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Winch or not ?

grenadierboy

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Where to carry?

If inside the car, I wouldn't like a 35 Kg missile lying around behind me. In particular not off road but neither at 130 Kmh on the motorway. Or you have a rig to fit it in - as large as a fridge ....

And having it mounted outside is not an option on holiday trips where you drive 1000 Km on the Autobahn and let your car on a parking area if you go for lunch or dinner.
emax - I guess strap it down to one of the rear utility rails - but that would probably mean needing to first take everything out that's on top of it which would be a pain but....

Another option would be to strap the portable winch to the roof rack at departure, it's then outside the car & accessible without needing to remove stuff from the rear.
 

DCPU

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Perfect excuse to see if they do a telescopic version of this to help you get it on the roofrack? 😜

Screenshot_20221005_231114.jpg
 
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Do we have an actual winch spec, speed, capacity and cable length? I was thinking I wanted an M8274 because of reliability and line length so I may skip the integrated option.
 

ChasingOurTrunks

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I'm not sure what manual winches have a 10 foot pull each time? A hi lift jack, pressed into use, might give you half that but the particular instance of the Grenadier integrated winch vs a "normal" manual winch then we are talking 15m vs 20m.

Why you would need to move the heavy bit. It works equally well attached at the vehicle end, moves with the vehicle and there's only the same rope/kit to pay out on each reset.

View attachment 7794349

I suppose it depends on how you use it, but from a purely practical perspective, here's my experience using manual winches as compared to mounted, electric winches that perhaps better illustrates what I mean. I'm not suggesting this is the best or only way of doing things, but it was my experience and why I prefer the mounted, powered winches.

Manual Winch (I'll use this term - there are purpose built manual winches, there are come-alongs, and there are HiLifts, all of which have been discussed -- all have advantages and disadvantages compared to each other, but all share disadvantages when compared with an electric mounted winch).

1) It's in my garage, I'm going on a trip. I need to put it into the vehicle somewhere, because unlike a receiver hitch I can't just pop it into the tow receptacle, pin it, and drive off. So now the object is taking up cargo space, and in my vehicles that's always been a premium. It came with a decent length cable, for sure....but that's heavy, and takes up even more space in the back. So I'll bring a shorter cable to save on space.

2) Now I've packed my manual winch, but was forced to leave the beer behind. That's OK, I'm on a grand adventure. And now I'm stuck in a mudpit. Better get the winch out.

3) Holy cow the ground is slippy. I will have to be extra careful lugging around this 40lbs hilift/come-along and its similarly heavy cable to put it into position where I can use it.

4) Ok, I've carefully made it to the front of the vehicle with this manual winch. I can hook one end to the rig, easy enough. Now I play out the cable to hook the other end to an anchor point. But then earlier, I decided to bring less cable because there was less room in my rig. So now the attachment points are limited.

5) I've been lucky - I found a suitable attachment point for my first pull! Time to start winching.

6) Click-clop-click-clop-click-clop -- Oh hey, the rig is moving a bit! That's great!


Fast forward some significant period of time -- how long depends on how many times you have to actuate the winch handle for every inch of forward movement.


Click-Clop-click-clop-Click clop -- That's it, I'm at the end of the pull. Time to reset. Man, I hope I don't have to do this too many more times, my arm is tired.

7) Assuming the winch is at the car end (which, I admit, is a good idea that I've not seen too many people use; for whatever reason the winch tends to be at the anchor end. Perhaps a safety concern with being too close to the vehicle if it shifts? Genuinely don't know). But in this case, it's at the car end, and I'm not aware of a safety issue so I don't have to move that. But I do have to hop in, set the brake, chock the wheels, and then disconnect from the anchor and play the cable back out to the next anchor point.

8) Repeat step 6, except now I'm probably sweating. A cold beer will taste great after this. Damnit I left them at home, didn't I? I guess water will do. But now I'm tired, sweaty and disappointed.

