs on the main/aux battery;
2. use a spare stud on any Littelfuse busbar (if any);
3. attach the lugs directly onto the main/aux battery.

I will most likely use 1 or 2. I own a spare 7 stud Littelfuse busbar, so I may switch the aux 5 stud busbar to a 7 stud version. Worse case I will have two spare studs.

 

[MrMike]

I wonder this as well. The simplest explanation is that the way the system is set up the second battery is just a jump starter for the main battery. All consumers come from main battery so if you flatten it with consumers then the second battery gets you out of trouble. It may well be that they are worried that if you run a consumer from the second battery you may end up with two flat batteries. But if thats the case then then need to tell us so we can make informed decisions about how to use the system. Because of their current stance on consumer output I have attached my fridge to the second battery which makes their field action useless in that case. They need to prosome clear instructions and details on how the system should be used and how it operates. They should know that anyone who options the dual batteries intends to add electrical stuff to their system.

I think you are correct, I too gleaned this from reading the Smartpass info. The way it set up is odd from a 4x4 power user perspective considering 90% of us would run loads from what we think is the auxiliary battery.

 

[Tazzieman]

Are both batteries the Moll 81105 AGM and thus both suitable for cranking/deep cycle purposes?

 

[AnD3rew]

Are both batteries the Moll 81105 AGM and thus both suitable for cranking/deep cycle purposes?

Yep, I believe so

 

[Clark Kent]

Are both batteries the Moll 81105 AGM and thus both suitable for cranking/deep cycle purposes?

You probably meant EFB?

 

[AnD3rew]

You probably meant EFB?

Yes they are EFB not AGM

 

[K1LL3M]

The key wording in the response email was “battery conditioner may not operate as intended”. I know of no physical hardware device that is a battery conditioner installed on the grenadier, so it must be software logic doing the “conditioning” of the battery by regulating the alternator output, and the consumer output is interfering with that logic, possibly causing the battery to be either in a constant overcharged or under charged state causing premature battery failures.

This would line up with why the smart alternator wire is not connected on the units also. Has anybody noticed modifications to this, ie being cut, on their "ineos improvements"

 

[TD5-90]

Hmmm, an open question: quite some Grenadiers have a single battery, therefore, is the software really making the distinction between a Grenadier with only one battery and one with two batteries?
I think the only difference is the Smartpass! Only the Smartpass handles the charging status between the batteries, not the software.
But I could be wrong.
I am certainly not a battery expert.

That's exactly my point: If you have 200Ah rather than 100Ah, your % have to be calculated differently.
Also, the setup of the current sensors must only count the Ah going into & drawn from the battery. If you count combined charging and consumer Ah at charging, but the discharge path is different and _not_ through the current sensor, then you end up with a mess.
I don't have time at the moment to figure out in more detail. Have other things to do & the car simply has to drive...

 

[TD5-90]

The key wording in the response email was “battery conditioner may not operate as intended”. I know of no physical hardware device that is a battery conditioner installed on the grenadier,

Exactly.

so it must be software logic doing the “conditioning” of the battery by regulating the alternator output

It's just regulating the voltage, nothing else.

and the consumer output is interfering with that logic

I doubt there can be something like "charging logic". It's just basic Ah counting, maybe done in an unfavourable way...

possibly causing the battery to be either in a constant overcharged or under charged state causing premature battery failures.

As argued, I don't think it is ever possible to overcharge the batteries. Since the 120 either connects them in parallel, or leaves them disconnected (just as a traditional battery isolator relay), it just can be a matter of calculating that (way overrated...) % charge figure.

 

[Kruegerruda]

I know nothing about car electrics. And am therefore totally confused by the forum posts. Isn't the solution the CTEK 250?
Or is there a car electronics expert in the forum who can make clear technical statements? Sorry to say that, but I read a lot of opinions, not much concrete information.

 

[Kruegerruda]

...or buy an original CTEK 120, put the Ineos-part to Ebay, switch a CTEK 250 and CTEK battery-monitor to the 120 and every thing ist fine...?!