Who is experiencing software or electrical gremlins?

[Tazzieman]

I am going to sound completely idiotic here but i think this needs to be said .

It's a reasonable explanation for some of the issues.
No need for lawyering up and class actions yet

 

[grenadierboy]

I am going to sound completely idiotic here but i think this needs to be said .
What if all the crazyness is simply because vehicles have been built and sat around for so long with brand new batteries that never got properly cycled ? Is this just a matter if taking the car for a long drive at highway speeds to get everything settled in ?
I remember when my bmw had a battery ready to die i would get all sorts of weird stuff going on .
Maybe i am naive or simply stupid who knows ….
Time will tell i guess …

unlikely.

A cycle is a full discharge and full recharge.

The Grenadier leaves the factory with a fully charged battery, gets transported to agent and sits there for 6 weeks. Maybe started a few times but it's hardly likely that the battery will be fully discharged.

 

[Tazzieman]

unlikely.

A cycle is a full discharge and full recharge.

The Grenadier leaves the factory with a fully charged battery, gets transported to agent and sits there for 6 weeks. Maybe started a few times but it's hardly likely that the battery will be fully discharged.

So just gremlins then?
Do they have those in Hambach?

 

[emax]

It’s interesting as a new boy to the forum to see that there are a lot of threads in which people express frustration at the delays in delivery and others bemoaning software faults in the as delivered vehicles

I’m sure as a manufacturer there is pressure on the one hand to delay release to address all or at least most issues and on the other hand pressure to get cars into the hands of customers

I agree to what @mgohillbilly answered.

The cause is simple: Broken promises.

 

[emax]

Results:
- all yellow error messages are caused by a deviation of current „values“ or measurements from the standard values
...
- they are the result of multiple things: temperature, humidity, engine temp, and whatever else

Of course they are. Electronic sensors provide vast amounts of data, much of which is nonsensical (no pun intended). This is knowledge from the first semester for electronics engineers. Temperature, humidity, engine temperature, even vibration - this is the normal habitat of sensors. This is their fateful destiny.

The trick is in the filtering. I've had many a battle with implausible data from sensors. But since they are capable of providing thousands of measurements per second, you can (and actually have to) write algorithms that throw away implausible values. This is usually done using a Bayesian minimum variance estimator (often implemented as a Kalman filter). This is exactly the kind of knowledge that makes a Bosch system a Bosch system and makes a car a reliable car. And it's why these high-end products are so expensive.

After filtering, you average out the values and get a (reasonably) reliable result.

I have often seen OBD logs from my old W203. It produces dozens of error messages every minute, but if they are found to be implausible, they never reach the cockpit and are just stored as an MRU list in the ECU memory only for debugging purposes.

With respect ot what @PBD has experienced, I find it totally unacceptable that INEOS unleashes such an immature system on the customers and ruins its trust, which is the perfect way to shoot itself out of the market after the disastrous web launch and the totally insane billing and the just plain wrong built cars (wrong color, wrong engine ... unbelievable) let alone the completely incompetent "Customer Support".

The technician is of course right with his explanations, but what good is that? In the end, he's just the whipping boy who has to take the brunt of everything that management has screwed up.

What a shit.

Edit: refinements

 

[emax]

Fingers crossed thus software flash doesn't take long to come

If they say August be prepared for a Christmas gift.

 

[Schoeniman]

Of course they are. Electronic sensors provide vast amounts of data, much of which is nonsensical (no pun intended). This is knowledge from the first semester for electronics engineers. Temperature, humidity, engine temperature, even vibration - this is the normal habitat of sensors. This is their fateful destiny.

The trick is in the filtering. I've had many a battle with implausible data from sensors. But since they are capable of providing thousands of measurements per second, you can (and actually have to) write algorithms that throw away implausible values. This is usually done using a Bayesian minimum variance estimator (often implemented as a Kalman filter). This is exactly the kind of knowledge that makes a Bosch system a Bosch system and makes a car a reliable car. And it's why these high-end products are so expensive.

After filtering, you average out the values and get a (reasonably) reliable result.

I have often seen OSB logs from my old W203. It produces dozens of error messages every minute, but if they are found to be implausible, they never reach the cockpit and are just stored as an MRU list in the ECU memory only for debugging purposes.

I find it totally unacceptable that INEOS unleashes such an immature system on the customers and ruins its trust, which is the perfect way to shoot itself out of the market after the disastrous web launch and the totally insane billing and the just plain wrong built cars (wrong color, wrong engine ... unbelievable) as well as the completely incompetent "Customer Support".

The technician is of course right with his explanations, but what good is that? In the end, he's just the whipping boy who has to take the brunt of everything that management has screwed up.

What a shit.

Great explanation! Spot on and I agree with your Ineos criticism.

