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Winch or not ?

AZGrenadier

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Why on the tow mounting plate are the winch controls shown? Is this not the internal winch control?


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grenadierboy

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Whether a winch is worth it or not depends on the type of driving a person does.

1) Highway/around town/never leaving marked, maintained roads (even dirt roads are marked and maintained in much of North America) - you'll never need it. Maybe, during recovery from emergency events like big storms, you'll use it to help others or tidy up a tree or something. Super rare and probably not worth it.

2) Weekends Off-Road/Technical Trail Running - These are known trails or routes that are run by 4x4s on a regular basis. They often have difficulty ratings, maps, and named obstacles. Some are even in pay-to-access parks, though many (like those in MOAB) are open to the public. In these environments, a winch is certainly handy, but you've got other options, like a hi-lift, a come-along, another truck in the convoy, or the device others have posted to get through the tricky bits, which are only as frequent as the difficulty of trail you chose. You also have the option of knowing if a trail is likely to require winching or not, and simply choosing a bypass or a different trail that does not require winching. Basically, you have a lot of agency in your final situation, if this is the kind of 4x4 driving you like to do, so a winch becomes much more of a "nice to have" feature if it opens you up to more trails and experiences, but isn't necessarily required and other types of recovery equipment will do.

3) Overland travel - this means there is at least some degree of going to unknown routes, typically quite remote, where other travelers are not common. In this situation, your ability to make forward progress can be non-existent without a winch; storms can wash out a road and that washout goes undiscovered for months. An early start to a rainy season can mean miles of mud tracks in every direction that you can barely drive on. And, the nature of the routes mean turning back might not be a viable option due to limited services/fuel. I don't consider a come-along or hi-lift to be a reasonable alternative in this situation, but that's mainly because of the relative efficiency of them; I've been in situations where we've needed to get winch assistance over a distance of several kilometers of mud up a very steep mountain trail. This is possible to do with a manual winching option, but really unpleasant and a huge time sink, and comes with a high risk of injury; not only is it more sets/resets of your equipment, but it's also the need to do all that hard work that we may not be accustomed to -- we're all way more likely to give ourselves a heart attack with a manual winch than we are to dance with the devil via a wayward shackle or cable (and I say that because it is easy to mitigate against a wayward shackle. Heart Attacks will sneak up on us -- we're not as young as we used to be!).

So my thoughts for the OP -- if you are in category 1, forget it, not worth it. If you are in category 2, it's probably easier to get it from the factory and have those options than it is to add it later. If you are in Option 3, I think it would be an error not to spec the winch.

All that being said, whatever recovery equipment you go for, spend some time with experts to really know how it all works -- winches, hi lifts, exhaust jacks, and more all have risks if used improperly, and improper use is super common socially. A well known YouTube tow-truck driver regularly uses his ball for recovery; he has a reason why he thinks thats OK from what I've seen. Even on the Grand Tour's latest special, there's a scene with a dicey recovery on a tow ball rather than a rated recovery point. So -- recovery gear is like a gun. It's reasonable to say "better to have it and not need it, than it is to need it and not have it" and I agree with that. But without proper knowledge, care in it's use, and effective storage, this stuff becomes more dangerous for you and those around you than it is helpful.
Hi COT's. I am still considering whether to go with a winch - so thanks for your interesting summary. I am currently in your option 2. However, I could venture into option 3 in a few years but maybe not.

So - what to do??

Therefore, maybe the Removable Winch with the towing mounting kit is a better option than the Integrated Winch or no Winch.

Benefits:
1. Don't need to be carrying around approx 40KG of winch for the 95% of the time I will be driving the G under your option 1 & 2 scenarios.
2. Can use the winch at the front or the rear of the car
3. Cheaper to purchase as an option
4. Easier to upgrade to an alternative winch in needed in the future

Disadvantages:
1. Rated 3.5 tonne (rather than 5.5.tonne)
2. Doesn't look as good as the Integrated Winch set-up
3. Front suspension not adjusted as is for the Integrated Winch - so marginal decrease in driving characteristics (I assume that the car is driven with the Removable Winch attached to the front or rear rather than transported in the rear cabin)?

What other issues/factors have I missed in this assessment.

Why isn't the removable Winch the more popular than the integrated winch?
 

DaveB

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Hi COT's. I am still considering whether to go with a winch - so thanks for your interesting summary. I am currently in your option 2. However, I could venture into option 3 in a few years but maybe not.

So - what to do??