9) Repeat steps 6 through 8 for as many times as I need to to get through the mudpatch. I expect this will take significant time and exertion to achieve. There's also increased risk of a slip and fall, which in remote areas, is a serious concern. Add on bad weather - like below zero snow conditions, which are common in my part of the world -- and a manual winch goes from being annoyingly hard work, to being dangerously annoying hard work as frostbite and numb hands getting pinched becomes a serious concern.

As contrasted with a mounted winch:

1) It's always there. I check it every oil change for function. I'm not worried about it taking up valuable cargo space. I'm already in the mountains, bogged in the mud. Wow - the ground is slippy. Good thing I only have to move a 5-lbs shackle or straps, and not a 50-100 lbs weight on this terrain.

2) Because it's always there, I have 50' of light, synthetic rope ready to go on the spool of my electric winch. I hop out, flip the clutch on the winch, and freespool the rope to an anchor - and I've got more options in anchors, because I didn't cut the rope length to save space/weight.

3) I connect to the anchor, hop back into the vehicle, push a button to respool the winch AND use the vehicle's own power to make forward progress. This takes probably less than 5-10 minutes, and even in bad mud my tires may find enough purchase to keep going under their own steam. With me outside the car operating a manual winch, I might miss those traction opportunities completely as I'm unable to use the vehicle's own power to aid in the recovery. Obviously this changes if there are two people present, but do you think I'd leave the beer behind if I could instead tell my friend to take his own rig? ;)

4) I get to the extension of my pull, set the park brake, chock the wheels, spool out the rope again to a new anchor.

5) I repeat steps 3) and 4) till I'm through the mudpatch. I'm in and out of my rig less often, I'm not exerting myself in a mudpit on the side of a mountain, and so I'm generally safer as in this scenario there are both fewer resets, and the resets that are required are a bit easier and more comfortable since I'm spending most of my time sitting in the Air Con'd or heated cab. And the less exertion is no joke, nor is it completely based on lazyness on my part -- heart attacks spike every year at the first snowfall around here, because folks aren't used to unusual periods of intense activity -- they ain't fit enough -- and their hearts give out. Unless a person is manually winching regularly or in reasonably sound health and good overall fitness, I think it's a bad idea for anyone in my demographic or older to assume they will be able to easily run a manual winch on that one or two weekends a year they need to do it.


I'm definitely not suggesting manual winches won't work -- they absolutely will and I'm sure for some folks it's the best option. But in my experience, electric are way better if the winch is expected to see any sort of regular use in a travelling context, especially with long runs of repeated winching. The advantages vastly outweigh the negatives. On the other hand, not everyone has $2k to spend on a winch-compatible bull bar and another $1k for the winch itself - a manual winch is way better than no winch at all!
 

DenisM

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Wolf Creek springs to mind when I picture the outback and no phone signal. Still never finished that film, and have no intention to try.
Sorry to hijack the thread.. my neighbour a few yrs ago was a senior set designer on the Wolf Creek movie. He took his son on a road trip from Brisbane to Adelaide for a prelaunch showing of the movie. Their plan was to return home via the inland route visiting Wolf Creek along the way. He'd not seen the final cut of the movie at this stage. After seeing the movie they returned via the coast road....🤣🤣🤣
 

DenisM

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Back on topic😉...
FOR SOLID AXLE VEHICLES ONLY
Rather than pulling vehicles with recovery points attached to steel bumpers, a much improved pull efficiency is obtained by attaching a long strap to each side of the front axle housing.The two straps meet at the apex of a virtual triangle with the axle housing as the base. The straps are then rolled up and fixed to bull bar or bumper. When time comes for recovery, straps are rolled out and attached to the "pulling" force. The force path is directly to the axle, not through the chassis via suspension etc. It's akin to "pulling oneself up by one's bootstraps". The difference is amazing...far less power is needed to "roll" the front wheels up and out of the bog rather than the wheels being "pushed" into the wall of the bog hole when recovery force is exerted from a higher point
A good example is a shopping trolley where the front wheels come up against a gutter. If you push the trolley it stops, try and pull it from the front of the basket it may tip end over end. Pull it from the front down low and you exercise a partial lifting moment which helps the front wheels negotiate the obstacle. Same when you apply a pull force to the beam axle directly...