 

[emax]

This is pure speculation, but their website has been noticeably buggy (I wasn't even able to make a reservation for a long time) and showed signs of not being properly tested. Maybe this points to a deeper culture problem? Was the desire to make an old-school car so great that no thought was given to the software, and they ended up hiring a sub-standard team?

Maybe they sourced it out to Bangalore where the developers copied & pasted from the TukTuk source code.

 

[DenisM]

Of course they are. Electronic sensors provide vast amounts of data, much of which is nonsensical (no pun intended). This is knowledge from the first semester for electronics engineers. Temperature, humidity, engine temperature, even vibration - this is the normal habitat of sensors. This is their fateful destiny.

The trick is in the filtering. I've had many a battle with implausible data from sensors. But since they are capable of providing thousands of measurements per second, you can (and actually have to) write algorithms that throw away implausible values. This is usually done using a Bayesian minimum variance estimator (often implemented as a Kalman filter). This is exactly the kind of knowledge that makes a Bosch system a Bosch system and makes a car a reliable car. And it's why these high-end products are so expensive.

After filtering, you average out the values and get a (reasonably) reliable result.

I have often seen OSB logs from my old W203. It produces dozens of error messages every minute, but if they are found to be implausible, they never reach the cockpit and are just stored as an MRU list in the ECU memory only for debugging purposes.

I find it totally unacceptable that INEOS unleashes such an immature system on the customers and ruins its trust, which is the perfect way to shoot itself out of the market after the disastrous web launch and the totally insane billing and the just plain wrong built cars (wrong color, wrong engine ... unbelievable) as well as the completely incompetent "Customer Support".

The technician is of course right with his explanations, but what good is that? In the end, he's just the whipping boy who has to take the brunt of everything that management has screwed up.

What a shit.

Have observed similar snafu situations arise in avionics and combat systems the complexity can be overwhelming at times....

 

[Solmanic]

Of course they are. Electronic sensors provide vast amounts of data, much of which is nonsensical (no pun intended). This is knowledge from the first semester for electronics engineers. Temperature, humidity, engine temperature, even vibration - this is the normal habitat of sensors. This is their fateful destiny.

The trick is in the filtering. I've had many a battle with implausible data from sensors. But since they are capable of providing thousands of measurements per second, you can (and actually have to) write algorithms that throw away implausible values. This is usually done using a Bayesian minimum variance estimator (often implemented as a Kalman filter). This is exactly the kind of knowledge that makes a Bosch system a Bosch system and makes a car a reliable car. And it's why these high-end products are so expensive.

After filtering, you average out the values and get a (reasonably) reliable result.

I have often seen OSB logs from my old W203. It produces dozens of error messages every minute, but if they are found to be implausible, they never reach the cockpit and are just stored as an MRU list in the ECU memory only for debugging purposes.

With respect ot what @PBD has experienced, I find it totally unacceptable that INEOS unleashes such an immature system on the customers and ruins its trust, which is the perfect way to shoot itself out of the market after the disastrous web launch and the totally insane billing and the just plain wrong built cars (wrong color, wrong engine ... unbelievable) let alone the completely incompetent "Customer Support".

The technician is of course right with his explanations, but what good is that? In the end, he's just the whipping boy who has to take the brunt of everything that management has screwed up.

What a shit.

Edit: refinements

Agree. It definitely seems to me like they may still need to find out the correct sensitivity of many systems. If all these sensors are throwing up measurements that are simply being identified as "out of range" then it triggers a warning light or alert. I imagine it will take Ineos, with the help of early adopters' real world experiences, to fine tune what "out of range" actually needs to be before it results in a warning.

If anyone ever looks at the attribute manager in Microsoft Windows, there are hundreds of warnings and alerts that all remain under the hood. Only serious or critical ones actually result in something popping up, or a restart.

As for TPMS, I've never driven a vehicle with it that hasn't at some stage thrown an alert.

 

[Deleted User Account.]

They should throw in a couple rolls of black electrical tape with every purchase.

Honestly though, seeing how ineos deals with this will say a lot about them. Here's hoping they get things sorted quickly.

 

[DaveB]

So just gremlins then?
Do they have those in Hambach?

Yes. Clearly someone let them get wet

 

[Tazzieman]

Yes. Clearly someone let them get wet

I knew there were elves. Now we have gremlins. It's a Euro thing.
Sir Jim's fairy tale has almost reached the final chapter.
A few big bad wolves having a snap notwithstanding.

 

[Clark Kent]

Have observed similar snafu situations arise in avionics and combat systems the complexity can be overwhelming at times....

I hear you there Denis.