Therefore, maybe the Removable Winch with the towing mounting kit is a better option than the Integrated Winch or no Winch.

Benefits:
1. Don't need to be carrying around approx 40KG of winch for the 95% of the time I will be driving the G under your option 1 & 2 scenarios.
2. Can use the winch at the front or the rear of the car
3. Cheaper to purchase as an option
4. Easier to upgrade to an alternative winch in needed in the future

Disadvantages:
1. Rated 3.5 tonne (rather than 5.5.tonne)
2. Doesn't look as good as the Integrated Winch set-up
3. Front suspension not adjusted as is for the Integrated Winch - so marginal decrease in driving characteristics (I assume that the car is driven with the Removable Winch attached to the front or rear rather than transported in the rear cabin)?

What other issues/factors have I missed in this assessment.

Why isn't the removable Winch the more popular than the integrated winch?
I wouldn't drive with the winch attached on the road, I doubt it would be legal and it would be very expensive in a minor crash.
It also covers the number plate.
Someone said Ineos were coming up with an attachment to mount it to the utility rail in the back.
I will leave it at home in the shed 90% of the time.
 

grenadierboy

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I wouldn't drive with the winch attached on the road, I doubt it would be legal and it would be very expensive in a minor crash.
It also covers the number plate.
Someone said Ineos were coming up with an attachment to mount it to the utility rail in the back.
I will leave it at home in the shed 90% of the time.
So Dave- you are going the removable winch route - because you don't need it 90% of the time?
 

ChasingOurTrunks

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Hi COT's. I am still considering whether to go with a winch - so thanks for your interesting summary. I am currently in your option 2. However, I could venture into option 3 in a few years but maybe not.

So - what to do??

Therefore, maybe the Removable Winch with the towing mounting kit is a better option than the Integrated Winch or no Winch.

Benefits:
1. Don't need to be carrying around approx 40KG of winch for the 95% of the time I will be driving the G under your option 1 & 2 scenarios.
2. Can use the winch at the front or the rear of the car
3. Cheaper to purchase as an option
4. Easier to upgrade to an alternative winch in needed in the future

Disadvantages:
1. Rated 3.5 tonne (rather than 5.5.tonne)
2. Doesn't look as good as the Integrated Winch set-up
3. Front suspension not adjusted as is for the Integrated Winch - so marginal decrease in driving characteristics (I assume that the car is driven with the Removable Winch attached to the front or rear rather than transported in the rear cabin)?

What other issues/factors have I missed in this assessment.

Why isn't the removable Winch the more popular than the integrated winch?

I ran a removable winch on my Jeep for years, so I have a lot of experience with that, and I now run a permanently mounted winch. For my previous setup, I used a receiver welded to a winch plate. You hit the nail on the head with the advantages, but there are a few disadvantages you may want to consider.

1) It sticks out the front quite a ways. Not a lot, but it can be enough to mess up approach angles in some situations. It also makes it more exposed to the elements - rain, road salt, snow, grime, etc. -- and as a result, you will likely experience a greater degree of wear and tear on your winch and it's associated kit -- gears, seals, and even the cables themselves will wear out quicker when stuck out in the elements. This happens when it's permanently mounted too but they tend to be a bit more protected so in my experience it's not as bad. The other aspect to this is how much further forward it puts the weight -- sometimes it's as much as a few feet ahead of the front axle, which can dramatically exacerbates the load on the front springs, especially if you are using a steel cable on a winch rated to 1.5x the GVWR of the rig it's attached to (as is the recommended practice). This also means it's not apples to apples when comparing the weight of an integrated vs receiver mount winch as integrated usually has less of a levering action on the suspension and thus has a much lower impact on handling of the rig. As far as in-use storage, I always drove around with mine when I was on an adventure - it was too much weight inside the vehicle, in an awkward shape that makes it tricky to pack around, and of course it would also make for a nasty 200lbs projectile in an accident. So, I would say count on it being stuck out off the front or back when you are on a trip that you might need it.