I hope this makes sense. I have never had a fitted winch, but I have twice recovered a P38 Range Rover out of a sand bog with an Aldi " pullalong" (tirfor type knockoff with a max 1000k load ) using the axle strap method (I then wished I'd fitted the Aldi winch which sits alone in my study cupboard but it wasn't worth the major engineering fitup cost)
Sorry for the long post
I'm undecided re winch but was thinking of the portable hitch receiver front/rear option. Now I'm not sure🤔
 

grenadierboy

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Thanks Denis & all

I am loving this topic - it is a great example of the benefits of a forum - the pooling of knowledge, experience & ideas.

Like you - I've been assessing which route to take in this: integrated winch; portable winch; mechanical device; nothing.

In all the off road driving I have done - I've never ever had to use a winch of any description, (probably because I've never done hard core 4x4 off road driving - my off road driving is to get to my camping, hiking, fishing spot - on reasonable gravel roads & typically in the summer months) so I am finding this topic a great learning.

I increasingly feel that I will end up with an integrated winch, especially as I want to "future proof" my Grenadier if I decide to venture into overland driving.
 
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Okay, I'd like to toss in another consideration: lockers.

I've never had a vehicle with lockers, so I have always relied on having a mounted winch.

I'd spec our Gren with axle lockers, plus the central transfer case locker. I have to believe those traction aids would make a big difference on how often one might need to use a winch. But, not having much experience with 4x4 ing other than my own (we almost always travel solo) it's a bit tricky for me to quantify it.
 

DenisM

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In both cases with the P38 Rangie, if I'd had lockers (I ticked the box for the Rough Stuff option on the IG😜) and a set of Maxtrax there'd have been no need for the Aldi "pullalong"... Hard core it wasn't... Noosa beach🤣🤣🤣
 
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In both cases with the P38 Rangie, if I'd had lockers (I ticked the box for the Rough Stuff option on the IG😜) and a set of Maxtrax there'd have been no need for the Aldi "pullalong"... Hard core it wasn't... Noosa beach🤣🤣🤣
Yup, that's it, you don't need to go hard core to get stuck. I know I'm not the first guy to mess up just turning the vehicle around, doing a poor job of backing up, dropping a wheel of the edge of the road, sliding into snow bank ... err, sand dune etc.

Stuff can happen, even on the sunniest of days.🤓
 

DaveB

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Centre locker is a must to make it a 4WD as opposed to an AWD and is standard on the IG
A rear locker is a minimum requirement for offroad and makes a huge difference.
Front lockers are more nice to have and only get used in a limited number of applications as they impact on the steering
If you are on a steep, rocky, muddy, loose track locking all 3 is going to get you through easiest, assuming you pick the right line and now how to drive.
It will at least delay the need for the winch, which you may or may not have selected.
 

ChasingOurTrunks

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Great points by @painter, @DenisM, and @DaveB.

The Gren will be my first rig that I feel will be fitted up the way I want it to be for recovery. I used to drive a Jeep Rubicon, so I had front and rear lockers as well as winch; in most situations the lockers were enough to get me through so the winch wasn't used as often. In the truck before that, I had no lockers, but I did have a manual winch, and I ended up having to use it a lot. My current rig has an auto-locking rear, and its like a mountain goat -- I don't even need to think about it, it just engages when traction is compromised and away we go most of the time. I've not had to use my winch on my new truck yet, and that could be for two reasons -- first, I've been a bit more cautious in my off-roading as I became a dad 2 years ago, and really rough off-road is not ideal for a baby in a car seat. Second, is I've added a set of maxtrax (Well, cheap copies). I've reached for them a half-dozen times for myself and another half-dozen for others; on one occasion the Amazon truck was stuck outside my house in mid December, so my MaxTrax are responsible for saving Christmas that year. You are welcome.