I won't mention names or brands, but my military customer has regular avionics glitches when the aircraft is powered up and especially on the first start of the day. Lots of sensors reporting through a series of data buses which results in flooded bus-controllers then ECUs doing their best to filter what's valid, not valid or an actual fault. Often the operating crew make it worse by moving the flight controls or powering up mission systems before the air-vehicle tests have completed. Tilt, Game Over (a reference for you old pinball guys). Solution? Power down, wait, power up again. Ask the crew (again) to sit still until the tests are complete. That's on a US$50M very mature design aircraft with a lot more development time and cost than a v1.0 Grenadier.

In some respects Ineos are more of a system integrator than a bespoke constructor. That's a rich environment for mismatch between specs and tolerances when Sensor A is talking to ECU B to display a result on VDU C when A>B>C all come from different suppliers. A software fix may be needed to trap rubbish values before they present an indication to the driver, but I would put a few dollars on the underlying cause also being something basic like a spec mismatch, or even bad earths/grounds, or possibly even too many grounds which creates ground loops and different electrical potential between harnesses and segments (it matters). I would be unsurprised if there was some body coating under an earth connection or two. And then there is low battery volts/voltage drop. There is a shale blue PTO2 doing the rounds in Australia that has/had a random issue with the alarm going off after it had been parked for a couple of days on static display. The Ineos guys thought is was due to voltage drop because the doors were open all day and the interior lamps were draining the battery.

I would be interested in a bit deeper analysis of the faults that have been reported:

• cold start/hot start?
• stationary/during operation?
• reproducable/how?
• diesel/petrol (assumes different cranking amps and battery voltage drop between B58 and B57)?
• warm up time allowed/cold drive-off?
• auxiliary battery/no aux?
• configuration
  • two-door, five door, Trialmaster, Fieldmaster, Stationwagon, options, LHD or RHD?
• does putting a trickle charger on the battery overnight make a difference (slow battery drain overnight)?
• does starting with a lithium jump starter connected make a difference (good surface voltage but slow recovery after cranking)?
• what is the voltage across the battery terminals before, during and after start? What about 30 seconds after start?
• what voltage is the ECU reporting versus a measurement taken at the battery terminals (dongle/code reader required)?

Are there any commonality amongst these variables that might point to a root cause, or are the reported faults totally unrelated and random? Ultimately this is for Ineos to investigate and I'm sure they'll be onto it already so this is just my postulation based on a working life of troubleshooting simple and complex systems - and because I'm interested and invested.

I never buy v1.0 of anything and yet I have been waiting 18 months to take ownership of a vehicle from a manufacturer with no sales record; that I have seen three times; have driven only once, off-road at less than 30km/h; and all as a late-stage prototype. How did I get here? I was convinced from the start that the potential of the Grenadier to be a good fit for my use case was worth the risk and hassle of a few v1.0 teething troubles that Ineos would be obliged to deal with anyway.

Ineos have come too far since 2017 to let this project fail at the 11th hour. Keep the faith, it'll be good!

 

[OGrid]

Out of interest does anyone who is encountering the bing & bong sound and light show (alarms and warning lights) have an auxiliary battery setup?

Or the reverse question, for those currently not having any alerting issues, and never did…do you have the auxiliary battery option on your vehicle?

 

[Tom D]

Its definitely true that a depleted battery can cause issues on modern vehicles. Let’s hope that most of these are caused by vehicles sitting around for a long time.. I’m surprised that dealers aren’t charging batteries or running vehicles before delivery.

 

[AWo]

Does the engine have an oil stick or is the oil level monitored by a sensor only?

What about the automatic gearbox? Does that one have an oil stick?

Cheers
AWo

 

[DCPU]

Its definitely true that a depleted battery can cause issues on modern vehicles. Let’s hope that most of these are caused by vehicles sitting around for a long time.. I’m surprised that dealers aren’t charging batteries or running vehicles before delivery.

It's part of the PDI:

"Check battery State of Charge (SOC) in the vehicle infotainment unit (Vehicle information - Offroad )
Charge the vehicle battery until the SOC is at least 85%"

 

[Eric]

Yes this may turn out to be a very minor problem, possibly brought about by the vehicles concerned being stood for months in transport mode with a stop start battery. I certainly don't know. What I do know is we now live in the age of global social media and these issues are spreading in the public domain because of social media, in days gone by public perception was muted. And these teething troubles are hitting Ineos in their Achilles heel, "customer service and customer communication" this is damaging the launch in a big way. It is not good enough to say there will be software to sort it in a month. Their record on timescales for delivery of promises speaks for itself. Ineos really needs to grasp ownership of the Customer and deal direct with the people having issues quickly and honestly and get a control of the situation.

 

[Beormund]

Its definitely true that a depleted battery can cause issues on modern vehicles. Let’s hope that most of these are caused by vehicles sitting around for a long time.. I’m surprised that dealers aren’t charging batteries or running vehicles before delivery.

I thought that was one of the items in the PDI form - check battery is charged above a certain level.