2) Engineering Quality - when a winch is mounted on a plate with a receiver, the receiver is almost always welded to the plate. I've seen good welds and I've seen bad welds - often from the same welder! - and I've seen welds that look good at first, but prove to be bad in the long run. With the number of manufacturers out there, if you are buying a winch plate off the rack, there was always (at least for me) a question of how good those welds actually are. Flaws in the welds are invisible, and when they fail, it's always a sudden, violent surprise without a lot of redundancy to keep bits of metal relatively contained, and usually there are only two critical beads, which isn't a lot. On the other hand, a permanent mount relies on bolts. Bolts that have been tested a million times to a known failure range. Even in the unlikely event of one being bad due to a manufacturing defect, there are usually a few more holding the winch in place. And the bumper itself provides a lot more structure for redundancy - first, it's typically bolted to the chassis so again, a good, solid, verifiable mounting point. But then, the nature of bending and welding bumpers together means it's never only two weld beads that hold the winch captive -- there's bends, gussets, extra reinforcement, etc. all through the bumper that means if something fails, it's unlikely to send bits flying.

3) Sidways pulls. Every receiver I've seen is rated for more-or-less straight line pulls. In reality, those are rare - it's not uncommon to have to pull at an angle. But that dramatically changes the forces at play, and makes the receiver mount less robust than a fixed application. You do lose a bit of versatility in terms of being able to pull forwards or backwards, but the right technique mitigates this quite a bit and often when I need to winch, it's to winch through - not to winch back and try again.

4) Convenience. There were a few times when I'd leave the winch behind because "Nah I won't need that on this trip" and then I absolutely needed it on those trips - either I could have helped someone else but was not properly equipped, or I've forgone some side roads and adventures worth having because I didn't have my recovery kit with me. I hated missing out on these so much that after a while, I stopped taking the winch receiver off and just ran with it attached all the time, which further exacerbated the "cons" I mentioned in item 1. In my case, no front number plates to obscure as DaveB said; I don't know about legality here in Canada; I never got stopped, but I know that the rules are a lot more strict elsewhere.

As for why they aren't more popular - two reasons. The first is looks. There's a lot of rigs with a Warn stuck on the front because that's the aesthetic. I would say this is the predominant reason why folks don't use the receiver mount more often, but I also think it's irrelevant to this decision as a winch isn't going to make too big a difference on the looks of a Grenadier any more than a claw has an impact on the looks of a hammer. It looks a certain way because it does a certain kind of job! However, for folks who do use winches regularly the above safety risks usually tip folks in favour of a permanently mounted solution. More robust, more redundancy, and thus it's a bit safer. The first and fourth reason are more personal preference.

I would say if you are currently option 2 and might go option 3, for me I'd go for the integrated winch now and get it wired up with a warranty. Odds are with inflation and such, the same winch will be a lot more expensive in a few years time! And, I guess the summary of it is: I've never heard anyone say "Glad I didn't have a winch". But I've heard plenty say the opposite -- "Glad I had a winch" -- or worse, "I wish I had a winch"!
 
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I have optioned the tow mounting kit for the front so I can add the removable winch if I want to.
It also allows me to attach a caravan, trailer or boat to the front when moving them around in tight spaces.
This also looks like it allows me to tow from the rear or the front.
3.5 tonne capacity is a bit of a limit but correct winching techniques can solve this.
Also allows me to leave it at home 90% of the time and only take it when going off road

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My thoughts exactly. Front towing mounting plate and removable winch, (purchased later) allows winch to be only carried on trips where it might be needed and not lugged around for easy trips (95%), and front and rear mounting options , block pulley doubles the capacity .
 
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Excellent posts @ChasingOurTrunks.

I guess for me it's also the convenience of deployment when needed. I can imagine me being in the muck, or cold, or pouring rain, then having to unload and mount up the portable.

If it's already hanging off the front, ok, may be no different. But in truth I haven't seen many vehicles driving around like that. Could be the loss of approach angle, could be the risk of theft back in town, IDK.

The portable sounds like a good, occasional use idea - and I haven't ruled it out for our order but...

It's nice to always have the winch with an integrated system. You never know when you might need it and sometime time is of the essence.

Once, we were on an easy gravel mountain road that quickly turned very icy. Like sheet ice. I got out to scout ahead and as I shuffled past the front bumper I realized the truck was slowly sliding backwards !

Because it was so handy, I was able to quickly unlocked the winch lever, grab the hook and secured the line to an adjacent tree, skate back to the winch and locked the lever. That stopped the slide, thankfully.
 