I would wager that without the traction aides, I would have had to use my winch more. For the weight of a set of maxtrax, they are a fantastic addition to any recovery kit and make recoveries a lot easier. I think that my first layer on the Gren will be front and rear lockers -- easy to engage without even having to get out, and that gives you the most mechanically gentle recovery under the vehicles own power. If that doesn't work, the max trax will be put to use. In the rare cases where that's not enough, the winch will be there as backup (with the usual accessories - straps, snatch blocks, etc.). Axe and a shovel are in there by default, and have their uses for recovery too.

The Maxtrax also have the advantage of being handy to lift a corner of my rig by an inch or four if my camp site makes my roof tent a little wonky. The lockers have the added advantage of making me feel like a B-17pilot because I'll have switches that do stuff above my head. Jokes aside, a few layers of redundancy for recovery is generally a very good idea, and the MaxTrax are a game changer for recovery work.
 

DCPU

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Back on topic😉...
FOR SOLID AXLE VEHICLES ONLY
Rather than pulling vehicles with recovery points attached to steel bumpers, a much improved pull efficiency is obtained by attaching a long strap to each side of the front axle housing.The two straps meet at the apex of a virtual triangle with the axle housing as the base. The straps are then rolled up and fixed to bull bar or bumper. When time comes for recovery, straps are rolled out and attached to the "pulling" force. The force path is directly to the axle, not through the chassis via suspension etc. It's akin to "pulling oneself up by one's bootstraps". The difference is amazing...far less power is needed to "roll" the front wheels up and out of the bog rather than the wheels being "pushed" into the wall of the bog hole when recovery force is exerted from a higher point
A good example is a shopping trolley where the front wheels come up against a gutter. If you push the trolley it stops, try and pull it from the front of the basket it may tip end over end. Pull it from the front down low and you exercise a partial lifting moment which helps the front wheels negotiate the obstacle. Same when you apply a pull force to the beam axle directly...

I hope this makes sense. I have never had a fitted winch, but I have twice recovered a P38 Range Rover out of a sand bog with an Aldi " pullalong" (tirfor type knockoff with a max 1000k load ) using the axle strap method (I then wished I'd fitted the Aldi winch which sits alone in my study cupboard but it wasn't worth the major engineering fitup cost)
Sorry for the long post
I'm undecided re winch but was thinking of the portable hitch receiver front/rear option. Now I'm not sure🤔
Hey if it works it works, but for me, I'm only seeing potential problems with that technique.

Having straps hanging underneath a vehicle whilst driving doesn't sound a good idea - snagging them with not be good for either the vehicle or the strap.

My axles, and many other, have brake lines, and other bits of kit routed along them. Wrapping a strap would be hard not to crush/snag one of these.

OK if you have clear path to the front of the vehicle from the axle but you'd have to be careful with steering arms, track rods etc.

Wouldn't the lifting moment you describe be easier to apply closer to the front of the vehicle? Never done it myself but online you can see people applying this technique by running the winch line over a spare tyre located immediately in front of the vehicle.
Screenshot_20211214_174455_com.google.android.youtube.jpg



Old(ish) military recovery manuals suggest applying the technique like this:

Untitled.jpg

For a Grenadier, I wonder if you could improvise this with a length of 4x4 or the toe of a hi lift jack?
 
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Looks like it will be a bit more work than we thought to fit flip plate but not impossible.
1665137414321.png
 

DCPU

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A different crossmember ~ that I didn't expect.

Unless by crossmember he's referring to the actual tray/parts the winch will sit in. From looking at the two bumpers it appears that the winch sits further back in the plastic bumper version.

Screenshot_20210217_064440_com.google.android.youtube.jpg


I had wondered if it might be as simple as just swapping out the central bumper section (200):

Screenshot_20221007_114654.jpg
 

Greg

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If you option the front towing plate with the steel bumper, would you get a hinged number plate holder?
 

DCPU

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We should know the answer to that by now... but we don't 😢
 

Tazzieman

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Well I just got back from a walk with my wife and she has decided for us. Says we should just get the integrated front winch, despite the cost.
She's not keen on us lugging a demountable winch around and she's watched too many you tubes of vehicles stuck at crazy angles in all terrains.
Getting stranded is a sure way to kill the romance of a holiday I suppose.

My reply "it's only money".
 
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