DaveB

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To clarify a couple of reasons for my choice.
  1. 90% of the time I will be driving to work, shops, restaurants, family homes on tar roads so winch will be at home, in the shed, wrapped in plastic.
  2. Anytime I know I might be going off-road I will take it with me.
  3. It will be inside the back of the vehicle and only taken out when required, or when the terrain gets to the point that it is likely to be required. No point trying to install it when the socket and hitch are under water/mud.
  4. As others have pointed out the winches are rarely/not usually in a straight line, but they are also not always in front of the vehicle.
  5. Often it is better to recover a vehicle back the way it came, as you know what is there, and the obstacle is in front of the vehicle.
  6. Typically a winch can be used to assist the vehicle to drive out by itself, not take the whole load.
  7. A winch is only one component of a recovery kit
  8. Often the vehicle with the winch is pulling out another vehicle. Often they need to turn around on the track as the vehicle was behind them. This is not always possible.
  9. The ability to mount the winch on the front or the rear makes it more versatile to me, but I could be wrong.
  10. 4WD's look more manly with a winch permanently mounted to the front so I will miss out on that part.
  11. Often the time comes to use the winch only to find it doesn't work as it hasn't been maintained and it is sitting on the front of the vehicle getting hammered by rain, hail snow, mud, dust and 40 Million bugs. Plus the odd kangaroo.
  12. I wonder if you could make up an extension for the cable enabling it to be temporarily mounted on the tow hitch of a nearby vehicle 5 or 10 metres away???
 

DaveB

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Excellent posts @ChasingOurTrunks.

I guess for me it's also the convenience of deployment when needed. I can imagine me being in the muck, or cold, or pouring rain, then having to unload and mount up the portable.

If it's already hanging off the front, ok, may be no different. But in truth I haven't seen many vehicles driving around like that. Could be the loss of approach angle, could be the risk of theft back in town, IDK.

The portable sounds like a good, occasional use idea - and I haven't ruled it out for our order but...

It's nice to always have the winch with an integrated system. You never know when you might need it and sometime time is of the essence.

Once, we were on an easy gravel mountain road that quickly turned very icy. Like sheet ice. I got out to scout ahead and as I shuffled past the front bumper I realized the truck was slowly sliding backwards !

Because it was so handy, I was able to quickly unlocked the winch lever, grab the hook and secured the line to an adjacent tree, skate back to the winch and locked the lever. That stopped the slide, thankfully.
Did you have time to slip into a phone booth to change your clothes?
Honestly I saw a similar thing happen in Victoria when a bunch of tourists drove up a steep tar road when it had just started snowing.
 

DCPU

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This is possible to do with a manual winching option, but really unpleasant and a huge time sink, and comes with a high risk of injury; not only is it more sets/resets of your equipment, but it's also the need to do all that hard work that we may not be accustomed to -- we're all way more likely to give ourselves a heart attack with a manual winch than we are to dance with the devil via a wayward shackle or cable (and I say that because it is easy to mitigate against a wayward shackle. Heart Attacks will sneak up on us -- we're not as young as we used to be!).
Why is it more sets of your equipment with a manual winch?

With regard to "winch assistance over a distance of several kilometers of mud up a very steep mountain trail" ~ what is the duty cycle of your winch?
 

Tazzieman

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We tend to travel alone. Hence the ability to winch from the rear of the vehicle is quite useful.
Swings and roundabouts , this winch stuff. Some people go looking for trouble and thus an inbuilt winch is mandatory.
Some people get off on being the guy who rescues everybody else.
I can tell you my wife is not impressed by getting bogged, nor the prospect of needing recovery. It's up there with her aversion to breaking a leg somewhere out of phone range.
 

DaveB

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We tend to travel alone. Hence the ability to winch from the rear of the vehicle is quite useful.
Swings and roundabouts , this winch stuff. Some people go looking for trouble and thus an inbuilt winch is mandatory.
Some people get off on being the guy who rescues everybody else.
I can tell you my wife is not impressed by getting bogged, nor the prospect of needing recovery. It's up there with her aversion to breaking a leg somewhere out of phone range.
My wife doesn't even like getting out of phone range
 

ECrider

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Wolf Creek springs to mind when I picture the outback and no phone signal. Still never finished that film, and have no intention to try.
 

grenadierboy

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We tend to travel alone. Hence the ability to winch from the rear of the vehicle is quite useful.
Swings and roundabouts , this winch stuff. Some people go looking for trouble and thus an inbuilt winch is mandatory.
Some people get off on being the guy who rescues everybody else.
I can tell you my wife is not impressed by getting bogged, nor the prospect of needing recovery. It's up there with her aversion to breaking a leg somewhere out of phone range.
So Tazzie-

Is that integrated or removable then?
 

DCPU

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So Tazzie-

Is that integrated or removable then?
There wouldn't need to be a choice if there was an option like the Foers Vector winch and you could pull in either direction...

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